Dear Mr Gove by Jess Green
Comments
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johnfinch wrote:bdu98252 wrote:I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.
I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.
Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.
I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.
Yes, I can do maths and I've seen the sort of hours that my step-dad put in (it must be noted that he was also head of department and that his pupils constantly over-achieved in whatever school he taught in).
Look, seeing as you know so much about what a cushy life it is, I'm sure that you'll be signing up for your nearest PGCE.... won't you?
You really wouldn't believe what teachers are put through until you see it. Teachers really do work 60-70 hours a week and this includes doing a lot of work during their "13 weeks off". Time management in teaching is impossible. If you are given twice as much work as you have time and it all has to be completed on time there is no room for manoeuvre. It does not work like a normal private sector job where you can prioritise and even leave work as needed.
I couldn't understand it myself until seeing it more closely and it really is the worst run organisation in the public sector which is an achievement in its self.
Try being a full time teacher yourself
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Kajjal wrote:.....It does not work like a normal private sector job where you can prioritise and even leave work as needed.
Leave work as needed? I'm not sure where you work in the private sector but I suspect most people would be out the door if they left work unfinished due to lack of time!
I agree that teachers work long hours, I have seen it with my sister, but I agree with what was said above about 60 - 70 hours not being typical. It no doubt happens sometimes but we have seen a post above from a teacher who confirms that he can do his job properly in 45 - 50 hours. That's still a lot but sounds much more realistic.0 -
Kajjal wrote:johnfinch wrote:bdu98252 wrote:I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.
I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.
Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.
I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.
Yes, I can do maths and I've seen the sort of hours that my step-dad put in (it must be noted that he was also head of department and that his pupils constantly over-achieved in whatever school he taught in).
Look, seeing as you know so much about what a cushy life it is, I'm sure that you'll be signing up for your nearest PGCE.... won't you?
You really wouldn't believe what teachers are put through until you see it. Teachers really do work 60-70 hours a week and this includes doing a lot of work during their "13 weeks off". Time management in teaching is impossible. If you are given twice as much work as you have time and it all has to be completed on time there is no room for manoeuvre. It does not work like a normal private sector job where you can prioritise and even leave work as needed.
I couldn't understand it myself until seeing it more closely and it really is the worst run organisation in the public sector which is an achievement in its self.
Try being a full time teacher yourself
Your step dad may enjoy working 60-70 hours if this is even possible based on what you claim however I doubt it is a cast iron requirement of the job or essential to deliver a good lesson. If this claim is true then maybe this is why parents and pupils are complaining of inconsistent marking. I would not trust a calculation from an engineer at the end of a 70 hour week. I am sure that teachers do work hard however in many cases it is their choice to do so and whinging about it make them look like martyrs. I was in the education system not that long ago and do not recognise the ridiculous demands that are being claimed from my experience then or knowing teachers now. When I was sailing all summer with one of them I don't remember him once whinging about how he had a huge workload and had to get off home before his head exploded. He was a good teacher that had a persona and intelligence so could capture an audiences imagination easily and taught very well.0 -
Quite common in my office and in other offices I work in to do 60-70hr weeks for significant portions of the year.
Friends who teach are regularly still working past 10 at home marking and planning lessons.
More experienced teachers need less prep, sure.0 -
Pross wrote:I'm not sure the lack of teachers in certain subjects (maths, physics etc.) is due to the job being so tough. If that were the case surely it would be just as difficult to recruit teachers to other subjects or are we saying that for some reason it's tougher being a teacher in some subjects than others? I should think the shortage in those disciplines comes down to a) lack of interest in the subjects for pupils creating a shortage in those doing degrees in them b) those who do subjects such as physics are more interested in jobs where they get to use their knowledge to create e.g. become engineers or scientists. The big problem with a) is that if schools are recruiting whoever they can get rather than a teacher that will inspire students you end up with a downward spiral.
£££££££££££. A lot of it is related to comparatively weak pay given the training & hours required. More so than anything else.0 -
bdu98252 wrote:I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.
I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.
Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.
I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.
8-5 is 45hrs and pretty standard, full gas when the kids are in. 1-2 hrs a night after work at home or in the office is not hard to imagine. Then on the weekend up to 5hrs a day is not totally hors-norm (some prefer to do longer hours on the weekdays to free up the weekends).
