Dear Mr Gove by Jess Green

frenchfighter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ8RA3QF0EU

Very well worth a watch. If you personally know anyone who is a teacher you will likely sympathise and understand how tough the job of secondary school teachers is.

Pross

Not often we see you escape from Pro Race Frenchie!

Yellow Peril

interesting watch. Some thoughtful observations.

mudsucker

She can't be that busy if she has time for that! I know a lot of teacher and to be honest I get bored of their moaning.

All these teachers chose this career and I'm sure they were told in there training what it will be like. If you don't like it, leave. Or is the problem you can't as no other employer would touch you with a barge pole.

finchy

mudsucker wrote:

If you don't like it, leave. Or is the problem you can't as no other employer would touch you with a barge pole.

No, the problem is that a lot of them DO leave. That's why there's such a massive shortage of maths, physics, chemistry and language teachers in this country.

The Little Onion

one in three teachers will permanently quit the profession within five years of qualifying. What other industries requiring post-graduate qualifications would tolerate such a rate of attrition?

rick_chasey

The Little Onion wrote:

one in three teachers will permanently quit the profession within five years of qualifying. What other industries requiring post-graduate qualifications would tolerate such a rate of attrition?

I've met a lot of qualified lawyers who aren't practicing law.

And Architects.

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

The Little Onion wrote:

one in three teachers will permanently quit the profession within five years of qualifying. What other industries requiring post-graduate qualifications would tolerate such a rate of attrition?

I've met a lot of qualified lawyers who aren't practicing law.

And Architects.

It can't be as high as teaching though. The drop-out rates that I have seen are even higher than those mentioned by Onion - 40% rising to 50% when the country's not in a recession.

bdu98252

I work as an engineer and often have to solve others problems and do a load of stuff that does not interest me. Should I apply for the nations sympathy. Or should I apply on behalf of the cleaning lady who I pass every morning at 8am when she is going home having started at 3 in the morning to clean up after other people and wipe poo off toilets. I think she is a far more deserving candidate than teachers given her low wage and general up beat attitude. Could make a good teacher with all that positive attitude.

Here's my personal take on this. Went to Uni. Out of my social group 7 went on to be teachers. Only 1 of these wanted to be a teacher before they got a poor degree and decided the job market was too tough. This may go a long way to explain the high drop out rate. I wanted to be an engineer so do not run around complaining when the pay is not as much as a banker and my holidays are restricted to 25 days a year.

finchy

bdu98252 wrote:

I work as an engineer and often have to solve others problems and do a load of stuff that does not interest me. Should I apply for the nations sympathy. Or should I apply on behalf of the cleaning lady who I pass every morning at 8am when she is going home having started at 3 in the morning to clean up after other people and wipe poo off toilets. I think she is a far more deserving candidate than teachers given her low wage and general up beat attitude. Could make a good teacher with all that positive attitude.

Here's my personal take on this. Went to Uni. Out of my social group 7 went on to be teachers. Only 1 of these wanted to be a teacher before they got a poor degree and decided the job market was too tough. This may go a long way to explain the high drop out rate. I wanted to be an engineer so do not run around complaining when the pay is not as much as a banker and my holidays are restricted to 25 days a year.

So your answer to the recruitment and retention crisis in one of our nation's most important professions is that they should stop moaning? Well there we go then, problem solved. :roll: :roll: :roll:

ballysmate

johnfinch wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

I work as an engineer and often have to solve others problems and do a load of stuff that does not interest me. Should I apply for the nations sympathy. Or should I apply on behalf of the cleaning lady who I pass every morning at 8am when she is going home having started at 3 in the morning to clean up after other people and wipe poo off toilets. I think she is a far more deserving candidate than teachers given her low wage and general up beat attitude. Could make a good teacher with all that positive attitude.

Here's my personal take on this. Went to Uni. Out of my social group 7 went on to be teachers. Only 1 of these wanted to be a teacher before they got a poor degree and decided the job market was too tough. This may go a long way to explain the high drop out rate. I wanted to be an engineer so do not run around complaining when the pay is not as much as a banker and my holidays are restricted to 25 days a year.

