So sportives aren't races?

singleton

Some people take them as a bit of fun and some people try to go as fast as they can - maybe against themselves, maybe against their mates.

No, they are not officially races, but what's wrong with people having a bit of healthy fun on a bike?

adr82

rpherts wrote:

So why weren't they doing a chain gang instead then? Why bother paying to enter a sportive just to go tearing along through a bunch of casual riders and disappear into the distance? Couldn't possibly be because it makes them feel like they're pros because they're overtaking everyone else, could it?

Or they aren't a member of a club and entered the ride as an individual. When they approach a bunch of slower riders, should they shrug and say "hey ho, I'll have to go at this group's speed now" and not pass them?

Stop trying to take this to ridiculous extremes, simply overtaking someone obviously doesn't mean you're racing. As should have been extremely clear from my post, I was talking about people who enter sportives as a group, with the express intention of riding it as a group, as if they were in a race or on a fast training ride. If you're going to do that, why not actually do a race or fast training ride instead? What does the sportive context add except the chance to overtake lots of people and a high "overall placing" to brag about?

What you described in your other post about being passed by a fast bunch in a sportive is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Given the range of speeds that you get in a typical sportive you might as well be mixing F1 and go-karting. It's dangerous and could easily be off-putting for those just out for a nice leisurely ride.

StillGoing

adr82 wrote:

rpherts wrote:

So why weren't they doing a chain gang instead then? Why bother paying to enter a sportive just to go tearing along through a bunch of casual riders and disappear into the distance? Couldn't possibly be because it makes them feel like they're pros because they're overtaking everyone else, could it?

Or they aren't a member of a club and entered the ride as an individual. When they approach a bunch of slower riders, should they shrug and say "hey ho, I'll have to go at this group's speed now" and not pass them?

Stop trying to take this to ridiculous extremes, simply overtaking someone obviously doesn't mean you're racing. As should have been extremely clear from my post, I was talking about people who enter sportives as a group, with the express intention of riding it as a group, as if they were in a race or on a fast training ride. If you're going to do that, why not actually do a race or fast training ride instead? What does the sportive context add except the chance to overtake lots of people and a high "overall placing" to brag about?

What you described in your other post about being passed by a fast bunch in a sportive is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Given the range of speeds that you get in a typical sportive you might as well be mixing F1 and go-karting. It's dangerous and could easily be off-putting for those just out for a nice leisurely ride.

Sportives are for all abilities though. I've just completed one as a part of a team of riders. We weren't competing against anyone or between ourselves. The group split into two for those doing the shorter route and those doing the longer route. Those doing the shorter route were intent on completing the course and trying to come home in a respectable (to them) time. Those of us doing the long route went as hard as we could in an effort to be back around the same time so we could enjoy the social gathering afterwards together. There were riders faster than us and many more going slower than us, but it didn't matter to anyone. We chose to ride a sportive simply because it's an organised ride with all the facilities you could hope for and which can't be had on a self supported ride out. There was no club snobbery from anyone or any animosity to riders in replica kit. Nobody was in the least bit bothered by the guy who came in in the quickest time of the day or whether they were beaten by a female. It was enjoyed for what it was; a well organised ride out for riders of various ages and ability.

ManOfKent

adr82 wrote:

As should have been extremely clear from my post, I was talking about people who enter sportives as a group, with the express intention of riding it as a group, as if they were in a race or on a fast training ride. If you're going to do that, why not actually do a race or fast training ride instead? What does the sportive context add except the chance to overtake lots of people and a high "overall placing" to brag about?

What you described in your other post about being passed by a fast bunch in a sportive is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Given the range of speeds that you get in a typical sportive you might as well be mixing F1 and go-karting. It's dangerous and could easily be off-putting for those just out for a nice leisurely ride.

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with entering and riding as a group. As it happens, a few of us from my club are going to a sportive in France this year to ride as a group and aim for the Gold standard time. We've done a few training rides at home; this is what we've been training for. It's a mini-break, a change of scenery, partially closed roads, a good atmosphere and there will no doubt be some banter/abuse/encouragement/mockery exchanged... That said, the target time is not the be all and end all. If someone punctures or just can't keep up we'll more than likely decide to stay together and settle for Silver rather than leave him at the side of the road.