Compare this to an office worker - 9-5 (although easy to do less) with 1hr lunch, 2 (subjective) hours procrastinating, and nothing when you go home or on the weekend.
In order to save time you can either:
a. not do all the BS paperwork and get reprimanded and fear losing your job.
b. mark very poorly which will save time.
My sister is an English teacher in London and has been in it for three years. All three of which probably lend themselves to increased hours relative to other subject teachers and those not in London in addition to being more experienced.
My brother is also an engineer so I have an informed view of that profession as well.
Maybe you should make it your mission to be properly informed about something before bringing the heavy talk.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:bdu98252 wrote:I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.
I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.
Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.
I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.
8-5 is 45hrs and pretty standard, full gas when the kids are in. 1-2 hrs a night after work at home or in the office is not hard to imagine. Then on the weekend up to 5hrs a day is not totally hors-norm (some prefer to do longer hours on the weekdays to free up the weekends).
Compare this to an office worker - 9-5 (although easy to do less) with 1hr lunch, 2 (subjective) hours procrastinating, and nothing when you go home or on the weekend.
In order to save time you can either:
a. not do all the BS paperwork and get reprimanded and fear losing your job.
b. mark very poorly which will save time.
My sister is an English teacher in London and has been in it for three years. All three of which probably lend themselves to increased hours relative to other subject teachers and those not in London in addition to being more experienced.
My brother is also an engineer so I have an informed view of that profession as well.
Maybe you should make it your mission to be properly informed about something before bringing the heavy talk.
Very true and fair comment. Most experts on teachers and the hours they work have little if any real life knowledge.0 -
Kajjal wrote:frenchfighter wrote:bdu98252 wrote:I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.
I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.
Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.
I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.
8-5 is 45hrs and pretty standard, full gas when the kids are in. 1-2 hrs a night after work at home or in the office is not hard to imagine. Then on the weekend up to 5hrs a day is not totally hors-norm (some prefer to do longer hours on the weekdays to free up the weekends).
Compare this to an office worker - 9-5 (although easy to do less) with 1hr lunch, 2 (subjective) hours procrastinating, and nothing when you go home or on the weekend.
In order to save time you can either:
a. not do all the BS paperwork and get reprimanded and fear losing your job.
b. mark very poorly which will save time.
My sister is an English teacher in London and has been in it for three years. All three of which probably lend themselves to increased hours relative to other subject teachers and those not in London in addition to being more experienced.
My brother is also an engineer so I have an informed view of that profession as well.
Maybe you should make it your mission to be properly informed about something before bringing the heavy talk.
Very true and fair comment. Most experts on teachers and the hours they work have little if any real life knowledge.
I know 3 teachers that I speak to regularly and none of them purport to spend even close to the hours your sister spends. If this is a game of X teacher works 100 hours a week so therefore it is an impossible job then feel free to go with that logic. You have actual teachers saying they can do the job in 40-50 hours in this very thread. My mates have a very good life teaching so maybe all these overwork teachers need to look at their current situation and either quit, address their skills or find a organisation that does not take the wee wee out of them if in fact this is the actual reason they are working ridiculous hours.
With regards to your informed opinion it appears that because you know 1 teacher and 1 engineer you are informed. You are no more or less informed than me. You just have different information.0 -
bdu98252 wrote:My mates have a very good life teaching so maybe all these overwork teachers need to look at their current situation and either quit, address their skills or find a organisation that does not take the wee wee out of them if in fact this is the actual reason they are working ridiculous hours.
1) Maybe your mates aren't as professional as the overworked teachers. Or maybe they're younger and haven't been ground down yet.
2) As I have said before, that's the big problem in the education system. Teachers are leaving in droves. Besides saying "stop whining", what would you do about this?0 -
Surely education is amongst the most important professions of all, the young malleable minds of the future entrusted to them. I would hope we try and support teachers as best we can. I do find it strange why people vilify teachers or nurses based on a few bad apples.
On the hours debate, my partner used to teach EFL and prep took up a considerable amount of time so she was easily doing 30 odd hours for 20 hours of teaching and there was relatively little admin or homework to worry about on top. So I could easily see a lot of teachers hitting 50+ hours a week.