So your answer to the recruitment and retention crisis in one of our nation's most important professions is that they should stop moaning? Well there we go then, problem solved. :roll: :roll: :roll:

No, I think he was saying that people wander into the teaching profession, as they see it as an easier option, rather than join the profession because that is what they always wanted to do.

finchy

Ballysmate wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

I work as an engineer and often have to solve others problems and do a load of stuff that does not interest me. Should I apply for the nations sympathy. Or should I apply on behalf of the cleaning lady who I pass every morning at 8am when she is going home having started at 3 in the morning to clean up after other people and wipe poo off toilets. I think she is a far more deserving candidate than teachers given her low wage and general up beat attitude. Could make a good teacher with all that positive attitude.

Here's my personal take on this. Went to Uni. Out of my social group 7 went on to be teachers. Only 1 of these wanted to be a teacher before they got a poor degree and decided the job market was too tough. This may go a long way to explain the high drop out rate. I wanted to be an engineer so do not run around complaining when the pay is not as much as a banker and my holidays are restricted to 25 days a year.

So your answer to the recruitment and retention crisis in one of our nation's most important professions is that they should stop moaning? Well there we go then, problem solved. :roll: :roll: :roll:

No, I think he was saying that people wander into the teaching profession, as they see it as an easier option, rather than join the profession because that is what they always wanted to do.

Read it again.

If anyone just joins teaching because they see it as an easy option, then something needs to be done to make teaching a more desirable profession to join.

bdu98252

If the answer to me getting bankers money and teachers holidays is to have a whinge about it on Youtube then I will get writing the script tonight. Whilst I am of the view that teachers and schools in general have their heads up their own bum about rules, procedures and standardisation. I am not of the view that teachers are the down trodden martyrs that they claim to be.

If there is an argument to be had it is probably around why are you not giving general teachers a raise whilst reducing head teachers salaries to a ratio of as a maximum 1.3 times the teachers salary. They can't all be head teachers or none of the kids would have a teacher.

bdu98252

johnfinch wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

I work as an engineer and often have to solve others problems and do a load of stuff that does not interest me. Should I apply for the nations sympathy. Or should I apply on behalf of the cleaning lady who I pass every morning at 8am when she is going home having started at 3 in the morning to clean up after other people and wipe poo off toilets. I think she is a far more deserving candidate than teachers given her low wage and general up beat attitude. Could make a good teacher with all that positive attitude.

Here's my personal take on this. Went to Uni. Out of my social group 7 went on to be teachers. Only 1 of these wanted to be a teacher before they got a poor degree and decided the job market was too tough. This may go a long way to explain the high drop out rate. I wanted to be an engineer so do not run around complaining when the pay is not as much as a banker and my holidays are restricted to 25 days a year.

So your answer to the recruitment and retention crisis in one of our nation's most important professions is that they should stop moaning? Well there we go then, problem solved. :roll: :roll: :roll:

No, I think he was saying that people wander into the teaching profession, as they see it as an easier option, rather than join the profession because that is what they always wanted to do.

Read it again.

If anyone just joins teaching because they see it as an easy option, then something needs to be done to make teaching a more desirable profession to join.

Labour already did it with rises in pay.

morstar

It's easy to characterise all teachers as moaning and idle but lets just leave lazy stereotypes behind shall we.

This isn't just about working hours and pensions. If you listen to the poem by Jess, it's also about education. I know this doesn't fit with lazy stereotypes that have been an active policy to discredit whichever group is being attacked but...

Many teachers actually give a damn about education and enter the profession for good reasons. Even many of those who do fall into the profession, can still go about it passionately and with dedication. I didn't choose my profession but I'm sure as hell making the most of it and securing some level of success for my efforts.

Gove is an idealist fanatic who can only perceive of one possible route to a successful education. Both parties have been myopic over education being solely academic based and have left an underclass of non-academic students facing nothing but failure (for very different reasons). Rather than reversing this terrible trend that contributes to a social underclass, Goves response... make education even more academic because we've got to keep up with the Far East.

It's idiotic thinking in the extreme. Same way longer pub hours didn't evolve into the cafe style culture we were promised. It is the teachers who have to pick up the pieces and baby sit disengaged pupils through more lessons by rote with limited avenue to actually educate and inspire. If you haven't actually watched the video, that is a significant part of what Jess is driving at.

