H plus son Archetype rims

cycleclinic

Of course they are stiffer, that not hard at all. By smoother I suppose you mean the ride quality, again the rim is wider so the tyres will give a more comortable ride. Enjoy them for alot longer.

dwanes

I got some Archetypes built up but didnt like the wider rim and the more 'comfortable' ride. It all felt a bit spongy no matter what the tyre pressure.

ugo.santalucia

dwanes wrote:

I got some Archetypes built up but didnt like the wider rim and the more 'comfortable' ride. It all felt a bit spongy no matter what the tyre pressure.

Comfortable is a consequence, rather than the main feature... I think the main feature is the better and more predictable handling as you lean in a bend... narrow rims don't give you the same predictable behaviour and they become dreadful once the tyre starts to square as it wears out. Ultimately it is pretty clear that if you want to go faster in a tight bend you need to lean more (and viceversa). I think 23 mm is not the finished object, they are going to get wider. 25 is already available and 27 will be next... the tyre will get rounder and rounder and the inner tube will be ditched altogether once it becomes redundant and no longer works with the shape of the tyre...

darkhairedlord

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dwanes wrote:

I got some Archetypes built up but didnt like the wider rim and the more 'comfortable' ride. It all felt a bit spongy no matter what the tyre pressure.

Comfortable is a consequence, rather than the main feature... I think the main feature is the better and more predictable handling as you lean in a bend... narrow rims don't give you the same predictable behaviour and they become dreadful once the tyre starts to square as it wears out. Ultimately it is pretty clear that if you want to go faster in a tight bend you need to lean more (and viceversa). I think 23 mm is not the finished object, they are going to get wider. 25 is already available and 27 will be next... the tyre will get rounder and rounder and the inner tube will be ditched altogether once it becomes redundant and no longer works with the shape of the tyre...

And we'll finally get radials, essential for the lower profile, and obviously a new rim dia to suit. :roll:

cycleclinic

Personally I can't wait for the advent of 23mm wide (internal width) rims. Looking forward to the new disc brake bike and 25m aileron rims with 28mm tubeless tyres on them. Might even try those 30mm challange strada's. For me road tyres are not wide enough and one reason I have to let the beloved Sannio go as there is not enough clearance either that or get longer stays put in.

The cornering thing is important and as for the tyre being too squishy I don't get that. 23mm tyres on 19mm wide rims are just too unforgiving, the one crit race I did this year on narrow rims and tyres I was leaving the circuit on every corner that the week before on wide rims I was keeping on the circuit and going faster. Never again.

dwanes

darkhairedlord wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dwanes wrote:

I got some Archetypes built up but didnt like the wider rim and the more 'comfortable' ride. It all felt a bit spongy no matter what the tyre pressure.

Comfortable is a consequence, rather than the main feature... I think the main feature is the better and more predictable handling as you lean in a bend... narrow rims don't give you the same predictable behaviour and they become dreadful once the tyre starts to square as it wears out. Ultimately it is pretty clear that if you want to go faster in a tight bend you need to lean more (and viceversa). I think 23 mm is not the finished object, they are going to get wider. 25 is already available and 27 will be next... the tyre will get rounder and rounder and the inner tube will be ditched altogether once it becomes redundant and no longer works with the shape of the tyre...

And we'll finally get radials, essential for the lower profile, and obviously a new rim dia to suit. :roll:

yeah but they will roll faster. :roll:

secretsam

These wider rims, do they cause problems on closer clearance bikes? My Cinelli wouldn't take anything more than a 23mm tyre - would there be a similar issue with wider rims?

And just how much difference do decent hubs make to the average rider? I've got Miche wheels and the hubs are probably fine, it's the rims that are heavy

ugo.santalucia

SecretSam wrote:

These wider rims, do they cause problems on closer clearance bikes? My Cinelli wouldn't take anything more than a 23mm tyre - would there be a similar issue with wider rims?

And just how much difference do decent hubs make to the average rider? I've got Miche wheels and the hubs are probably fine, it's the rims that are heavy

I can't see any problem with 23 mm rims...

