Feedback on Bespoked?

mikenetic

littledove44 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

Professional organisation and behaviour is what is needed. Some exhibitors were professional, many were not. Being a small niche event does not excuse lack of professionalism. Being an artisan is no excuse for not knowing details of your own product.

No point paying for a stand if you thinking updating your twitter feed is more important than talking to the two blokes looking at your frames.

No point in being there if you don't know the weight of your frame (even roughly).

No point in exhibiting titanium frames if you cannot say in a couple of coherent sentences what the pros and cons of titanium are compared to other options.

I could go on......

Dude, these blokes who are so unprofessional are normally booked up for the next twelve months... so they must be doing something right... if you then want to go and teach them how to fill a spreadsheet or how to deal with customers in a professional way, be my guest, but that's not necessarily what the customer wants. Maybe that's what you want, but I don't see you as much of a "bespoked" character... did you not just buy a set of Mavic Ksyrium?

Oh please. Give me a break. What is this absurd fantasy about spreadsheets? Make things up if you wish, but try to be credible.

I have attended probably in excess of 200 trade shows in my life, as visitor, employee and owner operator. Standard policy for anyone who is in a customer facing role is to face the customer. I ran a customer facing service business, small, and grew it five years from a two man operation with no revenue, to a ten man operation with £15m revenue. Clearly my lack of understanding of customer service led to this inordinate failure, and my ability to retire at the age of 42 to play golf, sail and fiddle with bikes.

If you are of the view that customers do not want to be treated courteously I shall leave you with that position. If you
think that ignoring customers is a good way of selling things then I shall leave you with that position. Good luck with your own business.

As to my wheels, you are probably do not realize or remember that I once contacted you and ask about custom wheels. You recommended Mavic Ksyriums!

Anyway, before you demonstrated how little you know about what really happened on my visit, you should have asked who the other bloke was. Actually it was someone else looking for a custom bike as well, to add to the 80k's worth of bikes he already has. They didn't get his business either.

Perhaps you could single out for praise those who specifically stood out from a customer interaction perspective?

Otherwise, you're just besmirching all the exhibitors who attended.

LegendLust

littledove44 wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

Went today. Managed to park virtually outside the front door.

Varied, is how I would describe it. Not enough small bits and pieces. Some beautiful bikes, some interesting people. Too much custom steel, not enough custom carbon. Some really knowledgeable people, but many stands manned by people who thought doing stuff on their mobiles was a higher priority to talking to potential customers.

I went with the intention of selecting a custom builder. Came away pretty clear that I will buy non custom for the next bike.

Won't bother going until it gets a bit more professional.

Did you visit the stand with Legend and Tommasini? They build lots of custom carbon frames – albeit in Italy not the UK.

Yes I did, but part of the custom experience off any build is visiting the builder, watching the product grow and evolve, and tweaking things during the process. For that reason I was only considering UK based builders.

Open factory policy at Legend - you can visit Marco, and the factory, see the product, how it's made, even get fitted there. Obviously it's further away but it sounds like you have the time and can afford to fly there

littledove44

mikenetic wrote:

Perhaps you could single out for praise those who specifically stood out from a customer interaction perspective?

Otherwise, you're just besmirching all the exhibitors who attended.

Did you not read what I said. Here, this will make it easy.

"Some exhibitors were professional, many were not."

That is not besmirching everyone. It is also not singling anyone out, good or bad. I do not believe in criticising specific companies in a forum that they may not be involved.

However, no harm in publicly praising them, so if you want to know who I thought gave very good informative service, then two examples are Craddock Cycles and Loopwheels.

LegendLust

littledove44 wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Perhaps you could single out for praise those who specifically stood out from a customer interaction perspective?

Otherwise, you're just besmirching all the exhibitors who attended.

Did you not read what I said. Here, this will make it easy.

"Some exhibitors were professional, many were not."

That is not besmirching everyone. It is also not singling anyone out, good or bad. I do not believe in criticising specific companies in a forum that they may not be involved.