Of course we could alternatively race - and between us we've done quite a few TTs and a couple of MTB races this year. But actually, even Cat 4 level is beyond us, although we'll be pushing our own limits to achieve the target time. Because it's in France the sportive is a race anyway.

I do agree with your point that mixing fast and slow riders can be a recipe for disaster. It's one of the reasons I wouldn't do the BHF L2B again, except maybe with my son when he's old enough. Personal responsibility is key though, recognising the hazards and both faster and slower riders giving the others room to manoeuvre.

phreak

Horses for courses isn't it? I did the Dreilander Giro on Sunday in Austria. The route was infinitely more enjoyable (and challenging) than doing several laps of Hog Hill. Being out in the mountains is what cycling is about for me, not laps of a criterium circuit.

That the fastest time for the 165km route over the Stelvio and various other climbs was a shade over 5hrs suggests that they could hold their own in a 'proper race'. The event was also accompanied by a podium at the end, with the best three finishers each being awarded with a prize. Think the quickest may even have been given a trophy. Such is life.

Given the typical terrain of a pro race in Europe, I'd say that most UK 'racers' are about as far from the real thing as your average sportive rider, regardless of how professional they may think themselves to be.

LegendLust

There's an easy way to work this out.

If you put your number on your bike it's a Sportive.

If you pin a number on your back it's a race

neeb

Except in Finland we pin numbers on our backs in races AND in sportives.. ;-)

But some things seem clear to me from this thread and my own experience:

- A proper race is always a race - no doubt about that, whatever country you are in. You need a racing license to take part and it is called a race.

- The term "sportive" can cover a range of very different events, especially if you look at it internationally. Some of these can be competitive, e.g. some of the mountainous sportives on the continent.

I haven't done any UK sportives, but it sounds as if they are further from being races than the ones we have in Finland. As I mentioned above the small number of sportives in Finland /can also be/ races in a sense, in that some people compete in a different (racing) category. But in practice there isn't a big difference in the way these people treat it and the way that competitive riders without licenses treat it.

The way that the problem of mixing different abilities is dealt with is to have different speed groups at the start line - so when people are lining up to start the racing license holders are at the front (usually clearly separated), then there might be a 35kmh group behind that, then a 30kmh group, 28, etc etc. Apart from the racing group, anyone can join any group they want, but in practice it usually works out quite well and most people join groups appropriate to their ability (and the few that overestimate their ability quickly get dropped back to the next group).

Seems to work quite well.

Lookyhere

LegendLust wrote:

There's an easy way to work this out.

If you put your number on your bike it's a Sportive.

If you pin a number on your back it's a race

no not that simple, in the Dartmoor classic you have a number on your bike (as the pro s do ha ha ) and then pin one on your back, anyhow, what does it matter? will it ruin your day? some people need to get over what makes others happy, as Phreak says, how does multiple laps of a airfield relate to a european race?

thomasmorris

phreak wrote:

Given the typical terrain of a pro race in Europe, I'd say that most UK 'racers' are about as far from the real thing as your average sportive rider, regardless of how professional they may think themselves to be.

Kinda missing the the point though... it's got nothing to do with the terrain, which varies even within grand tour races, and there are plenty of pro races done as town center crits.

From the sounds of things the European sportives are set up slightly better, so often represent a fairer competition.

The real point to linking to the article to show how funny it is that people will turn up to what isn't designed to be a fair competition, and where most people aren't competing, and then claim to have won. Which is the case of people claiming to win or place highly in a UK sportive. Surely we can all agree this is funny behavior?

phreak wrote:

That the fastest time for the 165km route over the Stelvio and various other climbs was a shade over 5hrs suggests that they could hold their own in a 'proper race'.

Which I'm sure is true, no one is trying to suggest you can't ride sportives and be very strong. But just because people doing the event are capable of riding very fast, doesn't make it a real race.

Although, this is also in a different country, where the lines are far more blurred, hence the podium. But the origional link was the UK.

d_o_g

Sportives are bobbins anyway, don't really understand why they are so massively popular.

StillGoing

LegendLust wrote:

There's an easy way to work this out.

If you put your number on your bike it's a Sportive.

If you pin a number on your back it's a race

Some UK Sportives have numbers pinned on the rider's back.

mm1

D O G wrote:

Sportives are bobbins anyway, don't really understand why they are so massively popular.

