Balanced pedaling

neilo23

How, without a power meter, can you make sure that you're pedaling with equal power with each leg? As a footballer might be good with only one foot I pedal better with one leg. If I do one-legged intervals I notice that one leg is better than the other (less noticable when riding normally, but still apparent). Apart from constantly focusing both of my brain cells on being more even is there a better way?

imposter2.0

Most people have a left/right imbalance of some degree or other - you will never achieve 50/50. Assuming you don't actually have a serious/diagnosed leg function issue, then training with one leg is fairly pointless unless you plan on racing with one leg. Makes more sense to concentrate on improving overall fitness and power output, using both legs and whatever imbalance you already have.

lesfirth

I must be a bit thick so can somebody tell me what are the consequences of unbalanced pedalling ? They must be severe for the OP to be so concerned.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Keep in mind that attaining symmetry is not the aim of training. Improving performance is.

Asymmetry is normal.

Wigster

You will never be able to get them balanced 100%, you will always put "your best foot forward" (Hence the saying) whenever you walk up stairs, take a walk etc.

If you measure your calfs you may even notice a sizeable difference. Personally my right calf is nearly half an inch (Circumference) larger than my left calf!

neilo23

lesfirth wrote:

I must be a bit thick so can somebody tell me what are the consequences of unbalanced pedalling ? They must be severe for the OP to be so concerned.

You make it sound more dramatic than it is (or maybe that's what I did)

My pedal stroke is pretty good according to people in the know. I only ever do one-legged intervals occasionally to check my stroke. I was just under the impression that I could improve my power output if I could bring my weak leg up to the same level as my better one.

imposter2.0

neilo23 wrote:

I only ever do one-legged intervals occasionally to check my stroke.

I don't see how doing this will give you any useful information on your pedal stroke, when you are only using 50% of your available legs. Pedalling is (for the majority) a two-legged activity, so it makes more sense to check your pedal stroke while cycling with both legs - cycling with one leg will inevitably give you a completely skewed and unbalanced picture of what you are doing.

As Alex said earlier, there is little to be gained in power terms by trying to achieve a perfect 50/50 balance. Better just to concentrate on producing more power with your legs as they are.

neilo23

Imposter wrote:

neilo23 wrote:

I only ever do one-legged intervals occasionally to check my stroke.

I don't see how doing this will give you any useful information on your pedal stroke, when you are only using 50% of your available legs. Pedalling is (for the majority) a two-legged activity, so it makes more sense to check your pedal stroke while cycling with both legs - cycling with one leg will inevitably give you a completely skewed and unbalanced picture of what you are doing.

As Alex said earlier, there is little to be gained in power terms by trying to achieve a perfect 50/50 balance. Better just to concentrate on producing more power with your legs as they are.

The one legged things are something that I got years back in Lance Armstrong's training book. I only do a couple once or twice a year just out of interest. I could have picked up worse habits from him

dw300

lesfirth wrote:

I must be a bit thick so can somebody tell me what are the consequences of unbalanced pedalling ? They must be severe for the OP to be so concerned.

Surely you know this by now..

.. your Stages power meter will be rendered useless!

Alex_Simmons/RST

neilo23 wrote:

lesfirth wrote:

I must be a bit thick so can somebody tell me what are the consequences of unbalanced pedalling ? They must be severe for the OP to be so concerned.

You make it sound more dramatic than it is (or maybe that's what I did)

My pedal stroke is pretty good according to people in the know. I only ever do one-legged intervals occasionally to check my stroke. I was just under the impression that I could improve my power output if I could bring my weak leg up to the same level as my better one.

It will tell you how you pedal one-legged.

However that is a significantly different type of muscle activation compared with pedalling two legged. For a start the opposite pedal needs to be weighted to simulate the inertial load of the opposite leg. To do that, you need to add something like 10-12kg of mass to the non-drive pedal.

ncr

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Keep in mind that attaining symmetry is not the aim of training. Improving performance is.

Asymmetry is normal.

Did you ever get to compare power output from each of your legs ?

Alex_Simmons/RST

ncr wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Keep in mind that attaining symmetry is not the aim of training. Improving performance is.

Asymmetry is normal.

Did you ever get to compare power output from each of your legs ?

Yes. Well sort of.

I vary from 46:54 to 52:48 while on a trainer, using downstream power-balance measurement method*, or as Andy Coggan has more succinctly dubbed it, pseudo power-balance. Yep, sometimes I report more power from my amputated side.