And no, I'm not a teacher and I only have one friend who is.

finchy

bdu98252 wrote:

If the answer to me getting bankers money and teachers holidays is to have a whinge about it on Youtube then I will get writing the script tonight.

Will you be asking to be given teacher's working hours while you're writing the script?

bdu98252 wrote:

Whilst I am of the view that teachers and schools in general have their heads up their own bum about rules, procedures and standardisation.

Teachers are employees. They have to enforce the rules set by their employers

bdu98252 wrote:

I am not of the view that teachers are the down trodden martyrs that they claim to be

Yet not enough people want to be teachers. Why is that?

bdu98252 wrote:

If there is an argument to be had it is probably around why are you not giving general teachers a raise whilst reducing head teachers salaries to a ratio of as a maximum 1.3 times the teachers salary. They can't all be head teachers or none of the kids would have a teacher.

bdu98252 wrote:

Labour already did it with rises in pay.

It's not just about money, it's about workload, respect, etc. Coming from a teaching family, and having taught abroad myself, there is absolutely no way you would get me to be a classroom teacher in the UK. Never. You'd have to be either desperate or out of your mind to do that job.

finchy

morstar wrote:

It's easy to characterise all teachers as moaning and idle but lets just leave lazy stereotypes behind shall we.

This isn't just about working hours and pensions. If you listen to the poem by Jess, it's also about education. I know this doesn't fit with lazy stereotypes that have been an active policy to discredit whichever group is being attacked but...

Many teachers actually give a damn about education and enter the profession for good reasons. Even many of those who do fall into the profession, can still go about it passionately and with dedication. I didn't choose my profession but I'm sure as hell making the most of it and securing some level of success for my efforts.

Gove is an idealist fanatic who can only perceive of one possible route to a successful education. Both parties have been myopic over education being solely academic based and have left an underclass of non-academic students facing nothing but failure (for very different reasons). Rather than reversing this terrible trend that contributes to a social underclass, Goves response... make education even more academic because we've got to keep up with the Far East.

It's idiotic thinking in the extreme. Same way longer pub hours didn't evolve into the cafe style culture we were promised. It is the teachers who have to pick up the pieces and baby sit disengaged pupils through more lessons by rote with limited avenue to actually educate and inspire. If you haven't actually watched the video, that is a significant part of what Jess is driving at.

And no, I'm not a teacher and I only have one friend who is.

+1 to all of this.

bdu98252

johnfinch wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

If the answer to me getting bankers money and teachers holidays is to have a whinge about it on Youtube then I will get writing the script tonight.

Will you be asking to be given teacher's working hours while you're writing the script?

bdu98252 wrote:

Whilst I am of the view that teachers and schools in general have their heads up their own bum about rules, procedures and standardisation.

Teachers are employees. They have to enforce the rules set by their employers

bdu98252 wrote:

I am not of the view that teachers are the down trodden martyrs that they claim to be

Yet not enough people want to be teachers. Why is that?

bdu98252 wrote:

If there is an argument to be had it is probably around why are you not giving general teachers a raise whilst reducing head teachers salaries to a ratio of as a maximum 1.3 times the teachers salary. They can't all be head teachers or none of the kids would have a teacher.

bdu98252 wrote:

Labour already did it with rises in pay.

It's not just about money, it's about workload, respect, etc. Coming from a teaching family, and having taught abroad myself, there is absolutely no way you would get me to be a classroom teacher in the UK. Never. You'd have to be either desperate or out of your mind to do that job.

I would be asking for 40 hours in the contract:) Where are the figures for a lack of teachers. From my experience there are multiple applicants for the same job meaning the market in candidates is quite buoyant. Surprising really give that it is such an under paid overworked profession.

I do actually agree that micro management from the top is not really that productive in terms of raising standards. Nor is trying to get 50% of the population to university and belittling those who have other valuable skills to bring to the market place. A good brickie is a good brickie.

finchy

bdu98252 wrote:

I would be asking for 40 hours in the contract:) Where are the figures for a lack of teachers. From my experience there are multiple applicants for the same job meaning the market in candidates is quite buoyant. Surprising really give that it is such an under paid overworked profession.