This ^^^. Mostly involve paying over the odds to ride a badly disorganised clubrun, I can do that for free any Sunday.

DavidJB

Lookyhere wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

There's an easy way to work this out.

If you put your number on your bike it's a Sportive.

If you pin a number on your back it's a race

no not that simple, in the Dartmoor classic you have a number on your bike (as the pro s do ha ha ) and then pin one on your back, anyhow, what does it matter? will it ruin your day? some people need to get over what makes others happy, as Phreak says, how does multiple laps of a airfield relate to a european race?

What's the course got to do with if it's a race or not? That's like saying the 400m isn't a race because it's not run round a city like a marathon.

vimfuego

D O G wrote:

Sportives are bobbins anyway, don't really understand why they are so massively popular.

Each to their own & all that.
Personally, I do a few every year, usually in places I'm not familiar with. The ease of just turning up & having a well thought out route set up for you, no navigation worries, safety net in the event of a major mechanical or injury, handily placed feedstations if you need them, great atmosphere & cameraderie on the road (admitedly I get this on club runs too but its always nice to chat to new people) and you can make the ride what you want. Happy to lay out a few quid every now & again to enjoy the experience and ride in places I probably wouldn't otherwise go to.

Fact is they are massively popular (more so than ever) - so they must be doing something right.

slowbike

vimfuego wrote:

Each to their own & all that.
Personally, I do a few every year, usually in places I'm not familiar with. The ease of just turning up & having a well thought out route set up for you, no navigation worries, safety net in the event of a major mechanical or injury, handily placed feedstations if you need them, great atmosphere & cameraderie on the road (admitedly I get this on club runs too but its always nice to chat to new people) and you can make the ride what you want. Happy to lay out a few quid every now & again to enjoy the experience and ride in places I probably wouldn't otherwise go to.

Exactly - sportives are popular for a variety of reasons, the two reasons I tend to do a few are:
1) Distance challenge - I don't tend to ride that far myself at the weekend, usually because it would be just myself. So a longer run is nice to do, especially if you can do that with some other riders.
2) Location change - changes from the rides over the same old roads - get different views and get a day/weekend away in some other part of the country that I wouldn't usually ride in.

Mikey23

Getting used to it now but it still scares me. Why this start when you like thing when the fast guys are going through the slow and the nervous silently, at speed and in packs. Mo farah didnt start at the back in the london marathon this year did he? Taking the classic as an example i had to make sure for my own safety that i was always in a straight line, couldnt really use a bottle while moving, had to go through all the potholes, darent wobble uphill. I have an arthritic neck so find it difficult to look behind. Ive even seen them do this on family rides with small children. Just dont get the mentality and the stupidity...

neeb

Mikey23 wrote:

Taking the classic as an example i had to make sure for my own safety that i was always in a straight line, couldnt really use a bottle while moving, had to go through all the potholes, darent wobble uphill.

To be honest, that's pretty normal when riding in a bunch (you get the hang of eating and drinking while doing it). Sounds like the problem with these events is that people of very widely differing abilities aren't separated at the start.

Mikey23 wrote:

Why this start when you like thing when the fast guys are going through the slow and the nervous silently, at speed and in packs. Mo farah didnt start at the back in the london marathon this year did he?

Exactly - sounds mad! Here's how it works it the Tour de Helsinki (quote from the instructions):

Designated pace groups
The pack will include riders aiming to finish with a certain average speed.
You don't need to sign up for any of these groups beforehand. The riders leading these groups are pacesetters; you don't have to follow these riders and you can move between groups freely. But please note that if you choose to ride in these groups, follow the instructions of the leading riders.

Each pace group has a couple of guys with little flags attached to their bikes so you can find the appropriate place to start at the beginning and stick to it if you want all of the way through.

Most things work better in Helsinki though (public transport, education, standards of service). Basically, people are just more sensible here.. ;-)

Mikey23

Excellent, thanks for that... In the classic this yes, thefirst two miles was a red zone and that certainly helped

StillGoing

Mikey23 wrote:

Getting used to it now but it still scares me. Why this start when you like thing when the fast guys are going through the slow and the nervous silently, at speed and in packs. Mo farah didnt start at the back in the london marathon this year did he? Taking the classic as an example i had to make sure for my own safety that i was always in a straight line, couldnt really use a bottle while moving, had to go through all the potholes, darent wobble uphill. I have an arthritic neck so find it difficult to look behind. Ive even seen them do this on family rides with small children. Just dont get the mentality and the stupidity...

