Whey Protein

charlie_potatoes

phreak wrote:

The thing about recovery window is always used, but very seldom is it actually said how much it apparently speeds up the recovery process. I did a bit of digging and found this

http://evidencemag.com/recovery-window/

It suggests that a dedicated recovery meal inside the magic window is only really needed if you're going to train again within 24 hours of your workout finishing. Anything beyond that and a regular diet will replenish yourself perfectly adequately.

The study linked in the above article suggests post workout glycogen levels may be <100, with ~300 @ 8 hours and ~500 @24 hours. There was no discernible difference in those values for those eating normally vs during the 30 minute window.

The authors of that paper suggest an immediate meal/snack after a workout is only really required if you're doing another session within 8 hours of the first. Even if we train/compete every day that seems unlikely.

I had a quick glance at that site earlier. Interesting reading.
Whether or not I am training within 24 hours makes no difference for me.
I often need to function within a couple of hours for activities outside of cycling so quick carb and/or protein replacement would still make sense.
I have not read any where of negative effects of a recovery drink?
My biggest calorie burn so far this year is over 5,000 and I generally burn 3,000 at least once a week. A 200 calorie recovery drink as soon as I get out of the saddle is very welcome.

But I'm not addicted to them. I could give up anytime I wanted

johnny25

Stalin wrote:

johnny25 wrote:

I'd like to think most athletes, casual or serious, are intelligent enough to make a considered decision about what and what not to put in their bodies.

I'm sure all the cyclists who get drug busted make such considered opinions.

We're taking about whey protein, not erythropoietin.

And I said 'most athletes' as I was expecting a silly comment like yours.

Stalin

johnny25 wrote:

Stalin wrote:

johnny25 wrote:

I'd like to think most athletes, casual or serious, are intelligent enough to make a considered decision about what and what not to put in their bodies.

I'm sure all the cyclists who get drug busted make such considered opinions.

We're taking about whey protein, not erythropoietin.

And I said 'most athletes' as I was expecting a silly comment like yours.

I was referring to cyclists who get busted. I would also say the same about any sportsmen who get busted for drugs.

Velonutter

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

It's convenient to use for the recovery 'window' just after a hard/long ride. It seems to make sense to do so IMO.

100% Absolutely totally agree, and as a vegetarian where can you get sufficient protein in within 20 minutes of finishing cycling.

I have a few health complications and have noticed major differences in many of the proprietary brands of protein recoveries, the one that is working best for me is the Myprotein Diet Whey Protein, very impressive recovery.

Stalin - Why do the likes of Dr Gary Palmer give you a protein drink as soon as you finish your sports test?

Strikes me Stalin that you are a bit too eager with Google instead or proving it through research!

phreak

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

phreak wrote:

The thing about recovery window is always used, but very seldom is it actually said how much it apparently speeds up the recovery process. I did a bit of digging and found this

http://evidencemag.com/recovery-window/

It suggests that a dedicated recovery meal inside the magic window is only really needed if you're going to train again within 24 hours of your workout finishing. Anything beyond that and a regular diet will replenish yourself perfectly adequately.

The study linked in the above article suggests post workout glycogen levels may be <100, with ~300 @ 8 hours and ~500 @24 hours. There was no discernible difference in those values for those eating normally vs during the 30 minute window.

The authors of that paper suggest an immediate meal/snack after a workout is only really required if you're doing another session within 8 hours of the first. Even if we train/compete every day that seems unlikely.

I had a quick glance at that site earlier. Interesting reading.
Whether or not I am training within 24 hours makes no difference for me.
I often need to function within a couple of hours for activities outside of cycling so quick carb and/or protein replacement would still make sense.
I have not read any where of negative effects of a recovery drink?
My biggest calorie burn so far this year is over 5,000 and I generally burn 3,000 at least once a week. A 200 calorie recovery drink as soon as I get out of the saddle is very welcome.

But I'm not addicted to them. I could give up anytime I wanted

The thing I got from the article is that the recovery window doesn't really exist, ie that there is no benefit to having food within 30 minutes of exercise. It seems to provide no noticeable boost to muscle glycogen levels over eating a normal diet.

If you're hungry at the end of a ride, then by all means have something to eat, but the research appears to suggest that a dedicated recovery drink will make very little difference.