Here you go.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... evels.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... hools.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/ne ... 58266.html

The DfE are offering financial incentives for certain subjects. Now why could that be?

http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-te ... lang=en-GB

And that's just the problems with getting people into teaching in the first place. Getting them to stay in teaching is another issue.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... opping-out
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 71871.html

Pross

I'm not sure the lack of teachers in certain subjects (maths, physics etc.) is due to the job being so tough. If that were the case surely it would be just as difficult to recruit teachers to other subjects or are we saying that for some reason it's tougher being a teacher in some subjects than others? I should think the shortage in those disciplines comes down to a) lack of interest in the subjects for pupils creating a shortage in those doing degrees in them b) those who do subjects such as physics are more interested in jobs where they get to use their knowledge to create e.g. become engineers or scientists. The big problem with a) is that if schools are recruiting whoever they can get rather than a teacher that will inspire students you end up with a downward spiral.

From my sister's experience when she qualified as a teacher I know that there is a lot of competition for not many jobs in a lot of areas. My sister opted to move to London to teach but her friends who didn't want to move to a big city tended to have to work supply for several years before securing a full time position.

The whole hours of work issue teachers raise frustrates me at times though. I know they don't just turn up from 8.30 to 3.30 every day and that they work some of the 13 weeks or so that schools have off each year but the way they talk you would think no other profession has people who work over and above their contracted hours. Like it or not it's just a fact of modern life. I can't remember the last time I or any of my colleagues worked a 37.5 hour week. Like many things in life the people who are best at their jobs tend to just get on with it whilst those who perhaps took a job hoping for an easy life are often the most vocal.

finchy

Pross wrote:

I'm not sure the lack of teachers in certain subjects (maths, physics etc.) is due to the job being so tough. If that were the case surely it would be just as difficult to recruit teachers to other subjects or are we saying that for some reason it's tougher being a teacher in some subjects than others? I should think the shortage in those disciplines comes down to a) lack of interest in the subjects for pupils creating a shortage in those doing degrees in them b) those who do subjects such as physics are more interested in jobs where they get to use their knowledge to create e.g. become engineers or scientists. The big problem with a) is that if schools are recruiting whoever they can get rather than a teacher that will inspire students you end up with a downward spiral.

It's more difficult to recruit in the subjects mentioned because if you're qualified in a numerate subject, language etc., where there are shortages elsewhere in the country, why the hell would you want to be a teacher?

Pross wrote:

The whole hours of work issue teachers raise frustrates me at times though. I know they don't just turn up from 8.30 to 3.30 every day and that they work some of the 13 weeks or so that schools have off each year but the way they talk you would think no other profession has people who work over and above their contracted hours. Like it or not it's just a fact of modern life. I can't remember the last time I or any of my colleagues worked a 37.5 hour week. Like many things in life the people who are best at their jobs tend to just get on with it whilst those who perhaps took a job hoping for an easy life are often the most vocal.

The problem with teaching is that to be a good teacher these days means doing 60-70 hours every single week. My step-dad was a very conscientious teacher (who complains about some of his lazier colleagues) and until his recent retirement he came home, had something to eat and then went upstairs and prepared lessons and marked books until it was bedtime (usually at midnight).

trekker12

morstar wrote:

It's easy to characterise all teachers as moaning and idle but lets just leave lazy stereotypes behind shall we.

This isn't just about working hours and pensions. If you listen to the poem by Jess, it's also about education. I know this doesn't fit with lazy stereotypes that have been an active policy to discredit whichever group is being attacked but...

Many teachers actually give a damn about education and enter the profession for good reasons. Even many of those who do fall into the profession, can still go about it passionately and with dedication. I didn't choose my profession but I'm sure as hell making the most of it and securing some level of success for my efforts.

Gove is an idealist fanatic who can only perceive of one possible route to a successful education. Both parties have been myopic over education being solely academic based and have left an underclass of non-academic students facing nothing but failure (for very different reasons). Rather than reversing this terrible trend that contributes to a social underclass, Goves response... make education even more academic because we've got to keep up with the Far East.

