So sportives aren't races?
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Some may say that people who treat sportives as races are damaging cycle racing and behaving irresponsibly. Some may say the rider concerned here shouldn't be admitting to doing this sort of thing. (Down with this sort of thing!), some may say that if he wants to race he should enter a race.0
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markhewitt1978 wrote:Some may say that people who treat sportives as races are damaging cycle racing and behaving irresponsibly. Some may say the rider concerned here shouldn't be admitting to doing this sort of thing. (Down with this sort of thing!), some may say that if he wants to race he should enter a race.
Some say that the Police are taking an interest in sportives and the way that the participants ride in them. Some say they're taking a similar interest in Strava.
TBH, I have no problem with people going for fast times whenever they can and in whatever event - providing they do it sensibly. I've done the odd Village Sign sprint whilst out on club runs - they're harmless, providing all the riders are sensible enough. In clubs most riders tended to be sensible, but with the influx of new riders (of which I am one) the standard will naturally drop - and when the dropped standard becomes the norm then that's when it all starts to fall apart.
Being first back for a sportive is fine - In the couple I've done at my pace I've looked to see how I compare against others - but in the complete knowledge that not everyone would've been "racing" it ... so you won't see me posting an 8th place at such and such sportive ... because that's just wrong!0 -
As a BC commissaire I'm all for regulating events that threaten the right to hold road races on the open road as it threatens the existence of the sport. 99.9% of road races are promoted by clubs solely for the sport and are not commercial enterprise. If sportive riders don't understand this, then the obligation should be on the organisers to do so. Anyone who thinks 'winning' a sportive has kudos should try do a proper race and stop kidding themselves.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Monty Dog wrote:As a BC commissaire I'm all for regulating events that threaten the right to hold road races on the open road as it threatens the existence of the sport. 99.9% of road races are promoted by clubs solely for the sport and are not commercial enterprise. If sportive riders don't understand this, then the obligation should be on the organisers to do so. Anyone who thinks 'winning' a sportive has kudos should try do a proper race and stop kidding themselves.
As ever, they just flippin well miss the point of road racing.. clueless sods
It has nothing to do with times/Strava times..totally irrelevant... it is about beating the others on the road .
Sadly, they are not alone in their attitude to riding in these sanctioned but freeforall events on public roads.
Given that their membership pack includes a lot of stuff pertaining to accidents.. maybe the mortal sportivist should get to grips with bike handling skills before they throw themselves down blind descents.0 -
Monty Dog wrote:As a BC commissaire I'm all for regulating events that threaten the right to hold road races on the open road as it threatens the existence of the sport. 99.9% of road races are promoted by clubs solely for the sport and are not commercial enterprise. If sportive riders don't understand this, then the obligation should be on the organisers to do so. Anyone who thinks 'winning' a sportive has kudos should try do a proper race and stop kidding themselves.
Well said, if the poseurs that claim wins of sportives, or our Centuries here in the states were to show up for a BC or USAC organized event and have to do a race as it should be executed it would be entertaining to watch them. Most have no idea of what actual racing entails. I volunteered at a century ride a while back and the first guy in came across the finish point yelling at two of us for his time, no timing was offered or promised to the entrants. He got irate and wheeled off cussing at us. Twits are everywhere.Lets just got for a ride, the heck with all this stuff...0 -
what threatens events on the public roads is the number of accidents in road races and the lack of any discipline applied by comms, to poor riding.
even the youth tour of the N.west was littered with accidents, huge fields on narrow ccts and a calvalier attitude to safety and these were children!
Sportives I agree don't help but accidents in those are relatively few and complaints about these tend to be along the lines of "my journey was delayed...."
as for sportives being races, of course they are, most "competitors" ride them as a "race", so that's what they are, training plans are published and riders are encourage to beat their own PB! its irrelevant that they r not sanctioned as such by BC or who ever!! even so called responsible events have timing, results lists and gold/silver/bronze cats...sorry standards.
BC need to look at why so many do Sportives (and why riders treat them as races) and the reasons seem to be elitism and the perception that races are dangerous and good way to AE.
In Europe many sportive events are treated as such, with seedings, podiums and large prize lists, why should it be any different here?
and no I don't ride them in the uk and yes I do race.0 -
mamba80 wrote:In Europe many sportive events are treated as such, with seedings, podiums and large prize lists, why should it be any different here?
Nobody said it shouldn't be different here. But that would require a sea-change in the way sportive events are sanctioned and run, and the organisers would have to bear the additional costs and responsibilities involved.
