H plus son Archetype rims

senoj

Looking at buying the above rims with some dura ace hubs, first time ive upgraded wheels, moving up from mavic aksiums.
Are they a good match?
I am fairly heavy at 88kg, 32 spoke for the rear and 28 for the front.
Ive had some good advice from the guy whos going to build them, finger hovering over the buy button.
£500 approx, what else is there for the cash?
Kysiriums, RS81's?
They will be for best.
Cheers

rowlers

I think some will tell you they are fabulous rim matched to the perfect hub.
If I could have afforded (or waited until I'd saved a bit more!) DA hubs I'd have had them too. As it happens the Archetype is brilliant on Miche Primato hubs too

ugo.santalucia

Or Ultegra hubs... nearly as good and 150 pounds cheaper. Front only available as 32 and not 28, but worth a punt. I have built a few ultegra sets with various rims for folks who tour around the world and they seem flawless

bmxboy10

Just had the same spec wheels built up and I am very pleased but Ultegras would have been just as good.

senoj

.
I will go for the Dura Ace hubs, if only because ive waited nearly 5 years to upgrade, and they will be used in near
surgical theatre conditions, and will have to last.
I am not now, but was more concerned with the rim,it sounded an odd name and one i hadnt heard before.
Finger being pressed in 15 minutes.

cycleclinic

a 24F/28R will be fine at your weight. You can go for more spokes of course but a 28 spoke rear wheel with the archetype rim will be stable and long lived. The hubs of course will out live the rim many times over. Go on buy them you won't regret it.

senoj

Does using a 32 rear make them more bomb proof?
The roads around the Welsh valleys are appalling, I dont mind compromising a little weight.
Is there a reason not to use the combination i chose, i know nothing by the way.

ianbar

i have those rims and seem pretty fab to me!

ugo.santalucia

senoj wrote:

Does using a 32 rear make them more bomb proof?
The roads around the Welsh valleys are appalling, I dont mind compromising a little weight.
Is there a reason not to use the combination i chose, i know nothing by the way.

Look, most people who do Paris Roubaix on 16 spokes have no problems. Potholes don't kill spokes, they kill rims. Mileage kill spokes, regardless of whether it is on smooth tarmac or bumpy gravel. More spokes = more mileage, simple as that... if you double the number of spokes you shoud get 5-10 times the mileage with the same spokes

cycleclinic

Ugo I think we typed the same response at the same time!

More spokes, if the wheel is well built well lengthen spoke life, but as a 28 spoke rear seems to work well for riders up to 90kg (heavier riders will get shorter spoke life but by how much no one can tell) without any issues then a 32 spoke rear seems over kill to me. What makes you think the roads in Wales are any worse than the roads in Suffolk or anywhere else. Holed roads I don't think have a big impact of spoke fatigue after all you avoid the holes and if you don't the chances are you will damage the rim/damage yourself, in that case more spokes won't help at all.

Nothing wrong with a 32 spoke rear it just means the builder is a) very conservative or b) or building what he/she knows he/she may only build 32 spoke rears.

If you are using a 32 spoke rear you might as well use ultegra hubs. the only reason to go for dura ace is to have a 24F/28R drilling with a shimano hub as you can't get those drillings with Ultegra hubs.

you need to remember the archetype is a stiff rim meaning a wheel with high torsional, lateral and radial stiffness. A 28 spoke rear build with sapim laser spokes NDS and sapim race DS on DA hubs will be far stiffer (in every way) than a 32H open pro rim laced with sapim race spokes and DA or an Ultegra hub. The rate at which spokes fatigue is strongly related to the radial, torsional and lateral stiffness of a wheel. So a 28 spoke build with the archetype should show (and I believe it does show) longer spoke life than a 32 spoke open pro/ambrosio excelight rear wheel. That should put it in perspective.

jonny_trousers

Just to look at this from a different, less important point of view - I simply can't enjoy the look of Archetype rims. I don't know why, but I can't.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Ugo I think we typed the same response at the same time!

No way, mine has been posted 22 minutes before...

menthel

I have been riding mine commuting on London roads for a couple of weeks, 24/28 on primato hubs as made by Paolo and they are a revelation. It looked a bit odd at first with so few spokes but the wheels are stiff and the ride is very, very smooth with the wider profile and 25mm tyres. Time will tell with regards wear but chatting to Paolo he felt that at 85kg the wheels should hold up well. They also look very, very cool (especially with silver spokes!).

iPete

Very happy with mine.
The toughest question is really black or dark grey?

styxd

iPete wrote:

Very happy with mine.
The toughest question is really black or dark grey?

Polished.

iwantblue

another Very Happy customer here,Black/black,32/32 on Hope Hubs as I wanted Blue, but I'm a good deal heavier than 85kg, albeit 2.25 stone lighter than when I ordered them

Again discussed with Paolo to come to the 32/32 but at more like 126kg and they're holding up just fine ....

N.

senoj

thanks all.sorted.

cycleclinic

I went to make a cup of tea and drink it mid post ugo so sort of the same time.

furiousd

I have these rims, made by Ugo. They are much more comfortable to ride than factory wheels.
The extra width and therefore lower PSI makes a big difference to me.
D

milese

With reference to spoke life; I think its far to assume that spokes will outlast rims, so is the assumption that when rebuilding a wheel with a new rim you'd use the same spokes? Or is it usual practice to recycle the spokes?

