Balanced pedaling
Comments
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Then I'm probably not alone in not understanding why stronger legs don't have a bearing on overall power and I'm sorry that people get so cross for me wanting to 'get it'.
We crossed there. I get that the imbalance makes no difference to performance and have said I get that from the start. It's the stronger legs wont affect power output bit I can't get.0 -
Time for work.0
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Eebijeebi wrote:It's the stronger legs wont affect power output bit I can't get.
Because cycling ability is not limited by strength - it's an endurance sport. The actual strength needed to push pedals is quite low - and most people already have that strength capability. The ability to 'keep pushing' the pedals is dependent on aerobic capability, not on how strong your legs are.0 -
So why do all those guys on the telly have such big quads?
I'll get my coat................0 -
Can't find a delete post button?0
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Eebijeebi wrote:I clone myself x 2. Everything except leg strength is the same.
Me A is my imbalanced left right strength.
Me B is both equal to my weaker left.
Me C is both equal to my stronger right.
Is it the case that performance will be exactly the same in all three cases? And that would include accelerating, sprinting, powering up a short steep hill?
Again you mix up (maximum) strength and anaerocbic/aerobic sustainable power.
Maximum strength legs=maximum strength left leg+ maximum strength right leg.
Training strength of weaker leg can equal or raise maximum strength legs, only for maximum strength
I do not know any form of cycling that requires maximum strength in the legs.0 -
'Stronger' cyclists don't make more force. I can produce 400W at 95rpm. The difference between me and a 'strong' cyclist is that I can sustain that for a few minutes and they can manage it for an hour. Stronger legs would be easy, but useless...
Paul0 -
Keezx wrote:Eebijeebi wrote:I clone myself x 2. Everything except leg strength is the same.
Me A is my imbalanced left right strength.
Me B is both equal to my weaker left.
Me C is both equal to my stronger right.
Is it the case that performance will be exactly the same in all three cases? And that would include accelerating, sprinting, powering up a short steep hill?
Again you mix up (maximum) strength and anaerocbic/aerobic sustainable power.
Maximum strength legs=maximum strength left leg+ maximum strength right leg.
Training strength of weaker leg can equal or raise maximum strength legs, only for maximum strength
I do not know any form of cycling that requires maximum strength in the legs.
So an FTP test would be an identical result for A,B and C?0 -
We are now firmly in the Twilight Zone....0
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At the risk of being burned at the stake here's one last go. I'm not trying to upset anyone, wind anyone up or anything of the sort. I'm truly trying to get my head around something that isn't sitting easy with me.
If -
I can pedal with my right leg only (say for an hour - whatever you like) at X watts.
I can pedal with my left leg only the same at Y watts.
X is greater than Y.
Why is it not beneficial in terms of total output to increase the power/strength/muscle whatever you want to call it of Y to add to my overall output of watts.
And I understand that the same increase could be made by keeping the imbalance - but that's not the question. It's whether or not there would be any gain in overall output.
Why query this? Well as I'm getting better (from a very low start point) I can push a bigger gear at the same rpm and heart rate. I get about holding the power output and time of holding it all coming from aerobic/anaerobic capacity etc - but how do I physically push a harder gear with less difficulty if my leg muscles aren't stronger than they were too?0 -
AAAARGH0
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I think some of the confusion comes from how we define strength. We use the word in various ways, Stannard was the strongest on Saturday etc.
In this context though 'strength' means maximal force production. Outside of standing starts for track sprinters, cyclists never get close to maximal force production on the bike, therefore it doesn't matter how strong you are.0 -
Eebijeebi wrote:but how do I physically push a harder gear with less difficulty if my leg muscles aren't stronger than they were too?
You are able to sustain the same or higher effort for longer, thanks to improved aerobic fitness. If you accept that you aren't pushing the pedals with anything close your maximum leg strength (which you aren't), then you should also accept (by simple deduction) that stronger legs are not required in order to cycle faster.0 -
You will always have an imbalance.
So focus on your training to increase your overall level of fitness [or FTP - whatever your goal is] and accept the fact it will never be a perfect 50/50 split.VO2 Max - 79 ml/kg/min
W/kg - 4.90 -
Imposter wrote:Eebijeebi wrote:but how do I physically push a harder gear with less difficulty if my leg muscles aren't stronger than they were too?