I would love to see local sportives run as 70 mile or 100 mile single lap races, but can you see sportive organisers taking on risk assessment, police & highway notification, communication to local residents and all of the other stuff, which is already hard enough for organisers running 'conventional' 10-15 mile multi-lap races?0 -
You cannot run a sportive as a race because the law that governs cycle racing on the road limits the number of competitors to (in general) 80, so they would instantly become uncommercial.
But I don't see any reason why sportives shouldn't have some element of competition. Even on open road events why not time sections of climbs? Or a long flat section with no junctions? Introduce a little of what happens in a race but without instituting total war from start to finish.
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paul2718 wrote:You cannot run a sportive as a race because the law that governs cycle racing on the road limits the number of competitors to (in general) 80, so they would instantly become uncommercial.
Certainly 'less commercially viable', that's true. Many road race organisers are able to at least break even on road race events, despite having significantly higher overheads than most sportive organisers. The profit margins would be dramatically reduced though..paul2718 wrote:But I don't see any reason why sportives shouldn't have some element of competition. Even on open road events why not time sections of climbs? Or a long flat section with no junctions? Introduce a little of what happens in a race but without instituting total war from start to finish.
Paul
Because as soon as you do that, it becomes competitive - and more than likely invalidates the level of PLI and other insurances which sportive organisers are currently allowed to take out for 'non-competitive' events.0 -
Imposter wrote:mamba80 wrote:In Europe many sportive events are treated as such, with seedings, podiums and large prize lists, why should it be any different here?
Nobody said it shouldn't be different here. But that would require a sea-change in the way sportive events are sanctioned and run, and the organisers would have to bear the additional costs and responsibilities involved.
I would love to see local sportives run as 70 mile or 100 mile single lap races, but can you see sportive organisers taking on risk assessment, police & highway notification, communication to local residents and all of the other stuff, which is already hard enough for organisers running 'conventional' 10-15 mile multi-lap races?
no I cant see that happening, there too many hurdles to jump but just because it doesn't become legal wont stop it from (already) happening.......
and yes, even loops of 20 or 30mile ccts are like hens teeth! but this is one of the reasons people race sportives and why they are so popular, ride at a local crit in the middle of some deserted air field for 50mins? get blown away in a flat boring 3/4 40mile multi lap RR, complete with crashes ? (not to mention the expense of a racing licence, club fees and kit) or ride with loads of other riders in big groups, going up iconic local climbs, imagining you are actually the next BW
Sportives are very much like road running races, you ve the top echelon and then you ve the multitude of club runners who can have a great time, race one another and have a social all in one, RR is nothing like that, get dropped, ride round looking and feeling like a failure :oops: or go sneak off an early bath! either way, its not a great day.0 -
This is actually a pretty complex subject, and of interest to me as I am moving back to the UK from Finland later this year.
In Finland we have a road races, for which you need a racing license, as well as a few sportives. However the sportives are often also races in that if you have a racing license you can register in a different category. Usually these are mass start events with anything up to 1000 or even 2000 starters, although the percentage of people in the "race" category is very small, maybe 50 - 80 people in total. Sometimes the people with racing licenses start with everyone else but right at the front, so they quickly form a smallish lead group with maybe a few "non-racers" in it who can manage the pace. That said, the biggest event now has the racers starting comfortably ahead of the main group to keep them separate.
In proper racing we only have two categories, Elite and "kilpa" ("race"). Perhaps because of this even the race category is pretty hard - for example the last race I did was 100km (over 5 laps on a fairly rolling course) with an average speed of exactly 25mph. I can just about manage to finish in the bunch in these events but I'm right on my limits, and for many even very fit club cyclists the pace is just too hard. Also of course, many of the races are much shorter than 100km which really disadvantages skinny guys like me who can't put out massive absolute wattage - I always do much better in longer events (whether races or sportives).
So without having direct experience of the UK scene yet I can see how some people who want to compete might choose to do so in sportives rather than entering 20 mile fast crits on a small closed circuit.. I must admit I'm a bit worried about what my racing options will be in the UK, despite the sport being much bigger there - I'm fairly sure I could aspire to 3rd cat, but the idea of doing multiple laps of a tight closed loop circuit with lots of big guys doesn't appeal much...0 -
paul2718 wrote:But I don't see any reason why sportives shouldn't have some element of competition. Even on open road events why not time sections of climbs? Or a long flat section with no junctions? Introduce a little of what happens in a race but without instituting total war from start to finish.