If, when my 32 spoke open pro wears out I fitted a H plus son rim, would I need new spokes due to length? Or would you replace them as a matter of course?

ugo.santalucia

Milese wrote:

With reference to spoke life; I think its far to assume that spokes will outlast rims, so is the assumption that when rebuilding a wheel with a new rim you'd use the same spokes? Or is it usual practice to recycle the spokes?

If, when my 32 spoke open pro wears out I fitted a H plus son rim, would I need new spokes due to length? Or would you replace them as a matter of course?

You need spokes which are 4 mm shorter...

bigmul

Been looking at a wheel upgrade and have been in touch with Spokesman about getting Archetypes with Novatec hubs, but was looking at the 20/24 build - is this seen as being too low a spoke count?

northpole

Strava offer an interesting build where they remove the Archetype lettering and add a very discrete 'Strava' logo in red which matches the Chris King hubs. If doing again I would probably stop at that and not have the matching red spoke nipples! These wheels were good for this year's Maratona.

Peter

Bordersroadie

On spoke count, I specced 32/28 for my Dura Ace/Open Pro a couple of years ago and I'm 72kg. I like light weight but I thought why not go belt and braces for the sake of, let's be honest, negligible extra weight.

Like Northpole, I was also at the Maratona and got some comfort from the knowledge that my wheels were over-engineered when I hit the occasional wrist-jarring big rut at high speed on some of the ice-damaged passes. I hear what Ugo says about rims being the main factor for strength but slightly closer spaced spokes will definitely contribute to strength (and, I'd argue, to maintaining trueness) and in my opinion are well worth it for a few grammes penalty.

ugo.santalucia

Bordersroadie wrote:

I hear what Ugo says about rims being the main factor for strength

:?: :shock: :?:

macleod113

I have pulled the trigger on some H plus son Archtype on 105 hubs from Strada. due to my weight (100kg approx.) it was suggested to go for 32/36 spoke count and due to my 150+ miles a week I like to aim for. cant wait to give them a try and happy with all the positive feedback about the rims.

Bordersroadie

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bordersroadie wrote:

I hear what Ugo says about rims being the main factor for strength

:?: :shock: :?:

You took those words out of context.

I was referring to your comment about people getting on fine in Paris-Roubaix on low spoke counts and "Potholes don't kill spokes, they kill rims." which I took to mean that extra spokes are unnecessary for extra strength. I'm sure you're right but my alternative viewpoint was that if ultimately saving a few grammes is not your absolute priority then going 32-28 instead of (say) 28-24 is a good approach for making the wheels that little bit stronger and I'm happy to call it over-engineering when I hit a mahoosive pothole.

ugo.santalucia

Bordersroadie wrote:

You took those words out of context.

I was referring to your comment about people getting on fine in Paris-Roubaix on low spoke counts and "Potholes don't kill spokes, they kill rims." which I took to mean that extra spokes are unnecessary for extra strength. I'm sure you're right but my alternative viewpoint was that if ultimately saving a few grammes is not your absolute priority then going 32-28 instead of (say) 28-24 is a good approach for making the wheels that little bit stronger and I'm happy to call it over-engineering when I hit a mahoosive pothole.

A high spoke count distributes load better and in turn give you a longer life. What i wanted to say is that potholes don't damage spokes (the legend of the spokes that pop because of potholes is largely a legend), but they damage rims, which in turn means buckled wheels. A buckled rim with 36 spokes is likely to be still more balanced than a 16 spokes one, but that is not to say that if you fit 36 or even 40 spokes then your rim will not get buckled in a pothole, it will still get buckled, but there is more tolerance in the wheel and you can probably still ride it and probably true it to reduce the wobble a bit, while a 16 spoker has no room for error...a buckled rim means you need a new rim.

Bordersroadie

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bordersroadie wrote:

You took those words out of context.

I was referring to your comment about people getting on fine in Paris-Roubaix on low spoke counts and "Potholes don't kill spokes, they kill rims." which I took to mean that extra spokes are unnecessary for extra strength. I'm sure you're right but my alternative viewpoint was that if ultimately saving a few grammes is not your absolute priority then going 32-28 instead of (say) 28-24 is a good approach for making the wheels that little bit stronger and I'm happy to call it over-engineering when I hit a mahoosive pothole.

A high spoke count distributes load better and in turn give you a longer life. What i wanted to say is that potholes don't damage spokes (the legend of the spokes that pop because of potholes is largely a legend), but they damage rims, which in turn means buckled wheels. A buckled rim with 36 spokes is likely to be still more balanced than a 16 spokes one, but that is not to say that if you fit 36 or even 40 spokes then your rim will not get buckled in a pothole, it will still get buckled, but there is more tolerance in the wheel and you can probably still ride it and probably true it to reduce the wobble a bit, while a 16 spoker has no room for error...a buckled rim means you need a new rim.

That's a good summary, I think we're actually in agreement. Certainly over the past few decades of having handbuilt wheels the higher spoke count wheels seem to stay true for longer - I have an MA40 on Shimano 600 wheel built in 1986 that is still true, not even 0.5mm deviation.

milese

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Milese wrote:

With reference to spoke life; I think its far to assume that spokes will outlast rims, so is the assumption that when rebuilding a wheel with a new rim you'd use the same spokes? Or is it usual practice to recycle the spokes?

If, when my 32 spoke open pro wears out I fitted a H plus son rim, would I need new spokes due to length? Or would you replace them as a matter of course?

You need spokes which are 4 mm shorter...

Thanks.

senoj

Just to update this thread for anyone else.
Bought the rims and Dura Ace hubs,very nice.
Alot stiffer than the Aksiums and smoother,suprisingly so.
Ive ridden about 1000miles on them.