Stalin

Velonutter wrote:

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

It's convenient to use for the recovery 'window' just after a hard/long ride. It seems to make sense to do so IMO.

100% Absolutely totally agree, and as a vegetarian where can you get sufficient protein in within 20 minutes of finishing cycling.

I have a few health complications and have noticed major differences in many of the proprietary brands of protein recoveries, the one that is working best for me is the Myprotein Diet Whey Protein, very impressive recovery.

Stalin - Why do the likes of Dr Gary Palmer give you a protein drink as soon as you finish your sports test?

Strikes me Stalin that you are a bit too eager with Google instead or proving it through research!

I don't give a damn what strikes you mate.

http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/4/e001702.full

There is a striking lack of evidence to support the vast majority of sports-related products that make claims related to enhanced performance or recovery, including drinks, supplements and footwear. Half of all websites for these products provided no evidence for their claims, and of those that do, half of the evidence is not suitable for critical appraisal. No systematic reviews were found, and overall, the evidence base was judged to be at high risk of bias. Half of the trials were not randomised, and only 7% reported adequate allocation concealment. We found only three trials that were reported with sufficient details to be judged high quality and free from bias.

charlie_potatoes

phreak wrote:

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

phreak wrote:

The thing about recovery window is always used, but very seldom is it actually said how much it apparently speeds up the recovery process. I did a bit of digging and found this

http://evidencemag.com/recovery-window/

It suggests that a dedicated recovery meal inside the magic window is only really needed if you're going to train again within 24 hours of your workout finishing. Anything beyond that and a regular diet will replenish yourself perfectly adequately.

The study linked in the above article suggests post workout glycogen levels may be <100, with ~300 @ 8 hours and ~500 @24 hours. There was no discernible difference in those values for those eating normally vs during the 30 minute window.

The authors of that paper suggest an immediate meal/snack after a workout is only really required if you're doing another session within 8 hours of the first. Even if we train/compete every day that seems unlikely.

I had a quick glance at that site earlier. Interesting reading.
Whether or not I am training within 24 hours makes no difference for me.
I often need to function within a couple of hours for activities outside of cycling so quick carb and/or protein replacement would still make sense.
I have not read any where of negative effects of a recovery drink?
My biggest calorie burn so far this year is over 5,000 and I generally burn 3,000 at least once a week. A 200 calorie recovery drink as soon as I get out of the saddle is very welcome.

But I'm not addicted to them. I could give up anytime I wanted

The thing I got from the article is that the recovery window doesn't really exist, ie that there is no benefit to having food within 30 minutes of exercise. It seems to provide no noticeable boost to muscle glycogen levels over eating a normal diet.

If you're hungry at the end of a ride, then by all means have something to eat, but the research appears to suggest that a dedicated recovery drink will make very little difference.

But for every one article that says it doesn't exist there are ten that say it does?

My subjective opinion is that it seems to work for me and as I have not read any compelling reason not to I'll continue.

I just don't see any situation where I would want to delay recovery regardless of whether the window exists or not.

But you pays your money and takes your choice

Stalin

Velonutter wrote:

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

It's convenient to use for the recovery 'window' just after a hard/long ride. It seems to make sense to do so IMO.

100% Absolutely totally agree, and as a vegetarian where can you get sufficient protein in within 20 minutes of finishing cycling.

I have a few health complications and have noticed major differences in many of the proprietary brands of protein recoveries, the one that is working best for me is the Myprotein Diet Whey Protein, very impressive recovery.

Stalin - Why do the likes of Dr Gary Palmer give you a protein drink as soon as you finish your sports test?

Strikes me Stalin that you are a bit too eager with Google instead or proving it through research!

By the way, talking of evidence and research. Can you post any research or evidence, other than advertising and marketing blurb?

phreak

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

phreak wrote:

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

phreak wrote:

The thing about recovery window is always used, but very seldom is it actually said how much it apparently speeds up the recovery process. I did a bit of digging and found this

http://evidencemag.com/recovery-window/

It suggests that a dedicated recovery meal inside the magic window is only really needed if you're going to train again within 24 hours of your workout finishing. Anything beyond that and a regular diet will replenish yourself perfectly adequately.

The study linked in the above article suggests post workout glycogen levels may be <100, with ~300 @ 8 hours and ~500 @24 hours. There was no discernible difference in those values for those eating normally vs during the 30 minute window.