One thing in Gove's favour, I believe that his kids go to state school so at least he has a stake in the system unlike so many politicians, even Labour ones. His ideas do seem antiquated though.0 -
johnfinch wrote:bdu98252 wrote:My mates have a very good life teaching so maybe all these overwork teachers need to look at their current situation and either quit, address their skills or find a organisation that does not take the wee wee out of them if in fact this is the actual reason they are working ridiculous hours.
1) Maybe your mates aren't as professional as the overworked teachers. Or maybe they're younger and haven't been ground down yet.
2) As I have said before, that's the big problem in the education system. Teachers are leaving in droves. Besides saying "stop whining", what would you do about this?
I would stop paying management in schools premium rates so there is little drive for good teachers to become management. I would make testing at most 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th year in the scottish system. Lastly I would monitor staff hours both in and out of school and question why anyone would need to work over 40 hours per week on average. I would also look at weighting league tables to reflect socio economic background of the kids attending the school.0 -
bdu98252 wrote:I would stop paying management in schools premium rates so there is little drive for good teachers to become management. I would make testing at most 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th year in the scottish system.
OK, those are sensible ideas.bdu98252 wrote:Lastly I would monitor staff hours both in and out of school and question why anyone would need to work over 40 hours per week on average.
I'm sure that any teacher could tell you that already. I've taught English as a foreign language. Far less bureaucratic than teaching in a British state school, smaller classes, less accountability, fewer observed lessons etc. Even then, for a 22 hour teaching week, to do the job to a decent standard, you'd need to be putting in at a very minimum 40 hours per week with the lesson planning, marking, no school reports, no school trips etc. The difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher is mainly down to the amount of work they're prepared to put in.bdu98252 wrote:I would also look at weighting league tables to reflect socio economic background of the kids attending the school.
Sensible idea, but you're a bit late on that one - it's already done under the label "value added".0 -
Jess Green appears to be a poet and not actually a teacher, although she runs workshops in schools, colleges and prisons.
I assume this video was uploaded in support of the recent teachers’ strike, and is from a teacher’s point of view.
She complains of burning with rage at “scabs” that cross the picket line.
She mentions pupils not even taking their coats off for the last period of the day, although the kids know that they have “ballsed” up their education, but don’t care. This apparently is due to governments 3 generations ago who destroyed jobs and people’s sense of worth.
She complains that kids are not interested in the subject and teachers don’t feel enthusiastic about teaching it.
She recognises that people enter the profession on a whim as an easy option, so admits that not every teacher is as dedicated as you would be led to believe.
Pupils don’t always have English as their first language and she complains that some less gifted miss other lessons because of Maths/English intervention, whereby kids are given extra tuition. (Surely it is desirable to raise basic literacy levels) Another gripe is the lack of opportunity to edit coursework to a satisfactory level. Personally I think there is far too emphasis on coursework, rather than a rigorous examination.
She even goes on to state what hard work it is to engage with “average” students, before ending with a complaint about work, payscale advancement and pensions.
She may have legitimate points re the pay/hours etc, but some of the rest of her piece, if correct, are not particularly flattering to the teaching profession. Some of it is just leftiebollox0 -
My wife is a teacher and it has been sad watching her love of her vocation be stripped piece by piece from her in recent years. It is NOT a job for my wife - it is far more than that. If the vocational teachers are struggling - you know the ones who devote their life to it - can you imagine the impact the current state of affairs has on the "also ran" teachers. Trust me they are stepping back and just rolling with it and our children's education suffers as a result.
There is a shortage of teachers in some subjects but my wife knows there is a shortage of GOOD teachers in all subjects.
Oh well, it's not like the future of our nation depends on the education of our children or anything...........ooh look X Factor is on........You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
I understand your position. My politics are left of centre but I am very uncomfortable with the socialist politics of the 70's and 80's.Ballysmate wrote:Jess Green appears to be a poet and not actually a teacher, although she runs workshops in schools, colleges and prisons.
I assume this video was uploaded in support of the recent teachers’ strike, and is from a teacher’s point of view.
She complains of burning with rage at “scabs” that cross the picket line.