You buy expensive hubs for reliability... some mistakenly spend money for light hubs, but really you want reliable. In terms of performance... Chris King or Novatec will get you from A to B in the same time

letap73

If wider rims are where its at - then what rims are available now/will be available in the near future which super cede the Archetypes.

I am assuming HED Belguim Plus and the Velocity Aileron already do.

What rims are proposed which will have an internal diameter of 23mm? For reference the Archetypes its 17mm , Ailerons its 20mm and HED Belguim Plus its 20.5mm

daddypig

so here is my experience of the H plus son archetype rims which I had built onto DT Swiss 240 hubs with Sapim CX ray spokes (32 front and rear)...

very smooth wheels, roll pretty fast and surprising good in the hills, ok not as good as pure climbing wheels but don't feel heavy at all
stayed perfectly true over 4000 miles of riding on some pretty rough roads and all weathers
black coating on braking surface wore off straight away - some people have talked about this lasting 1000 miles which I cannot believe - it doesn't bother me as it's just a braking surface but you might say it spoils the aesthetic of a pure black rim & tyre
my rear wheel flexes a bit, which is noticeable when climbing out of the saddle, so I have to open the brakes a bit otherwise the pads rub - I think I read somewhere that it is difficult to build stiff wheels using these rims on 32 hole DT Swiss 240 hubs??
my main issue with these rims is the alarming rate of wear on the braking surface - the rear is now quite worn and concave, and probably needs replacing soon (certainly before 5k miles). This is the first time I have had a set of wheels where the rim goes well before the spokes. Of course I can get the rim replaced which is only £50 but wheel builders generally don't like to reuse spokes so I'll have to get cheaper spokes as I can't afford 32 new CX rays plus labour!

cycleclinic

DT wiss hubs have short flange seperation on the rear. couple that with Cx-ray and you will get flex. If you simpley replace the hubs with a novatec or miche hub at a fraction of the price you will have a wheel that is noticably stiffer.
A 28 spoke build with laser spokes and DA 9000 hubs will be stiffer than your 32 spoke CX-ray/archetype/DT Swiss 240 build. The 240/350 hubs are relaible hubs but I personally will not use then becuase of the poor NDS rear bracing angle. The disc brake hubs though are excellent but so are novatec's.

As for rim wear, use soft pads. MAny use harder pads and regret it. Aztec orad plus are good, Kool stop salmon are very soft and Swiss stop something or other are meant to be fairly kind to rims. I am currently seeing how hard the campagnolo veloce pads are the reality is probably pretty harsh.

on-yer-bike

My Archetype rear rim lasted about 2000 miles mainly ridden in winter and the front is well worn. A friend also wore his out very quickly on his winter bike. I used Swiss Stop Green pads. Im not sure about KoolStop they seem to collect bits. The new Campag pads are black rather than brown and are the best Ive used. Did you know there is a wear dot on the Archetype? Its near the valve hole

cycleclinic

The archetype rim is no more prone to wear than any other aluminium rim. Unless you have measure the ammount of wear who knows what quite worn actually means. There is a quite a bit of material on the brake track.

Winter riding only does wear rims quite quickly. I only got 3000 miles from the front DT Swiss rim I was using last winter just riding it in shitty weather.

iPete

What's the 'raciest' spoke you'd run on a 32h Archetype with original Powertap. Something like DT Revolution?

There's no hiding it will be heavy but might be worth saving something back on spokes?

ugo.santalucia

iPete wrote:

There's no hiding it will be heavy but might be worth saving something back on spokes?

No, especially with the older PT which has a narrow flange to flange distance

cycleclinic

With the orginal power tap SL+ use sapim race or DT comps or you will have the flex experience of the poster above has with archetypes on DT Swiss 240 hubs.

apreading

thecycleclinic wrote:

DT wiss hubs have short flange seperation on the rear. couple that with Cx-ray and you will get flex. If you simpley replace the hubs with a novatec or miche hub at a fraction of the price you will have a wheel that is noticably stiffer.
A 28 spoke build with laser spokes and DA 9000 hubs will be stiffer than your 32 spoke CX-ray/archetype/DT Swiss 240 build. The 240/350 hubs are relaible hubs but I personally will not use then becuase of the poor NDS rear bracing angle. The disc brake hubs though are excellent but so are novatec's.