You are able to sustain the same or higher effort for longer, thanks to improved aerobic fitness. If you accept that you aren't pushing the pedals with anything close your maximum leg strength (which you aren't), then you should also accept (by simple deduction) that stronger legs are not required in order to cycle faster.
Right, let's see if I'm there.
In my old gym days we would, e.g. leg press a huge weight at close to failure. Recover and gain leg power.
When I used to cycle I'd be strong then at some point my legs would just die and go directly to cramps etc and no recovering from it. I trained for upper body and sprinting (rugby) and was never any good at endurance, a few slow half marathons but no more, always a sprinter.
What's being said here is that the legs don't work to failure (been close on some hills) therefore max power isn't relevant/used. So the leg muscle changes I'm seeing are what I would have called 'conditioning' in those days, i.e. where someone would train high rep/low weight and not be looking for bulk but an increase in the reps. Transfer that into pedals and it's on and on ability, not being able to push a monstrous gear for a minute.
Is that it?
If so I can get that, however, already nagging is the question, 'Isn't it better to be operating at a lower percentage of max power as part of the ability to keep going for longer. Would not the two relate?'
Don't answer that - I'll shut up and read some more.0 -
You have to be careful with terminology again here - any time you talk about gaining the ability to produce power, that is always in relation to duration. The durations over which you gained power on the leg press will be shorter than the ranges that are useful for endurance cycling. (if for the sake of argument we assume leg press gains transfer to the bike)Eebijeebi wrote:
Right, let's see if I'm there.Imposter wrote:Eebijeebi wrote:but how do I physically push a harder gear with less difficulty if my leg muscles aren't stronger than they were too?
You are able to sustain the same or higher effort for longer, thanks to improved aerobic fitness. If you accept that you aren't pushing the pedals with anything close your maximum leg strength (which you aren't), then you should also accept (by simple deduction) that stronger legs are not required in order to cycle faster.
In my old gym days we would, e.g. leg press a huge weight at close to failure. Recover and gain leg power.
When I used to cycle I'd be strong then at some point my legs would just die and go directly to cramps etc and no recovering from it. I trained for upper body and sprinting (rugby) and was never any good at endurance, a few slow half marathons but no more, always a sprinter.
What's being said here is that the legs don't work to failure (been close on some hills) therefore max power isn't relevant/used. So the leg muscle changes I'm seeing are what I would have called 'conditioning' in those days, i.e. where someone would train high rep/low weight and not be looking for bulk but an increase in the reps. Transfer that into pedals and it's on and on ability, not being able to push a monstrous gear for a minute.
Is that it?
It's not a question of whether or not you work to failure - that too depends on power vs duration and you can do it at low or high power. Max power over a given duration has nothing to do with maximal force production.0 -
Eebijeebi wrote:At the risk of being burned at the stake here's one last go. I'm not trying to upset anyone, wind anyone up or anything of the sort. I'm truly trying to get my head around something that isn't sitting easy with me.
If -
I can pedal with my right leg only (say for an hour - whatever you like) at X watts.
I can pedal with my left leg only the same at Y watts.
X is greater than Y.
Why is it not beneficial in terms of total output to increase the power/strength/muscle whatever you want to call it of Y to add to my overall output of watts.
And I understand that the same increase could be made by keeping the imbalance - but that's not the question. It's whether or not there would be any gain in overall output.
Why query this? Well as I'm getting better (from a very low start point) I can push a bigger gear at the same rpm and heart rate. I get about holding the power output and time of holding it all coming from aerobic/anaerobic capacity etc - but how do I physically push a harder gear with less difficulty if my leg muscles aren't stronger than they were too?
I believe you will always have a leading power leg but this does not mean you cannot get the same power from both legs. TT pedalling is all about concentrating on how your brain gets your muscles to work. You can change the leading power leg on every count of 3 pedal strokes by putting in a little extra effort on the first stroke of the three. Give your brain the correct objectives and you could also pedal like this man, applying additional maximal torque at TDC whenever it's required, this gives higher sustainable power by reducing peak torque and stress on the muscles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU0 -
I was going to weigh in but now NCR is here it's game over! The previous posters have it right when explaining that leg strength is not a limiter for endurance performance, so increased leg strength in isolation won't have a beneficial effect on an imbalance in the context of endurance performance.0