It's idiotic thinking in the extreme. Same way longer pub hours didn't evolve into the cafe style culture we were promised. It is the teachers who have to pick up the pieces and baby sit disengaged pupils through more lessons by rote with limited avenue to actually educate and inspire. If you haven't actually watched the video, that is a significant part of what Jess is driving at.

And no, I'm not a teacher and I only have one friend who is.

+1

I married a teacher and that's possibly the best description, closest to my wife's experience I've heard. She used to be a department head (Maths) and one of the most dedicated teachers I've met (but I might be biased). With a succession of government ideas moving goalposts and now Gove coming up with a new idea every day she's had enough.

The first step was to take a new post demoting herself to being a normal teacher which has already done wonders for her well being and outlook on life but if Gove and or his replacement keep going the way they are the we'll have to consider a new option. After 15 years in a career she used to love (and chose form the beginning) that's a difficult step to make.

mamba80

as all of us have been through an education system, I doubt anyone takes teaching in a state secondary school as an "easy life" option...do they???
My sister is a H of D special needs in Bristol and it is soul destroying work, evenings w/e's, marking reports chasing targets the work is endless, she is v. passionate about her profession but she will accept that there are teachers who should nt be in the role, they just cant cut it.
Goves reforms like all the other ministers before him, will never work, ultimately schools can only do so much, parents need to take responsibility and stop blaming schools for their own failings and no Government can easily raise parenting standards...so pick on the next best thing !

finchy

mamba80 wrote:

I doubt anyone takes teaching in a state secondary school as an "easy life" option...do they?

Yes, they do.

kajjal

Teaching is a very tough job as you are forced to work 60-70 hours a week and the culture is like a dictatorship while all the time saying schools must be inclusive, politically correct etc. It is all down to the central management at the department for education, they are the most appalling unfit for purpose function I have ever seen. If you ran a company in a competitive industry they way they do it would be rapidly going out of business with a lot of employment law and health and safety law cases pending.

Teachers need to work a lot less hours and focus on their core skills of managing the classroom environment and delivering education to a wide variety of needs. That is more than enough for anyone without the thirty hours a week of pointless bureaucracy

frenchfighter

I thought there would be more ignorant responses then there are - pleased to see the vast majority are reasonable.

I thought teaching was a relatively easy career path and the holidays were great. I thought when I had made enough money to be comfortable I would go into maths teaching for an easy time. Since seeing and hearing at first hand my sister's experiences (secondary schools in London) I can safely say that my view has been informed greatly and I am totally on the side of the teachers. I believe that the majority of them work very, very hard for a poor salary, spend the majority of their time with discipline and are bogged down with unnecessary paperwork. It will be a huge improvement for teachers and quality of teaching generally when Gove and his ill-informed ilk are not at the helm of the education ship.

Without teachers you would not develop the skills people need to create the society we live in, a thriving economy and better quality of person. Education is of critical importance. Lack of education shows very clearly in someone. What would you have become if you had not had an education.

Pross I agree with your points. Those with maths and science backgrounds look (understandably) to monetise their skills elsewhere. There is always time to come back to teaching - in fact those teachers with industry experience are often very good teachers and are calmer as they have the financial security and experience which would leave them relatively secure if they were to give up on teaching. Re them over-complaining in your opinion - this may be a touch true but the fact is even when they are not working on something they are thinking about it. I work 60-65hr weeks, take no sick days, work bank holidays and hardly ever take 20 days holiday but I would not wish to change this for what teachers have to experience for little money.

Morstar I agree also. My sister is an English teacher, an excellent one at that - very inventive lesson plans and a great passion for the subject. The problem is she has no choice but to spend time on discipline and unnecessary paperwork etc. Education should be about educating people. At the moment it has not got that at its core.

I agree with the attrition rate being appalling - my sister's first school it was 75% of first year teachers left.

Bear in mind that if you are a teacher you are on your feet most of the day and do sometimes do not even have time to eat. Compare that to an office worker - sitting all day and 100% certain they are not a bloc all day long.

If you want to have a go at someone, have a go at lecturers. Don't have to work very hard and get significantly higher compensation then teachers. I have an informed view on this.