The authors of that paper suggest an immediate meal/snack after a workout is only really required if you're doing another session within 8 hours of the first. Even if we train/compete every day that seems unlikely.

I had a quick glance at that site earlier. Interesting reading.
Whether or not I am training within 24 hours makes no difference for me.
I often need to function within a couple of hours for activities outside of cycling so quick carb and/or protein replacement would still make sense.
I have not read any where of negative effects of a recovery drink?
My biggest calorie burn so far this year is over 5,000 and I generally burn 3,000 at least once a week. A 200 calorie recovery drink as soon as I get out of the saddle is very welcome.

But I'm not addicted to them. I could give up anytime I wanted

The thing I got from the article is that the recovery window doesn't really exist, ie that there is no benefit to having food within 30 minutes of exercise. It seems to provide no noticeable boost to muscle glycogen levels over eating a normal diet.

If you're hungry at the end of a ride, then by all means have something to eat, but the research appears to suggest that a dedicated recovery drink will make very little difference.

But for every one article that says it doesn't exist there are ten that say it does?

My subjective opinion is that it seems to work for me and as I have not read any compelling reason not to I'll continue.

I just don't see any situation where I would want to delay recovery regardless of whether the window exists or not.

But you pays your money and takes your choice

Aye, it's all individual choice. I gave up on protein powder a few years ago and it doesn't seem to have effected my cycling at all. As a lad I'd do an awful lot of training, with swimming and weights meaning quite often they'd be two sessions per day (albeit one at 6am, the other in the evening) and that was doable without any idea about 'sports nutrition'.

For what it's worth, the reason I searched and found that original article was that none of the articles I'd read previously advocating a post-workout snack/meal ever said how much it sped recovery up by. It just did, and they never compared the meal based recovery with a regular diet recovery. It all seemed a bit fuzzy.

If there are studies out there that show an explicit improvement (ie you're recovered within 4 hours rather than 8 for a regular diet) then I'd love to see them.

PompeyPaul

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

It's convenient to use for the recovery 'window' just after a hard/long ride. It seems to make sense to do so IMO.

There you go!
Im usually travelling home in a car after a Road Race .... at the exact time i should be eating to recover........

jjsh

You may find this article interesting ~ it's properly sourced, and written by someone qualified (Bsc RNutr), although I suspect that those who have taken an absolutist position in this thread will only really see the bits that support their argument, as is often the case.

http://www.anitabean.co.uk/2014/05/new-rules-protein/#sthash.1CzUOHIC.dpbs

Velonutter

Thanks JJSH, nice and simple and clearly put :-)

charlie_potatoes

Velonutter wrote:

Thanks JJSH, nice and simple and clearly put :-)

+1

michaelede

Chocolate milk is king, optimal ratio of protein (both whey and casesin, so fast and slow digesting) to carbs for recovery and plenty cheaper than protein powders, what's not to like? (obviously if your lactose intolerant it isn't so great...)

Stalin

JJSH wrote:

You may find this article interesting ~ it's properly sourced, and written by someone qualified (Bsc RNutr), although I suspect that those who have taken an absolutist position in this thread will only really see the bits that support their argument, as is often the case.

http://www.anitabean.co.uk/2014/05/new-rules-protein/#sthash.1CzUOHIC.dpbs

So shall we start here by quoting the conclusion

""To sum up, consume some protein <4h before your workout, have a fast-digesting protein source (e.g. milk or whey shake) < 2h hours after your workout (if you plan to train again within 24h), 20 – 30g of high-quality protein like eggs, meat, poultry, fish, milk or yogurt with each meal and some with your snacks (nuts, yogurt, cheese). - See more at: http://www.anitabean.co.uk/2014/05/new- ... sj86R.dpuf""

The above suggests whey as an alternative to milk. If you wish to cut down on fat, go for skimmed milk. Skimmed milk is more convenient than poncing about like an old tart with whey powder. If you are worried about your milk staying fresh on hot days you can use long life, which, until opened, stays fresh for months. An even better alternative to cows milk is goats milk which is naturally lower in fat. Another alternative is yoghurt. Again it comes in really convenient containers and needs no mixing, you just eat it as it is. Then there is this other amazingly convenient high protein food, nuts. Fantastic, they come in these special stay fresh bags and you can eat them right out the bag. No need to add powder or water or anything.