* e.g. as reported by Wattbike, Computrainer, Quarq, Power2Max, SRM.

ncr

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

ncr wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Asymmetry is normal.

Yep, sometimes I report more power from my amputated side.

Does that not tell you something about pedalling asymmetry ?

imposter2.0

ncr wrote:

Does that not tell you something about pedalling asymmetry ?

It tells me that it can be largely ignored in performance cycling terms...

ncr

Imposter wrote:

ncr wrote:

Does that not tell you something about pedalling asymmetry ?

It tells me that it can be largely ignored in performance cycling terms...

From Triathlete's World

" Smooth cycling

Most people have one dominant leg, which affects your pedalling, although it's likely you don't even notice it. If you do not address the issue it may lead to hip problems. To develop better pedal action do one-legged drills on the turbo trainer.

If you do one minute on, say, your left leg, then one minute on your right, you will develop a smoother pedal action. However, one of your legs will probably always be dominant. It's natural "

What decides a rider's dominant leg ?

imposter2.0

It's a bit of a leap to correlate a dominant leg with hip problems! (in which leg, by the way - the dominant one, or the less-dominant?) Is there any actual evidence for that proposition, or is it just someone's unsubstantiated opinion in a Tri mag? You would have to assume that 99% of everyone who has ever ridden a bike would favour one leg or the other, and yet reports of hip problems seem remarkably rare, or even non-existent.

One-legged drills are fairly pointless for two-legged cycling, as has been discussed many times. As for 'what decides a rider's dominant leg' - probably a similar process to the one that decides which hand you use to write with, or throw a ball with.

ncr

Imposter wrote:

As for 'what decides a rider's dominant leg' - probably a similar process to the one that decides which hand you use to write with, or throw a ball with.

The answer is your brain and it will continue with this same dominant leg if not signalled to change. By changing dominant leg every few pedal strokes you can increase sustainable power output in high gear time trialling as each leg in turn gets a brief recovery period. It could be compared to a two up TT. Another of the techniques used by Anquetil in time trials.

imposter2.0

ncr wrote:

The answer is your brain and it will continue with this same dominant leg if not signalled to change. By changing dominant leg every few pedal strokes you can increase sustainable power output in high gear time trialling as each leg in turn gets a brief recovery period. It could be compared to a two up TT. Another of the techniques used by Anquetil in time trials.

Sounds very interesting. Can you post some links to evidence, or research, or something other than unsubstantiated personal opinion?

Meanwhile, let's have another read of the 'Triathletes World' quotes...

ncr wrote:

Most people have one dominant leg, which affects your pedalling, although it's likely you don't even notice it. If you do not address the issue it may lead to hip problems.

How can you address the issue if you don't even realise you have an imbalance? And if you aren't aware, how do you know which leg to work on?

ncr wrote:

If you do one minute on, say, your left leg, then one minute on your right, you will develop a smoother pedal action. However, one of your legs will probably always be dominant. It's natural "

So in other words, it's fairly pointless bothering to do one-leg exercises, because it won't change anything..?

Seriously, where do you find this stuff?

ncr

Imposter wrote:

ncr wrote:

The answer is your brain and it will continue with this same dominant leg if not signalled to change. By changing dominant leg every few pedal strokes you can increase sustainable power output in high gear time trialling as each leg in turn gets a brief recovery period. It could be compared to a two up TT. Another of the techniques used by Anquetil in time trials.

Sounds very interesting. Can you post some links to evidence, or research, or something other than unsubstantiated personal opinion?

Meanwhile, let's have another read of the 'Triathletes World' quotes...

ncr wrote:

Most people have one dominant leg, which affects your pedalling, although it's likely you don't even notice it. If you do not address the issue it may lead to hip problems.

How can you address the issue if you don't even realise you have an imbalance? And if you aren't aware, how do you know which leg to work on?

ncr wrote:

If you do one minute on, say, your left leg, then one minute on your right, you will develop a smoother pedal action. However, one of your legs will probably always be dominant. It's natural "

So in other words, it's fairly pointless bothering to do one-leg exercises, because it won't change anything..?

Seriously, where do you find this stuff?

Developing a smoother pedalling technique and perfecting the dominant leg changing action are two completely different things and both can give a distinct advantage in time trials.

imposter2.0

ncr wrote:

Developing a smoother pedalling technique and perfecting the dominant leg changing action are two completely different things and both can give a distinct advantage in time trials.