However, no harm in publicly praising them, so if you want to know who I thought gave very good informative service, then two examples are Craddock Cycles and Loopwheels.

So if Craddock gave good service, and they are a UK custom carbon builder, just wondering why you're going to buy a frame 'off the peg'?

ugo.santalucia

littledove44 wrote:

However, no harm in publicly praising them, so if you want to know who I thought gave very good informative service, then two examples are Craddock Cycles and Loopwheels.

I had a chat via email with the couple behind Loopwheels... yes they are very keen and the reason they are very keen is that they are not fully booked for the next 12 months... in fact their lovely invention is slow to catch up... I also had a word with Will Butler, MD of Brompton (I don't know Muhammad Ali, but I happen to know a few people) and he said the Loopwheels are not as good as he was hoping and therefore he's looking at the development, but it's unlikely they will be featured on a Brompton in the near future (they only come in 20 inches, Brompton are 16)... moral is, they were not professional, they were keen and that's because they have to sell those wheels and at the moment they are struggling. They are more into the manufacturing side than they are artisans... the obvious development is for them to oopen a factory in China, not to make bespoke Loop wheels in the UK... Capisci?

littledove44

ugo.santalucia wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

However, no harm in publicly praising them, so if you want to know who I thought gave very good informative service, then two examples are Craddock Cycles and Loopwheels.

I had a chat via email with the couple behind Loopwheels... yes they are very keen and the reason they are very keen is that they are not fully booked for the next 12 months... in fact their lovely invention is slow to catch up... I also had a word with Will Butler, MD of Brompton (I don't know Muhammad Ali, but I happen to know a few people) and he said the Loopwheels are not as good as he was hoping and therefore he's looking at the development, but it's unlikely they will be featured on a Brompton in the near future (they only come in 20 inches, Brompton are 16)... moral is, they were not professional, they were keen and that's because they have to sell those wheels and at the moment they are struggling. They are more into the manufacturing side than they are artisans... the obvious development is for them to oopen a factory in China, not to make bespoke Loop wheels in the UK... Capisci?

I was commenting on professional behaviour and customer service and nothing else. I just said they gave a very good informative service. Nothing else.

Very nice of you to say the people at Loopwheels are not professional. What are you on? Have you ever run a significant business? Or, are you just one of those people that has to have the last word even if it is missing the point? Actually, having looked at most of the threads you "contribute" to, that seems to be your style.

Feel free to have the last word on this discourse, you know you want to. I really don't care.

It's just unfortunate for me that as a moderator you are exempt from the automatic blocking from viewing which is the normal course of action to take when constantly confronted with people who may be wrong, but not confused.

ugo.santalucia

Never said they are not professional, what I mean is that you confuse keen with professional... but it seems to me you have been attacked too much on this forum (and for very good reasons given the snobbish attitude) and you have become defensive, so no point in continuing a discussion you are not prepared to have.

littledove44

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Never said they are not professional, what I mean is that you confuse keen with professional... but it seems to me you have been attacked too much on this forum (and for very good reasons given the snobbish attitude) and you have become defensive, so no point in continuing a discussion you are not prepared to have.

Last word again by you.
Case proven.

ugo.santalucia

littledove44 wrote:

Last word again by you.
Case proven.

... and you win the prize, happy now?
Not sure why you want to leave a discussion you started by coming out with something completely controversial, but feel free... I think everyone has been very polite with you on this thread, so you could even respond if you think you have a point.
MIne and others' is that you seem to confuse "professional" with "corporate".

LegendLust

LegendLust wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Perhaps you could single out for praise those who specifically stood out from a customer interaction perspective?

Otherwise, you're just besmirching all the exhibitors who attended.

Did you not read what I said. Here, this will make it easy.

"Some exhibitors were professional, many were not."

That is not besmirching everyone. It is also not singling anyone out, good or bad. I do not believe in criticising specific companies in a forum that they may not be involved.

However, no harm in publicly praising them, so if you want to know who I thought gave very good informative service, then two examples are Craddock Cycles and Loopwheels.