I cant see the problem. Surely it makes sense to allow the slower riders to be heading off first so they get back at some reasonable hour allowing the organizers to pack away without worrying if someone is missing and the rider avoiding being ushered into the broom wagon because they'll miss the cut off? Bunch riding has to have control otherwise there would be mass pile ups. Holding your line doesn't mean you aren't allowed to move from it at all. If there's a pot hole, use your hand signals and your mouth and move out. Basic bike handling skills should mean you can take a water bottle out and put it back without meandering across the road.

Sportives are for all to participate in if they wish. I'll never race for various reasons, but I enjoy group riding and making the best progress I can. Sportives give me that opportunity. I may finish in the gold standard time, but I get passed by plenty of riders younger and/or fitter than me and it causes no problems to me or them. I'll even jump on their chain if it isn't going to break me. It's an opportunity for some to learn and experience group riding who may not belong to a club or usually ride with others, and it's another opportunity for groups to hone their techniques or help raise money for charity.

slowbike

Mikey23 wrote:

Getting used to it now but it still scares me. Why this start when you like thing when the fast guys are going through the slow and the nervous silently, at speed and in packs. Mo farah didnt start at the back in the london marathon this year did he? Taking the classic as an example i had to make sure for my own safety that i was always in a straight line, couldnt really use a bottle while moving, had to go through all the potholes, darent wobble uphill. I have an arthritic neck so find it difficult to look behind. Ive even seen them do this on family rides with small children. Just dont get the mentality and the stupidity...

I recognise the issues you raise.

On a sportive it shouldn't matter what speed you intend to ride at or what time you set off. Faster riders should give slower riders room and not pass within inches.
It can be difficult for the newbie rider to navigate around obstacles or drink - especially if they're worrying about being knocked off - I refer you to the paragraph above.

markhewitt1978

I like sportives for many reasons.
1) Challenging distance - usually, but not always further than I would do on a normal Sunday
2) Unfamiliar terrain - Not in the area I would normally cycle in
3) Route planned - The organisers have arranged the route in advance so in an unfamiliar area there's no navigation worries.
4) Other riders - It's fun getting in groups or chatting to people along the way, the last one I did I rode with one other rider for 80% of the course, I'd never seen him before or since!

I also do club runs from near home and solo rides from home.

neeb

philthy3 wrote:

I cant see the problem. Surely it makes sense to allow the slower riders to be heading off first so they get back at some reasonable hour allowing the organizers to pack away without worrying if someone is missing and the rider avoiding being ushered into the broom wagon because they'll miss the cut off?

But in an event of any length the difference in time between the first person starting and the last person starting is very small compared with the total time for the event as well as the difference in finishing times between first and last. It really does make much more sense to have the faster riders starting nearer the front. That way they are never going to be mixing with very inexperienced riders.

StillGoing

neeb wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I cant see the problem. Surely it makes sense to allow the slower riders to be heading off first so they get back at some reasonable hour allowing the organizers to pack away without worrying if someone is missing and the rider avoiding being ushered into the broom wagon because they'll miss the cut off?

But in an event of any length the difference in time between the first person starting and the last person starting is very small compared with the total time for the event as well as the difference in finishing times between first and last. It really does make much more sense to have the faster riders starting nearer the front. That way they are never going to be mixing with very inexperienced riders.

In my experience the faster riders usually do make their way to the front fairly quickly. Mass starts do have inexperienced riders changing their line without thinking that the rider behind may have to take avoiding action and the snowball downhill effect it has. Our group over the weekend consisted of experienced and inexperienced riders, one of which needed to be reminded to hold his line. He wasn't alone. The realisation that it was safer to be towards the front didn't take long to materialize.

Moonbiker

I enjoy wheelsucking in sportives then when rested jump to the next group up the road wheelsuck then repeat.

markhewitt1978

philthy3 wrote:

In my experience the faster riders usually do make their way to the front fairly quickly. Mass starts do have inexperienced riders changing their line without thinking that the rider behind may have to take avoiding action and the snowball downhill effect it has. Our group over the weekend consisted of experienced and inexperienced riders, one of which needed to be reminded to hold his line. He wasn't alone. The realisation that it was safer to be towards the front didn't take long to materialize.