A recent Velo29 sportive in North Yorkshire had a KOM challenge, basically where there was a segment created and signs indicated the start and end of the segment, and those running strava were encouraged to compete over the distance. It was a steep climb with no junctions, but the competition was there.0 -
Simply rule: Number on the back means a race, number on the handlebars means look like you are racing when you see the camera.0
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To me it seems simple. If entrants are timed (or all start at the same time) and prizes of some form (cash, trophy, ranking points) awarded to the fastest, the event is a race. That's not to say every participant will be trying to win.
By this measure, time trials are a form of racing; so is the London Marathon.
I've taken part in the Ronde Picarde (part of the same series as the Marmotte) and the Nove Colli, both of which are races by this definition. Most of the entrants have no aspiration to win anything. None of the UK sportives I've done qualify, probably for the legal reason outlined earlier in the thread.
The guy in the original story deserves as much praise for winning an event that wasn't actually a race, as whoever is first past the arbitrary finishing line in my club's chaingang sprint this evening. (It won't be me.)0 -
neeb wrote:So without having direct experience of the UK scene yet I can see how some people who want to compete might choose to do so in sportives rather than entering 20 mile fast crits on a small closed circuit.. I must admit I'm a bit worried about what my racing options will be in the UK, despite the sport being much bigger there - I'm fairly sure I could aspire to 3rd cat, but the idea of doing multiple laps of a tight closed loop circuit with lots of big guys doesn't appeal much...
There are plenty of 3/4 road races (not tight crits) you can enter. Would probably suit you well as sounds like you are used to fast races which would probably correspond to a 2/3/4 race over here. Most 3/4 are 40-50miles and 2/3/4 50miles plus.0 -
Imposter wrote:Carbonator wrote:If some of the people are racing you (which they certainly will be) then its a race (as long as you are racing them).
If you are quicker than people then you beat them, its there own fault for not racing if they do not like that lol.
I stopped saying "I was not racing you" when I was about 10.
This is either a wind-up, or you don't understand the difference in legal status between competitive events and sportives. I'm going to assume it's a wind-up.
Don't worry. Carbonator is just unbelievably thick.0 -
Slowbike wrote:Some say that the Police are taking an interest in sportives and the way that the participants ride in them. Some say they're taking a similar interest in Strava.
I can't help but read that in a Jeremy-Clarkson-introduces-the-Stig type voice...
Sorry.
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All we know is, it's not the Stig! It's the Stig's overweight wannabe racer cousin!0
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Colinthecop wrote:Slowbike wrote:Some say that the Police are taking an interest in sportives and the way that the participants ride in them. Some say they're taking a similar interest in Strava.
I can't help but read that in a Jeremy-Clarkson-introduces-the-Stig type voice...
Sorry.
Don't be sorry!
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DavidJB wrote:This is ridiculous.
http://www.wearemortal.net/#!MORTAL-Tea ... 530E5117D9
It's got it all, high pace, strava segments and chases.
Is this the cycling version of The Onion?
Or maybe the young man in question is fresh of the press from this - http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... 960-41388/
I can't decide which is worse!0 -
Monty Dog wrote:As a BC commissaire I'm all for regulating events that threaten the right to hold road races on the open road as it threatens the existence of the sport. 99.9% of road races are promoted by clubs solely for the sport and are not commercial enterprise. If sportive riders don't understand this, then the obligation should be on the organisers to do so. Anyone who thinks 'winning' a sportive has kudos should try do a proper race and stop kidding themselves.
Firstly, I agree with most in the sportives are not races. This does not mean that people should be frowned upon for wanting to complete the course in as fast a time as possible. The term fast is relative to the individual. A slower rider might ride to their full potential and complete a sportive with an average speed of 15mph. A stronger rider might ride more within themselves and still complete it with a far higher average. The important thing is people ride safely and give consideration to all other road users. If they do this, who are we to judge them?
Most people who race are only racers by the definition that they enter races. Most turn up with no chance of winning and are either content or only capable of sitting at the back of the pack and take advantage of drafting. There are many strong riders who for whatever reason have no intention of racing. Yes, some racers would therefore be capable of posting far times in sportives should they wish, but lots will not have the power or aerobic capability of doing so.0 -
Idiot mortal man is expressing what many people think in these sportives. Doing dartmoor classic on sunday and ive no doubt i will meet many of these cretins whizzing up and down narrow country lanes and coexisting with unsuspecting motorists and nervous and slow cyclists in order to fulfil their warped wannabe testosterone fuelled egos. Happens in every sportive ive been in and dont think this will be different
Which is fine and dandy until one brings me down at which point they will regret it...0 -
BrandonA wrote:Firstly, I agree with most in the sportives are not races. This does not mean that people should be frowned upon for wanting to complete the course in as fast a time as possible. The term fast is relative to the individual. A slower rider might ride to their full potential and complete a sportive with an average speed of 15mph. A stronger rider might ride more within themselves and still complete it with a far higher average. The important thing is people ride safely and give consideration to all other road users. If they do this, who are we to judge them?