I see you've managed to dodge my request for supporting info twice now. If you can't support it, then it's just another internet opinion...

ncr

Imposter wrote:

ncr wrote:

The answer is your brain and it will continue with this same dominant leg if not signalled to change. By changing dominant leg every few pedal strokes you can increase sustainable power output in high gear time trialling as each leg in turn gets a brief recovery period. It could be compared to a two up TT. Another of the techniques used by Anquetil in time trials.

Sounds very interesting. Can you post some links to evidence, or research, or something other than unsubstantiated personal opinion?

Meanwhile, let's have another read of the 'Triathletes World' quotes...

ncr wrote:

Most people have one dominant leg, which affects your pedalling, although it's likely you don't even notice it. If you do not address the issue it may lead to hip problems.

How can you address the issue if you don't even realise you have an imbalance? And if you aren't aware, how do you know which leg to work on?

ncr wrote:

If you do one minute on, say, your left leg, then one minute on your right, you will develop a smoother pedal action. However, one of your legs will probably always be dominant. It's natural "

So in other words, it's fairly pointless bothering to do one-leg exercises, because it won't change anything..?

Seriously, where do you find this stuff?

You don't need to know which leg is dominant. It's possible to create an even more effective dominant effect in either leg at any time. This advice came from Anquetil but it was misinterpreted by those or most who had not the slightest interested in what he was talking about in the same way as they concentrated more on his toes down foot position than the fact that his muscles were being used to apply additional maximal torque where all other cyclists' legs were effectively idling. You use the dominant leg for the count of 3 or 5 before switching the dominant effect to the other leg, neither leg rests at any time.
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.ie/2009/04/ ... e-and.html

imposter2.0

So your 'evidence' is a blog post from 2009..? Call me picky, but that might not be enough for some people...

ncr

Imposter wrote:

So your 'evidence' is a blog post from 2009..? Call me picky, but that might not be enough for some people...

But for triathletes TT riders would still be using these unaero bars. Cyclists have a lot to learn about pedalling but that's only to be expected when the topic is almost totally ignored.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQ ... re=related

imposter2.0

ncr wrote:

Imposter wrote:

So your 'evidence' is a blog post from 2009..? Call me picky, but that might not be enough for some people...

But for triathletes TT riders would still be using these unaero bars. Cyclists have a lot to learn about pedalling but that's only to be expected when the topic is almost totally ignored.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvwtOQ ... re=related

Maybe if you could come up with something new, like some actual evidence (rather than links to 5yo blogs or 25yo YT clips), then you might get taken a bit more seriously..?

The amount of power measurement related devices and technologies available today should make it relatively easy to come up with some decent figures & comparisons, I would have thought.

Paul 8v

A bit of a thread resurrection here but at least I can't be accused of not using the search function ;-)

I went on a wattbike today and I found I had a 45/55 L/R balance. Has anyone established if this is a big problem and if so how to correct it? I do have a protruding disc in my spine which has caused pain in my left leg in the past and when I'm pushing myself my head leans to the left. I'm wondering if this may be part of the problem?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Paul 8v wrote:

I went on a wattbike today and I found I had a 45/55 L/R balance.

Then that's what we call pseudo-balance, since downstream measurement of power cannot distinguish actual power balance between your legs. All it can tell you is the net power output from both legs for each half of a pedal stroke. That's a different measurement.

Your actual power balance may well be different to that reported by a Wattbike. It might also be the same, but without measurement one can't actually know.

Paul 8v wrote:

Has anyone established if this is a big problem ?

Not in a universal sense, no.

Paul 8v wrote:

and if so how to correct it?

See first two answers. Whether it's a problem (or not) isn't answered by this information, hence whether you should do anything isn't really possible to answer with this alone, let alone what you should do (if anything).

Paul 8v wrote:

I do have a protruding disc in my spine which has caused pain in my left leg in the past and when I'm pushing myself my head leans to the left. I'm wondering if this may be part of the problem?

I'd say this information is more useful than the power balance you quote.

It's definitely possible that you have some issues that require professional attention, both in your off the bike work to treat your issues and importantly with bike and shoe/cleat positioning by an experienced and qualified professional.

cyco2

neilo23 wrote:

Apart from constantly focusing both of my brain cells on being more even is there a better way?

A way I have found to effect the bias of effort to a particular leg is to count the revolutions of one leg then after say 30 revs change my thoughts to the other leg. I have found that because I am thinking about counting on that leg I put slightly more effort into it. The effect is more balanced than one legged riding and sustainable over long distances. I have only done this on the road and since you have revived my interest I'll try it out on my trainers power meter.

imposter2.0

cyco2 wrote:

I have only done this on the road and since you have revived my interest I'll try it out on my trainers power meter.