Great North Bike Ride sets out from Seahouses and attracts a wide range of riders, from hard core roadies to kids on MTBs. There's a lot of riders, not sure maybe up to 1,000, and while it's not a mass start it might as well be as we all set off really quickly.

Problem is then at the start the faster riders get stuck behind hundreds of slower riders, and so take risks overtaking on the 'wrong' side of the road and into oncoming traffic, so it would make sense for that event to have some sort of seeding system to let the fast riders go first.

d_o_g

Sportives make doing a long(ish) ride relatively easy, particularly from administrative and personal responsibility aspects. This has been stated above as reasons why people like them, and so it attracts the sort of people who do not like taking personal responsibility and sorting their shizzle out themselves. Generally these are not the sort of people I want to be on the road with, and there are thousands of the beggars, which make sportives really busy, and concentrated with the sort of people I don't want to ride with.

Hence they are bobbins, and expensive.

vimfuego

D O G wrote:

Sportives make doing a long(ish) ride relatively easy, particularly from administrative and personal responsibility aspects. This has been stated above as reasons why people like them, and so it attracts the sort of people who do not like taking personal responsibility and sorting their shizzle out themselves. Generally these are not the sort of people I want to be on the road with, and there are thousands of the beggars, which make sportives really busy, and concentrated with the sort of people I don't want to ride with.

Hence they are bobbins, and expensive.

as I said - each to their own - either way, they're still not races!

d_o_g

That is one thing we agree on!

phreak

D O G wrote:

Sportives make doing a long(ish) ride relatively easy, particularly from administrative and personal responsibility aspects. This has been stated above as reasons why people like them, and so it attracts the sort of people who do not like taking personal responsibility and sorting their shizzle out themselves. Generally these are not the sort of people I want to be on the road with, and there are thousands of the beggars, which make sportives really busy, and concentrated with the sort of people I don't want to ride with.

Hence they are bobbins, and expensive.

I can't speak for UK sportives as I don't tend to do them, but that doesn't apply for continental ones (in my case anyway). The Maratona for instance is attractive because it's just a mighty fine event. The great route and food etc. are obviously nice, but the closed roads, the tv coverage, the former pros competing, the carnival atmosphere etc. all go into making it more attractive than just doing the route on your own another day of the year.

davep1

Slowbike wrote:

vimfuego wrote:

Each to their own & all that.
Personally, I do a few every year, usually in places I'm not familiar with. The ease of just turning up & having a well thought out route set up for you, no navigation worries, safety net in the event of a major mechanical or injury, handily placed feedstations if you need them, great atmosphere & cameraderie on the road (admitedly I get this on club runs too but its always nice to chat to new people) and you can make the ride what you want. Happy to lay out a few quid every now & again to enjoy the experience and ride in places I probably wouldn't otherwise go to.

Exactly - sportives are popular for a variety of reasons, the two reasons I tend to do a few are:
1) Distance challenge - I don't tend to ride that far myself at the weekend, usually because it would be just myself. So a longer run is nice to do, especially if you can do that with some other riders.
2) Location change - changes from the rides over the same old roads - get different views and get a day/weekend away in some other part of the country that I wouldn't usually ride in.

Thank God for some reasoned response to all the patronising cack I've been reading from the "you're not a real cyclist if you don't race for a club" brigade! Some of the worst riders on sportives are club riders, they pay no attention to other road users.
I do 3-4 sportives a year too, and enjoy them for the reasons above. I like doing them on roads I know because I usually cycle alone or with a small group of friends, so I find it interesting to do an event with new people on roads I know.
I did a 60 miler last weekend, and was solo for probably 50 or more miles. At one point, two of us got together and shared the load and our pace increased; we picked up 3 or 4 others so got a reasonably sized bunch together, although it was still just the two of us doing the work on the front. I've done other sportives where I've been in a bunch for nearly the whole distance.
It might be the sportives I have done have attracted more serious/frequent cyclists, but there haven't been many inexperienced cyclists on them. I still don't understand why one cyclist feels it is ok to pass another cyclist mm apart; I would have expected them to understand the "sneeze factor".