So if Craddock gave good service, and they are a UK custom carbon builder, just wondering why you're going to buy a frame 'off the peg'?

I'll re-ask my question? Genuinely interested as to why you'e not going down the 'custom' route, when Craddock seem to meet your criteria

1. UK based
2. Build custom carbon
3. Were 'professional' and informative

mr_evil

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Hmm. The thing is doesn't everyone want a stiff, racey, yet comfortable bike? I ask because I read about the option of having a custom made "unique" bike tailored to an individual riders needs/wants, but I find it difficult to understand what that means outside of size / custom paint jobs / wheelset / groupset selection. Having the frame perfectly sized - great. But given the effect of sizing of stem / seatpost / cranks / bars, a few mm of difference in tube lengths is neither here nor there, no? I'd like a nice titanium frame, but surely there's no benefit from having a titanium frame custom made over and above purchasing a "standard" size frame?

There's much more about a frame that can be customized. For instance, I just had a road frame made with a 142x12mm rear thru-axle. You can't buy those off-the-shelf.

MrSweary

Went on Sunday with the wife. I thought the show was great. Plenty of space to move around. Plenty to buy if so inclined. Well organised.

Chatted to quite a few builders and their passion really came through. I don't know if anyone remembers the Sparrow stand but the etched track frame was just beautiful.

After the awful London bike show this was a very pleasant surprise.

I'm now saving for a custom frame!

ugo.santalucia

MrSweary wrote:

Went on Sunday with the wife. I thought the show was great. Plenty of space to move around. Plenty to buy if so inclined. Well organised.

Chatted to quite a few builders and their passion really came through. I don't know if anyone remembers the Sparrow stand but the etched track frame was just beautiful.

After the awful London bike show this was a very pleasant surprise.

I'm now saving for a custom frame!

kingstonian

Littledove44 - it is a shame you left the show unsatisfied. I had just the opposite experience last year - had great conversations with many builders including Ricky Feather, Saffron Frameworks, Rourke and then Tom Donhou who I mentioned earlier. I found the whole experience in Bristol to be great, and it ultimately tipped the balance to me buying a custom bike. I really want my bike built from someone I know and not one of the big corporations - very much a personal choice, and I can understand why that doesn't register on many people's list of desires (I live next to Richmond Park and the number of Specialized bikes I see every day is testament to that.....).

I didn't enjoy the show this year anywhere near as much - but that's purely because I had my two sons (7 and 5 yrs old) in tow and they wanted to do nothing but watch riders hare round the velodrome in the hope there would be a crash!!!

littledove44

ugo.santalucia wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

Last word again by you.
Case proven.

... and you win the prize, happy now?
Not sure why you want to leave a discussion you started by coming out with something completely controversial, but feel free... I think everyone has been very polite with you on this thread, so you could even respond if you think you have a point.
MIne and others' is that you seem to confuse "professional" with "corporate".

Actually, just yours. Have you considered therapy for your fantasies.

littledove44

LegendLust wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

mikenetic wrote:

Perhaps you could single out for praise those who specifically stood out from a customer interaction perspective?

Otherwise, you're just besmirching all the exhibitors who attended.

Did you not read what I said. Here, this will make it easy.

"Some exhibitors were professional, many were not."

That is not besmirching everyone. It is also not singling anyone out, good or bad. I do not believe in criticising specific companies in a forum that they may not be involved.

However, no harm in publicly praising them, so if you want to know who I thought gave very good informative service, then two examples are Craddock Cycles and Loopwheels.

So if Craddock gave good service, and they are a UK custom carbon builder, just wondering why you're going to buy a frame 'off the peg'?

I'll re-ask my question? Genuinely interested as to why you'e not going down the 'custom' route, when Craddock seem to meet your criteria

1. UK based
2. Build custom carbon
3. Were 'professional' and informative

It's a good question, and deserves a fair answer. I really liked the guy, and he knew his stuff.

I am going to be careful with my answer as I know that potentially someone will forward it to the company.