Next let's quote this bit.
""New research suggests the post-exercise ‘anabolic window of opportunity’ may be wider than once thought, perhaps as long as 24h. Previous studies suggesting a 2 hour post-exercise window have been done with fasted individuals - See more at: http://www.anitabean.co.uk/2014/05/new- ... Gy4j8.dpuf""

So the anabolic window is a myth.

Then this bit is really entertaining.

""If you’re not intending to exercise within 24 hours, then it’s less critical to refuel immediately afterwards. Provided you get your daily protein and carbohydrate (and other nutrients) over the next 24 hours, then you’ll recover equally well by your next session. - See more at: http://www.anitabean.co.uk/2014/05/new- ... Gy4j8.dpuf""

And then this bit is even funnier,

""Milk (a naturally rich leucine source) is one of the best recovery foods. Studies here and here show that consuming it in the immediate post-exercise period increases MPS. - See more at: http://www.anitabean.co.uk/2014/05/new- ... i98Og.dpuf""

Milk is so convenient. You know there are these blokes who get up really early and deliver it to you doorstep so you always have it fresh to drink just before your morning training session. Fantastic stuff, comes in bottles or cartons or long life. You can drink it out the bottle or carton. No need to add water or powder. No need to use plastic bottles which need washing properly, just open carton and drink.

jjsh

So the anabolic window is a myth.

That's not exactly what Ms Bean, or the quoted paper say, to be fair.

charlie_potatoes

Stalin wrote:

Then this bit is really entertaining.



And then this bit is even funnier,

You need to get out more Trev!

Stalin

JJSH wrote:

So the anabolic window is a myth.

That's not exactly what Ms Bean, or the quoted paper say, to be fair.

I missed out the question mark.

The paper is worth reading.

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

jjsh

It is indeed, and it would appear to suggest that there are other environmental factors, such as the fasted / non-fasted state of an athlete before exercise, in addition to training frequency ~ however, it does also cite conflicting research, suggesting that this isn't a settled area of dietetics.

Which is why I would dare to suggest that it would be difficult to give a de facto answer to a simple question such as 'is protein source x any good / should I take it / when and how much' without establishing those environmental factors, in addition behavioural factors, such as convenience versus compliance, e.g how likely is it that an athlete will consume an optimal amount of any macro in its most economically efficient form, if that form is less convenient than one that is possibly less economically efficient, and what are the trade off’s?

It's stuff like this that I find really interesting, and is also why my partner groans when I start going apoplectic at some muppet on the telly promoting the latest fad diet. But that's a different story!

I can highly recommend Anita Beans Complete Guide to Sports Nutrition, btw.

hypster

Stalin wrote:

JJSH wrote:

So the anabolic window is a myth.

That's not exactly what Ms Bean, or the quoted paper say, to be fair.

I missed out the question mark.

The paper is worth reading.

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

Very interesting but a lot of conflicting facts and advice I would say, much of it not applicable to endurance cyclists regularly embarking on 8 hour century rides.

As JJSH said earlier:

"I suspect that those who have taken an absolutist position in this thread will only really see the bits that support their argument, as is often the case."

It's called Confirmation Bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I'm fully prepared to accept that an anabolic window may well not exist and that whey protein supplementation may well be unnecessary. However, I actually do look forward to my mocha whey smoothie at the end of a long ride and until the research is a bit more definitive, I'll continue to consume one.

p.s.

As I am 58 years old I found this extract particularly interesting:

In contrast, Yang et al. [85] found that elderly subjects displayed greater increases in MPS when consuming a post-exercise dose of 40 g whey protein compared to 20 g. These findings suggest that older subjects require higher individual protein doses for the purpose of optimizing the anabolic response to training.


Maybe you youngsters can get by gnawing on a chicken leg after a ride, us oldies need all the help we can get!

charlie_potatoes

hypster wrote:

I'm fully prepared to accept that an anabolic window may well not exist and that whey protein supplementation may well be unnecessary. However, I actually do look forward to my mocha whey smoothie at the end of a long ride and until the research is a bit more definitive, I'll continue to consume one.
:

This is my point exactly. I can see no reason to change. I suspect that the 'window' may be overstated for marketing reasons but it still seems perfectly logical to continue.