Which - as others have already said - will tell you precisely nothing of any use.

Paul 8v

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

I went on a wattbike today and I found I had a 45/55 L/R balance.

Then that's what we call pseudo-balance, since downstream measurement of power cannot distinguish actual power balance between your legs. All it can tell you is the net power output from both legs for each half of a pedal stroke. That's a different measurement.

Your actual power balance may well be different to that reported by a Wattbike. It might also be the same, but without measurement one can't actually know.

Paul 8v wrote:

Has anyone established if this is a big problem ?

Not in a universal sense, no.

Paul 8v wrote:

and if so how to correct it?

See first two answers. Whether it's a problem (or not) isn't answered by this information, hence whether you should do anything isn't really possible to answer with this alone, let alone what you should do (if anything).

Paul 8v wrote:

I do have a protruding disc in my spine which has caused pain in my left leg in the past and when I'm pushing myself my head leans to the left. I'm wondering if this may be part of the problem?

I'd say this information is more useful than the power balance you quote.

It's definitely possible that you have some issues that require professional attention, both in your off the bike work to treat your issues and importantly with bike and shoe/cleat positioning by an experienced and qualified professional.

Thanks Alex, that's helpful, I need to find a physio that knows about cycling to help me I think, the back thing will never get better but if there is something I can do to help it that would be good. It's a lot better than it was, I'm a lot more comfortable on the bike after a BG fit than I was but there must be some other issues elsewhere too.

bahzob

Hm. Unlike most I have been used to getting information on leg balance over a number of years. I believe its useful because its made a real difference to me. Here's may 3happenworth based on actual experience rather than theory:

- In the beginning of the "power" age there were a large number of old timers who had the opinion that SRMs and the like were just expensive toys. Their fundamental view was that they knew how well they were cycling, they didn't need a computer to tell them. Time has proved them wrong.

- Now a new generation of power meters is coming to market that does more than just give you information on how much power you output, it also provides insight on how this may be affected by your inputs. Leg balance is the most basic of these. Other more sophisticated measures will also become available. In time it will be possible to get a detailed plot in real time of the torque being applied with each revolution of the pedal.

- You can, like the the old timers in the past say this information is useless, pedalling a bike is simple and you already do it perfectly.

- Or you can take, imo a more sensible, view that this information may be of interest when taken in combination with other information on how you are riding.

wrt to pedal balance:
>Yes it is true that a perfect 50/50 balance is difficult to maintain consistently in all conditions
> However if there is an imbalance then its worth asking why. Just ignoring it seems strange.
>>Often it will point to issues in bike setup. For many right v left legs are quite different, due to nature (e.g. one leg being longer than the other) or accident (e.g. due to a football injury my right knee has a permanent kink in the z axis). This means that ideally you want a different setup for each leg. This is tricky but possible. My cleats on my right foot are set differently than the left and I use shims to help straighten out the kink.
>> Most folk are naturally right or left footed. When pushing hard on a bike this can lead to the "natural" leg being favoured. It may be explicit, e.g. when things are really hard I count pedal strokes 1-3 and repeat ad endum, it may be sub-conscious. Whatever it may mean that one leg is working harder than the other just as a result of habit.

>> The above are next to impossible to be aware of let alone resolve just using power. Having information on balance can give an insight that there is an issue and a means to help resolve it.

Like said for me this is not theory it is practice. My leg balance used to be 55/45 left/right. The main reason for this was my knackered right knee. The changes in setup reduced this so now its routinely more like 51/49 which has resulted in power at threshold+ improving and being more comfortable to hold.

I am confident that in a few years good information on riders are pedalling and the relationship to power will become commonplace (main limiter atm is the Ant+ protocol which is too slow to handle the data volumes). Once this happens threads like this will become the same relics of the past as those that doubted the utility of power meters.

bahzob

PS. I can understand the scepticism of some who think this is all a waste of time. Often they will have been lifelong cyclists and spent time riding/racing bikes on the track. A combination of thousands of hours practice and the stricture of riding a fixed wheel at 120rpm+ will is a great way to develop a smooth, balanced pedalling style.

However I would point out not everyone follows this route. Some are like me, taking up cycling in middle age bringing little experience and some injuries/limitations gained over the years. This group will especially benefit from having an open mind on this subject