Whilst his dedication, craftsmanship and competence are not in question, I was not convinced that his breadth of experience was sufficient to convince me that he was the right person to build something truly exciting for me. That may well have been my inability to understand his pitch, or on the other hand if may have been his inability to understand my needs. I am in no way trying to aportion blame,but if I am going to pay several thousand pounds for a frame (about the same as I would from a top line manufacturer with warranty, liabilty insurance, track record etc.) I do not want any significant negative feelings, and I had a few.

I do understand the benefits of a custom build, but bottom line is that the customised geometry is only part of the equation.

If he had been closer to home perhaps it would have been different. If he had a few more builds under his belt that he could show or demonstrate on his website then perhaps it would have been different. I really hope his business flourishes. I may well be a customer one day, paying a lot more, but Do not believe in being an early adopter unless you have inside information in a sector.

littledove44

Kingstonian wrote:

Littledove44 - it is a shame you left the show unsatisfied. I had just the opposite experience last year - had great conversations with many builders including Ricky Feather, Saffron Frameworks, Rourke and then Tom Donhou who I mentioned earlier. I found the whole experience in Bristol to be great, and it ultimately tipped the balance to me buying a custom bike. I really want my bike built from someone I know and not one of the big corporations - very much a personal choice, and I can understand why that doesn't register on many people's list of desires (I live next to Richmond Park and the number of Specialized bikes I see every day is testament to that.....).

I didn't enjoy the show this year anywhere near as much - but that's purely because I had my two sons (7 and 5 yrs old) in tow and they wanted to do nothing but watch riders hare round the velodrome in the hope there would be a crash!!!

Perhaps we should have swapped attendance times. I saw two crashes. Both looked quite tame, the big one being a guy whose chain parted just as he put the power down going into the bend. He seemed fine, no contact with other riders. I changed my mind shortly after the event. I was in the shop outside when he came in for some bike repairs. Blood everywhere, torn Lycra etc. who said that velodromes were smooth.?

ugo.santalucia

littledove44 wrote:

Whilst his dedication, craftsmanship and competence are not in question, I was not convinced that his breadth of experience was sufficient to convince me that he was the right person to build something truly exciting for me. That may well have been my inability to understand his pitch, or on the other hand if may have been his inability to understand my needs. I am in no way trying to aportion blame,but if I am going to pay several thousand pounds for a frame (about the same as I would from a top line manufacturer with warranty, liabilty insurance, track record etc.) I do not want any significant negative feelings, and I had a few.

Custom carbon... made in Germany by Mauro Sannino, he built my frame 34 years ago which I still use and he's been building custom frames for over 40 years, over the last ten custom carbon for Corratec. If you are looking for an experienced builder, look no further... he was building frames for the Olympic track team when it was still called USSR... Germany is less than 2 hours away with your friend's Gulfstream...

http://www.corratec.com/en/technologies/mauro-sannino

Slo Mo Jones

Mr Evil wrote:

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Hmm. The thing is doesn't everyone want a stiff, racey, yet comfortable bike? I ask because I read about the option of having a custom made "unique" bike tailored to an individual riders needs/wants, but I find it difficult to understand what that means outside of size / custom paint jobs / wheelset / groupset selection. Having the frame perfectly sized - great. But given the effect of sizing of stem / seatpost / cranks / bars, a few mm of difference in tube lengths is neither here nor there, no? I'd like a nice titanium frame, but surely there's no benefit from having a titanium frame custom made over and above purchasing a "standard" size frame?

There's much more about a frame that can be customized. For instance, I just had a road frame made with a 142x12mm rear thru-axle.

Why?

twgh

ugo.santalucia wrote:

littledove44 wrote:

Whilst his dedication, craftsmanship and competence are not in question, I was not convinced that his breadth of experience was sufficient to convince me that he was the right person to build something truly exciting for me. That may well have been my inability to understand his pitch, or on the other hand if may have been his inability to understand my needs. I am in no way trying to aportion blame,but if I am going to pay several thousand pounds for a frame (about the same as I would from a top line manufacturer with warranty, liabilty insurance, track record etc.) I do not want any significant negative feelings, and I had a few.