She mentions pupils not even taking their coats off for the last period of the day, although the kids know that they have “ballsed” up their education, but don’t care. This apparently is due to governments 3 generations ago who destroyed jobs and people’s sense of worth.
She complains that kids are not interested in the subject and teachers don’t feel enthusiastic about teaching it.
She recognises that people enter the profession on a whim as an easy option, so admits that not every teacher is as dedicated as you would be led to believe.
Pupils don’t always have English as their first language and she complains that some less gifted miss other lessons because of Maths/English intervention, whereby kids are given extra tuition. (Surely it is desirable to raise basic literacy levels) Another gripe is the lack of opportunity to edit coursework to a satisfactory level. Personally I think there is far too emphasis on coursework, rather than a rigorous examination.
She even goes on to state what hard work it is to engage with “average” students, before ending with a complaint about work, payscale advancement and pensions.
She may have legitimate points re the pay/hours etc, but some of the rest of her piece, if correct, are not particularly flattering to the teaching profession. Some of it is just leftiebollox
However, sticking to teaching and educating and the specific point about extra literacy and numeracy for strugglers. A lot of kids aren't struggling purely through capability. This is what neither you, Gove (particularly) or the Labour government before can get their heads around. A large number of kids are totally disengaged from the classroom lessons by rote methodology. In what world could the solution to this problem ever be more classroom lessons?0 -
Have a look at these stats on teachers' working hours, compiled by the Department for Education (so NOT a union):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-270879420 -
The Little Onion wrote:Have a look at these stats on teachers' working hours, compiled by the Department for Education (so NOT a union):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27087942
Thanks for posting. Stats to back up everything I was arguing. Looks like some people will have to eat their words up thread. Will send this link to my sister.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Thanks for posting. Stats to back up everything I was arguing.
Only if you're naive enough to think that.
Ask me about stats and i'll tell you how crime is falling and everyone is happy. Then ask me what the truth is.
:shock:0 -
Colinthecop wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Thanks for posting. Stats to back up everything I was arguing.
Only if you're naive enough to think that.
Ask me about stats and i'll tell you how crime is falling and everyone is happy. Then ask me what the truth is.
:shock:
I can tell you it's true. The detail that teachers have to put into marking and writing reports these days is unbelievable compared to the three or four lines I used to get once a year.
NB: This only applies to some schools. Most of the schools in my town have stopped setting homework as they basically can't trust the pupils to bring the books back anymore, so setting homework has become counterproductive.0 -
Colinthecop wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Thanks for posting. Stats to back up everything I was arguing.
Only if you're naive enough to think that.
Ask me about stats and i'll tell you how crime is falling and everyone is happy. Then ask me what the truth is.
:shock:
You could of course be a perennial naysayer. Pretty worthless imo.
Of course stats can be melded etc but in this case its a pretty robust survey.Contador is the Greatest0 -
It is a DfE survey so I think the data would have been collected properly and there is no reason to think the results would have been falsified for political purpose since it is probably painful reading for the government.Colinthecop wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Thanks for posting. Stats to back up everything I was arguing.
Only if you're naive enough to think that.
Ask me about stats and i'll tell you how crime is falling and everyone is happy. Then ask me what the truth is.
:shock:
Oh and crime is falling and has been falling for the last 20 years. It is a fact even though it appears to be diverging from your experience on the street level. Whilst there is no doubt some massaging of the statistics there has been a fall in crime in most parts of the country.0 -
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Listening to the lady from the national union for teachers this morning on TV she seems to be proposing that teachers need to earn more money for the additional work they are doing. I find it pretty staggering that teachers are being asked to work these hours or need to work these hours. If 19 hours of teaching time equals a 60 hour week then surely the NUT should be asking what the fuck the teachers are doing for the other 40 hours.
I would not be supporting a union that seems to think that working excessive hours is OK as long as I can get a raise. Talk about pricing all the people out of the jobs market who want to work a reasonable week so that they can spend some time with their own kids.