Most people who race are only racers by the definition that they enter races. Most turn up with no chance of winning and are either content or only capable of sitting at the back of the pack and take advantage of drafting. There are many strong riders who for whatever reason have no intention of racing. Yes, some racers would therefore be capable of posting far times in sportives should they wish, but lots will not have the power or aerobic capability of doing so.
The relative ability of riders entering sportives or races is not the issue though. In races, you have a group of riders, some of whom will have a better chance of winning than others by virtue of their fitness or experience. In sportives, you also have a group of riders, some of whom will ride the distance faster than others for the same reasons - in some cases, they could even be the same riders. But that's not the point. The point is that if sportives come to be regarded as 'de facto' races, then they will be jumped on very quickly by BC, the police and the relevant local authority - and they will then be forced to become either one or the other, as opposed to this ridiculous 'blurred' definition of the two, which currently exists.0 -
Good to know, thanks.thiscocks wrote:There are plenty of 3/4 road races (not tight crits) you can enter. Would probably suit you well as sounds like you are used to fast races which would probably correspond to a 2/3/4 race over here. Most 3/4 are 40-50miles and 2/3/4 50miles plus.0 -
There's nothing wrong with trying to complete a sportive as quickly as you can - within the constraints of the highway code and general road etiquette.
It becomes a problem when (the few) turn it into a race and behave as though the road is their race track. That's when they start taking chances at junctions, carving up other road users (cars, lorries, buses & cyclists alike) and generally behaving like unsocial idiots.
The more this happens the more complaints the police get and the more likely the police will look to curtail these activities.0 -
neeb wrote:
Good to know, thanks.thiscocks wrote:There are plenty of 3/4 road races (not tight crits) you can enter. Would probably suit you well as sounds like you are used to fast races which would probably correspond to a 2/3/4 race over here. Most 3/4 are 40-50miles and 2/3/4 50miles plus.
Yes there are lots of open road races you can enter. You may have trouble getting in one as a 4th cat but you should get out of that with ease by doing a few crits from the sounds of it. You don't have to worry about 'The big guys' in crits, just race smart and you'll beat them.0 -
I think if there are 2 or more cyclists in an "event" on the same piece of road at the same time and both want to get to point "A" first then they are racing irrespective of what the event is called, you can say technically the event is not a race all you want, to those cyclists riding it is, and if they want to enjoy their moment by telling others where they finished and how they achieved it so what.
Whatever your feelings about strava, every event has its segments some short, some long and some the entire course, sportives allow mixed ability's to do their own thing whether its enjoying the scenery, segment chasing or riding the full event at race pace.....results are there for all to see instantly....prizes and official listings are not required....kudos will be..yes deserved for those at the top......even for those "club" riders that shock horror ride sportives at race pace the full event.0 -
Yup, it's called training for real races under regs ;-)ravenvrider wrote:I think if there are 2 or more cyclists in an "event" on the same piece of road at the same time and both want to get to point "A" first then they are racing irrespective of what the event is called, you can say technically the event is not a race all you want, to those cyclists riding it is, and if they want to enjoy their moment by telling others where they finished and how they achieved it so what.
Whatever your feelings about strava, every event has its segments some short, some long and some the entire course, sportives allow mixed ability's to do their own thing whether its enjoying the scenery, segment chasing or riding the full event at race pace.....results are there for all to see instantly....prizes and official listings are not required....kudos will be..yes deserved for those at the top......even for those "club" riders that shock horror ride sportives at race pace the full event.0 -
I'd like to try proper road races but
1. im to slow
2. there are hardly are many road races around locally, as oppssed to the numerous sportives,0 -
I guess people attribute meaning to words in different ways. For me, if someone says "I finished XXX sportive in the lowest time of the day", that's fine. If they say "Today I won the XXX sportive", then they loose credibility in my book. Words like "Won" and "Beat" suggest that someone had an agreement with all other competitors that the objective was to maximise speed. This is implicit in a road race, albeit not all can "win". It is far from implicit in a sportive. I do not have a problem with someone saying "I beat XXX in today's sportive" if an agreement was made between the 2 riders to see who could complete the course fastest.
Perhaps other's interpret words differently but that's my take on it.0