Custom carbon... made in Germany by Mauro Sannino, he built my frame 34 years ago which I still use and he's been building custom frames for over 40 years, over the last ten custom carbon for Corratec. If you are looking for an experienced builder, look no further... he was building frames for the Olympic track team when it was still called USSR... Germany is less than 2 hours away with your friend's Gulfstream...

http://www.corratec.com/en/technologies/mauro-sannino

Now this getting silly!

I think the majority of people found the show to be a great way to meet these frame builders and see some rather wonderful looking bikes.

Whether one decides to part with their own money for a frame made by one of these people is up to them - all I can say is that the custom build process has been fantastic for me and I will be spreading that message to everyone I meet.

ugo.santalucia

twgh wrote:

Whether one decides to part with their own money for a frame made by one of these people is up to them - all I can say is that the custom build process has been fantastic for me and I will be spreading that message to everyone I meet.

Yes, but steel is different, things generally don't go much wrong with steel and you can take a punt on a relatively unknown builder... as someone who built his own frame said in the other thread it is precision plumbing after all.http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12965289 For carbon custom I agree with LittleDove ( :shock: ), I would not go for someone who doesn't seem to have a great deal of frames on his CV. Someone like the above mentioned Sannino has been building frames for half a century and is backed by a large company, Corratec, so effectively you are buying a Corratec frame made custom for you by a legendary artisan... I think it's the best of both worlds

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

twgh wrote:

Whether one decides to part with their own money for a frame made by one of these people is up to them - all I can say is that the custom build process has been fantastic for me and I will be spreading that message to everyone I meet.

Yes, but steel is different, things generally don't go much wrong with steel and you can take a punt on a relatively unknown builder... as someone who built his own frame said in the other thread it is precision plumbing after all.http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12965289 For carbon custom I agree with LittleDove ( :shock: ), I would not go for someone who doesn't seem to have a great deal of frames on his CV. Someone like the above mentioned Sannino has been building frames for half a century and is backed by a large company, Corratec, so effectively you are buying a Corratec frame made custom for you by a legendary artisan... I think it's the best of both worlds

I don't know many plumbers who mitre and fillet braze or weld their joints. But if there are any could you let me know cos it sounds great - I would love to have my central heating with seamless joints

littledove44

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Yes, but steel is different, things generally don't go much wrong with steel and you can take a punt on a relatively unknown builder... as someone who built his own frame said in the other thread it is precision plumbing after all.http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12965289 For carbon custom I agree with LittleDove ( :shock: ), I would not go for someone who doesn't seem to have a great deal of frames on his CV. Someone like the above mentioned Sannino has been building frames for half a century and is backed by a large company, Corratec, so effectively you are buying a Corratec frame made custom for you by a legendary artisan... I think it's the best of both worlds

OMG. We agree on something. :shock:

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

I don't know many plumbers who mitre and fillet braze or weld their joints. But if there are any could you let me know cos it sounds great - I would love to have my central heating with seamless joints

Don't quote me on this... it's the words of the guy who built his own frame... and a rather nice one...

twgh

littledove44 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Yes, but steel is different, things generally don't go much wrong with steel and you can take a punt on a relatively unknown builder... as someone who built his own frame said in the other thread it is precision plumbing after all.http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12965289 For carbon custom I agree with LittleDove ( :shock: ), I would not go for someone who doesn't seem to have a great deal of frames on his CV. Someone like the above mentioned Sannino has been building frames for half a century and is backed by a large company, Corratec, so effectively you are buying a Corratec frame made custom for you by a legendary artisan... I think it's the best of both worlds

OMG. We agree on something. :shock:

Awwww how cute!