Have teachers lost the trust of society so much that teachers need to spend 20 hours a week justifying why their teaching is acceptable?0 -
Drinking coffee and reading the Guardian, of course. It's not like you need to prepare lessons or mark work or read interminable pages of waffly documents or attend pointless meetings or cover for absent teachers or supervise lunch and break times or lead voluntary extra-curricular activities or carry out whole school duties or anything like that :roll:bdu98252 wrote:If 19 hours of teaching time equals a 60 hour week then surely the NUT should be asking what the fark the teachers are doing for the other 40 hours.0 -
bompington wrote:
Drinking coffee and reading the Guardian, of course. It's not like you need to prepare lessons or mark work or read interminable pages of waffly documents or attend pointless meetings or cover for absent teachers or supervise lunch and break times or lead voluntary extra-curricular activities or carry out whole school duties or anything like that :roll:bdu98252 wrote:If 19 hours of teaching time equals a 60 hour week then surely the NUT should be asking what the fark the teachers are doing for the other 40 hours.
Teaching 19 hours
Cover sick teachers 2 hours (Assuming generous 10% absence rate)
Supervising breaks 5 hours (Assuming you are either all in the playground or you class your lunch as working time)
Voluntary extra curricular activities 0 hours (The clue is in the name voluntary, don't do it if you don't want to)
Total = 26 hours
Prepare Lessons ? hours
Mark pupil assignments/homework ? hours
Meetings and sorting out the school bills, legislation etc. ? hours (Given the head teacher only teaches 2.8 hours a week according to your stats should they not be doing this or overseeing admin doing this)
Please teachers tell me how when you are given a curriculum and know what is likely to be in the exams preparing lessons and marking work takes longer than 14 hours per week. If you want to attend bollocks meetings or sort out school admin then fair play but consider changing the system if you are not happy. I am sure that an admin worker at £10ph could pay the electric bill and order some stationary without you spending your time doing it.0 -
So, it was Easter break for teacher (2weeks). During this 'holiday', my sister had to mark 150 assessments, write reports, prep gcse folders for exam boards, prepare lessons, prepare seating plans, read a couple of anthologies, a book or two, plan a couple of school trips, prepare gcse exam revision and various other things I cant remember.
If you are struggling to understand how they can work those 60 hrs then take one element - marking. Calculate @10/15mins a piece of work x 75 for example, per week.Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:So, it was Easter break for teacher (2weeks). During this 'holiday', my sister had to mark 150 assessments, write reports, prep gcse folders for exam boards, prepare lessons, prepare seating plans, read a couple of anthologies, a book or two, plan a couple of school trips, prepare gcse exam revision and various other things I cant remember.
If you are struggling to understand how they can work those 60 hrs then take one element - marking. Calculate @10/15mins a piece of work x 75 for example, per week.
Right she is working hard. Probably too hard if EU working directives are anything to go by. Why are the NUT going for more money instead of redressing the work life balance? Surely the feedback from their members is that they don't want to work over 40 hours every week. Or are teachers telling the NUT that they should work themselves into oblivion if only they can get a good pay rise.0 -
bdu98252 wrote:Right she is working hard. Probably too hard if EU working directives are anything to go by. Why are the NUT going for more money instead of redressing the work life balance? Surely the feedback from their members is that they don't want to work over 40 hours every week. Or are teachers telling the NUT that they should work themselves into oblivion if only they can get a good pay rise.
They ARE demanding a lower workload.0 -
bdu98252 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:So, it was Easter break for teacher (2weeks). During this 'holiday', my sister had to mark 150 assessments, write reports, prep gcse folders for exam boards, prepare lessons, prepare seating plans, read a couple of anthologies, a book or two, plan a couple of school trips, prepare gcse exam revision and various other things I cant remember.
If you are struggling to understand how they can work those 60 hrs then take one element - marking. Calculate @10/15mins a piece of work x 75 for example, per week.
Right she is working hard. Probably too hard if EU working directives are anything to go by. Why are the NUT going for more money instead of redressing the work life balance? Surely the feedback from their members is that they don't want to work over 40 hours every week. Or are teachers telling the NUT that they should work themselves into oblivion if only they can get a good pay rise.
They deserve more money and less workload. The government do not care though and the NUT are not too powerful.Contador is the Greatest0 -
New teachers union to be formed?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ction.html
A commenter draws our attention to the following photo. Do you think this little girl is expressing her own political views or is she being indoctrinated?
Regardless of left/right, political indoctrination in schools is wrong.
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