Alternatively, how about directing your ire at the councils - many (not the majority, but too many) under qualified, over paid individuals there. Cosy job. I do not have an informed view on this but would be very keen to know more...I sometimes wonder about joining the council to work my way up and clean it up.

Pross

I'm not sure it's even a money thing with those from a maths / science background. I think it's more a case that people who enjoy that type of subject generally prefer to do something a bit more 'hands on' for want of a better phrase. Sciences in particular also give people a chance to get involved in hands on research work whilst also 'teaching' at a University. Pay and conditions may well play a part but I just feel it's more that they want to use their skills directly. It was one of the reasons I chose Civil Engineering as a career over teaching Geography which I thought about for a while.

bdu98252

I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.

I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.

Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.

I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.

trekker12

I do agree with your last point bdu98252.

My wife (maths teacher) works the same hours I do (I'm an engineer too) - well hers are slightly longer we both leave home at 7:30 - my ride to work is longer so I start at 9 - she starts at 8. And I meet her half way home for a ride somewhere at 5:30. Occasionally she brings work home particularly in the build up to exams and often carries out her preparation work/lesson planning during holidays (especially half term). There are parents evenings and late training sessions (preferred by her school rather than whole days with the kids at home) but again it's not a daily thing.

We both know people who are working or claim to be working until midnight every night but Mrs Trekker12 tells me she's never worked those hours before I met her and has the view anyone working those hours is getting it wrong - perhaps she's not as dedicated as I mentioned on my previous post!!

bompington

The truth is that it is quite easy to be a lazy and incompetent teacher, even to get away with working school hours only, or pretty close to it.
But to do that (and let's be clear, some do) you have to turn up every day with a staggeringly cynical attitude, the ability to shrug off the chaos, lack of purpose and pointlessness that will inevitably envelop you, and live every day with the knowledge that your colleagues, pupils and their parents are fully aware of your game - and despise you.
Needless to say such teachers should not be anywhere near a school, but it is indeed quite hard to fill schools entirely with committed, inspiring, skilful teachers. And don't forget that for every useless and lazy teacher, there are about three more who can play the game, spout the jargon, do the paperwork, and even fool enough people to get promoted - but are really not that good at actually teaching. Which is one of the reasons why performance related pay or the ability to sack poor teachers - in principle, good ideas - would be very hard to implement fairly: it's easy to bend your effort towards the targets that get you rewarded, rather than the target that matters (educating kids).

Personally I find the hours can be tough but I would agree with the inference above that if you're working 60-70 a week something must be wrong - I would probably average about 45-50, but that's partly because I have enough experience (and resources built up over the years) to plan lessons very quickly - it's much harder for teachers in their first few years.
What I actually find the hardest thing about teaching is the unrelenting exposure - every lesson is like being on stage, there is nowhere to hide, if you do not come up with the goods then the feedback is painfully immediate and obvious. I love my job, it's what I have chosen to do because of who I am, but I have to admit there are occasional times when I think wistfully of where else a first class degree in maths and computer science could have got me...

finchy

bdu98252 wrote:

I am sorry here but I smell something in these arguments. Teachers are required to work 60 to 70 hours per week. What a load of nonsense. Can anyone do maths here. 60-70 hours a week is 8.6-10 hour days, 7 days a week or 12-14hours days, 5 days a week.

I find in engineering the people working these sort of hours have either no management structure in place to manage their time or are totally incompetent. If the 60-70 hours per weeks was really true then there would be a number of law suits from teachers against the working time directive as this working arrangement is plain illegal.

Teachers may have to work past the 0900 to 1530 school hours but lets not claim that they are working the above hours as it says more about their skill in time management than anything else. Next time you meet a teacher ask them how they are going to make up the hours to get the 70 hours in as based on the above. I certainly would not be signing off any of these timesheet claims.

I think I will start claiming that engineers have to work 70 hours a week to meet the company needs and we don't even get 13 weeks off.

Yes, I can do maths and I've seen the sort of hours that my step-dad put in (it must be noted that he was also head of department and that his pupils constantly over-achieved in whatever school he taught in).

Look, seeing as you know so much about what a cushy life it is, I'm sure that you'll be signing up for your nearest PGCE.... won't you?