woolwich

Hi Legend,

Precision plumbing was my expression. It was meant part in jest and in part simply to explain that the fabrication of a frame is rather simple in engineering terms. In fact soldering a lugged frame really is just old school plumbing.
IMO the real skill of the pro builders lies in giving that something special that others have spoken about. Either hours of finishing work, innovative design, experience of materials or fitting advice, whatever,they offer something special.
My take on Bespoked this year was that there were indeed a handful of bandwagoners, riding on the back of the huge success of our handbuilt market and thought commercial framebuilding was easy. I thought they had exhibited before they had either put the hours in for quality or gained the experience to give the bells of whistles you would expect from a premium product. No matter, they will fall by the wayside.
However I didn't let this detract from what was otherwise an excellent day out with top notch frames I aspire to make and may one day achieve. Mostly the quality was as awesome as the last 3 years.

mr_evil

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Mr Evil wrote:

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Hmm. The thing is doesn't everyone want a stiff, racey, yet comfortable bike? I ask because I read about the option of having a custom made "unique" bike tailored to an individual riders needs/wants, but I find it difficult to understand what that means outside of size / custom paint jobs / wheelset / groupset selection. Having the frame perfectly sized - great. But given the effect of sizing of stem / seatpost / cranks / bars, a few mm of difference in tube lengths is neither here nor there, no? I'd like a nice titanium frame, but surely there's no benefit from having a titanium frame custom made over and above purchasing a "standard" size frame?

There's much more about a frame that can be customized. For instance, I just had a road frame made with a 142x12mm rear thru-axle.

Why?

For the disc brakes. 130mm spacing like most current road disc frames have is not ideal because there aren't many hubs available, and they have narrow flange spacing to fit the rotor in, resulting in a weaker wheel. I could have just gone with 135mm dropouts, but 142mm is actually the same size, and stiffer and stronger, so it seemed like a good idea.

LegendLust

woolwich wrote:

Hi Legend,

Precision plumbing was my expression. It was meant part in jest and in part simply to explain that the fabrication of a frame is rather simple in engineering terms. In fact soldering a lugged frame really is just old school plumbing.
IMO the real skill of the pro builders lies in giving that something special that others have spoken about. Either hours of finishing work, innovative design, experience of materials or fitting advice, whatever,they offer something special.
My take on Bespoked this year was that there were indeed a handful of bandwagoners, riding on the back of the huge success of our handbuilt market and thought commercial framebuilding was easy. I thought they had exhibited before they had either put the hours in for quality or gained the experience to give the bells of whistles you would expect from a premium product. No matter, they will fall by the wayside.
However I didn't let this detract from what was otherwise an excellent day out with top notch frames I aspire to make and may one day achieve. Mostly the quality was as awesome as the last 3 years.

I agree it's simple. But where I worry about the new builders is do they understand frame design? I don't mean how the frame looks, a good craftsman can work on this. I mean do they understand frame geometry and how this affects how the frame rides. I suppose this doesn't matter when you build with pre fabricated lugs, with their pre-made angles, but what would these builders do when presented with a very unusual body shape and dimensions and they have to build a true made-to-measure frame that fits and handles well?

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

I agree it's simple. But where I worry about the new builders is do they understand frame design? I don't mean how the frame looks, a good craftsman can work on this. I mean do they understand frame geometry and how this affects how the frame rides. I suppose this doesn't matter when you build with pre fabricated lugs, with their pre-made angles, but what would these builders do when presented with a very unusual body shape and dimensions and they have to build a true made-to-measure frame that fits and handles well?

IS the answer Chas Roberts?

woolwich

Legend,

Yes I share your concerns about a handful of the new builders as well. I think you raise valid points about understanding effects of geometry/materials etc. I think I few of them had not yet grasped the complexity of the simple bike frame. One I spoke to at the show had only made 3 frames, this alarmed me from the perspective of understanding the product, even if his bikes were straight and true.
Do not dismiss new builders altogether though. A lot of the legendary builders are mostly self taught and had to start somewhere, providing they understand there limitations and do not deceive this is fine. I think the trick is talk to the man/women first.

Regarding the effects of different geometrys/materials. My own take is that the only way to learn is to make and ride them. Make mistakes and do it again.