As for rim wear, use soft pads. MAny use harder pads and regret it. Aztec orad plus are good, Kool stop salmon are very soft and Swiss stop something or other are meant to be fairly kind to rims. I am currently seeing how hard the campagnolo veloce pads are the reality is probably pretty harsh.

Just to be clear, are you saying that 240/350 disc hubs are OK but 240/350 road hubs are not?

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that 240/350 disc hubs are OK but 240/350 road hubs are not?

They don't mate well with shallow rims. 30 mm or more will give you a better bracing angle with these hubs. In the case of Archetype you want a rear hub with a flange to flange distance of around 55-58 mm... I seem to recall the 240 is 51 mm.

daddypig

thanks for the helpful advice

when I get the rear rim replaced I will go with standard Sapim spokes, I'm annoyed that I got talked into CX rays when I bought the wheels

I think I've got some Swiss Stop green pads which I will fit and hopefully extend rim life

I didn't know there was a wear indicator near the valve hole, but I will have a look

cheers

gabriel959

anyone knows if the archetype rim goes well with the shimano 105 hubs? My open pro front rim is coming to end of life and the price difference between the 2 is less than a tenner ...

ugo.santalucia

gabriel959 wrote:

anyone knows if the archetype rim goes well with the shimano 105 hubs? My open pro front rim is coming to end of life and the price difference between the 2 is less than a tenner ...

yes

gabriel959

thanks, might have to use the 17% wiggle discount then.

cycleclinic

The DT Swiss 240 or 350 disc brake hubs give a better rear flange seperation than the road hubs do, 53mm vs 50mm (worse than you thought ugo). 53mm is o.k for a disc brake hub and you tend to use sapim race or Dt comp spokes anyway. For using thin gauge spokes a stiffer disc brake rim is need like the velocity aileron, but as this a road build it does not matter. So there you go, 240 and 350 road hubs need a very stiff rim/higher spoke count/thicker spokes.

The open pro is almost poinltess now better rims like the archetype exists. shame I have a few left.

patrickf

ugo.santalucia wrote:

apreading wrote:

Just to be clear, are you saying that 240/350 disc hubs are OK but 240/350 road hubs are not?

They don't mate well with shallow rims. 30 mm or more will give you a better bracing angle with these hubs. In the case of Archetype you want a rear hub with a flange to flange distance of around 55-58 mm... I seem to recall the 240 is 51 mm.

I assume you're measuring the flanges from the outside faces? Measurement on the inside flange faces on a rear 6800 hub is only 50mm. Outside faces are about 56mm though.

keezx

Measurement is alway middle-middle

patrickf

Keezx wrote:

Measurement is alway middle-middle

Interesting, Roger Musson's book measures inside faces. That's for spoke length calcs though.

keezx

Interesting indeed.
The calculaters I use take middle-middle.....someting to remember when calculating.

dangerousdave.

Sorry to move off topic however it does relate to these rims. I'm Looking at upgrading from fulcrum racing 5 wheels. I appreciate that hand builds are far more flexible than the factory offerings and will not have to be binned after a period of time. The one item that is puzzling me is around the wheel set weight. With duraace hubs on a 28/32 spoke pattern they seem to weigh approx 1700g. This compared to fulcrum 5 wheels which according to wiggle weight in at 1645g. Is this a like for like comparison? I would have thought that the hand builds at 500 quid would be a lot lighter than the 140 quid f5's? Am I missing something?
Thanks in advance
Dave

apreading

Not like for like - the fulcrums have 20/24 spokes for a start. Plus weight is not everything - you could build a really light hub that wouldnt last or roll as well and a thin rim that wouldnt be as strong.

You say that you are looking to upgrade but I ask you "why?", because you dont seem to know. Are you upgrading to get something lighter or something more reliable/better performing? Your post reads as though you are looking to upgrade just because someone told you that you should. What do your current wheels lack that you want?

DKay

The greater stiffness and rim width of an Archetype build would make a far bigger impact on your enjoyment of riding than a weight saving of 55g. Trust me.