Failed chinese carbon clincher wheels

matt-h

Camcycle1974 wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

An honorable thing to do. Maybe not fair to tar all the Chinese wheel manufacturers with the same brush though? Some good, some bad just like anything else. Anecdotally my LBS have just ditched Focus due to their shocking warranty policy. This from a respected German bike company so good and bad can occur anywhere.

Focus sent me a new upgraded frame when my dropouts were chewed - it's debateable that it was my cack handed ness that caused the problem.
They did this based on photographs and proof of purchase.
Nothing but positives from me

Matt

Monty Dog

To the OP, save on shipping costs by cutting the rim into pieces and fitting them in a smaller box or sending only the bit that failed - its U-S anyway. Carbon clinchers are a bad idea IMO - I've broken enough carbon tubular rims to know they're not bomb-proof.

cycleclinic

Steel forks and ally forks crack too ugo

gingejp

Monty Dog wrote:

To the OP, save on shipping costs by cutting the rim into pieces and fitting them in a smaller box or sending only the bit that failed - its U-S anyway. Carbon clinchers are a bad idea IMO - I've broken enough carbon tubular rims to know they're not bomb-proof.

Nice idea to try cut down the £130 hit but arron-bike were adamant on having to send whole thing back at my expense in both directions. That was before I had named and shamed on the cycling forums. I knew once I'd done that then I'd shot my bolt on ever getting them exchanged.

At least now if you search 'arron-bike' on google, all the threads are listed with pics of the wheels. Should deter others that are tempted by their ad on ebay.

arronbike

Hi. everyone
this is arron-bike.
i am not coming to blame or argue or say sorry, just want to explain something.

this buyer bought pair of wheels in June.2013, and found problem in these days, and then he threatened us to send two new rims to him otherwise he will post some bad comment in several cycling forums.
we kindly asked him to send back the wheels as we need to check first.
how could he definitely stated that's a rim fault but not improper use?
after we check, if it is our rim fault, we will change new rims and rebuild the wheels and send to this buyer.

and as drlodge said "When you buy, you agree to their terms and conditions including their returns policy. If you don't like their policy, don't buy from them. Simples."
international busniess are complicated, we have clearly stated our returns policy in listing.

furthermore,
carbon rims are comsumables, especially carbon clincher.Any brand can break by fatigue or damage, also Chinese carbon is 1/6 the price of name brand wheelsets, so it's affordable enough to buy a fresh set each year if you feel the need.

arron

Grill

The fact that they're willing to rebuild them on the new rims is a big deal. I had a faulty 6800 rear hub and Madison refused to rebuild the wheel, so the build and new spokes are all on me (as well as the shipping).

Basically the series of events is how I pictured them.
1. OP buys wheels from Arronbike
2. 10 months later wheels develop a fault (still have no idea as to mileage/conditions/riding style)
3. Aaronbike is willing to replace in accordance with their T&C's
4. OP says not good enough and threatens to spam with bad publicity
5. OP follows through on threat, accomplishes nothing

I started this thread with no sympathy for the OP and I remain firmly entrenched in that camp.

ugo.santalucia

arronbike wrote:

carbon rims are comsumables, especially carbon clincher.Any brand can break by fatigue or damage,
arron

Is this clear in the conditions of sale? It's the first time I come across this statement. Rims wear, yes, but they should not fail... especially if they are not even one year old.
Do you make clear to the buyers that this is especially true for clinchers?

Camcycle1974

matt-h wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

An honorable thing to do. Maybe not fair to tar all the Chinese wheel manufacturers with the same brush though? Some good, some bad just like anything else. Anecdotally my LBS have just ditched Focus due to their shocking warranty policy. This from a respected German bike company so good and bad can occur anywhere.

Focus sent me a new upgraded frame when my dropouts were chewed - it's debateable that it was my cack handed ness that caused the problem.
They did this based on photographs and proof of purchase.
Nothing but positives from me

Matt

Good to hear Matt. In this case it seems Focus are not willing to accept they have a problem with one of their own brand wheels which come on a lot of their models. The LBS had to give the customer a new Cannondale as Focus were not prepared to deal with the issue, resulting in all the Focus frames now being on sale and the contract terminated!

sloppyschleckonds

Buying carbon clinchers should be punishable by death anyway

Monty Dog

IMO Aaron Bike are being unreasonable expecting you to pay premium air carriage by not accepting the wheel in 'kit' form - it's broken anyway and not going to make any difference to the outcome, they're going to take it apart when it arrives. I'd buy a replacement rim elsewhere (tubular) and get your LBS to rebuild the wheel.

Colinthecop

arronbike wrote:

also Chinese carbon is 1/6 the price of name brand wheelsets,

I think for me, this is the crux of the issue.

If you go for the cheap option, infact the much, much cheaper option there has to be a compromise.

Now i'd like to think that the compromise is not the quality, I'm sure not every set of wheels sold by arronbike break within the first 12 months, I mean there's plenty threads on here about 'brand' named wheels breaking.

So I guess the compromise has to be the ability to pop down to your LBS and get them replaced.

The OP got a bargain, and now when something has gone wrong he wants top level service for bottom level price.

gingejp

arronbike wrote:

Hi. everyone
this is arron-bike.
i am not coming to blame or argue or say sorry, just want to explain something.

this buyer bought pair of wheels in June.2013, and found problem in these days, and then he threatened us to send two new rims to him otherwise he will post some bad comment in several cycling forums.
we kindly asked him to send back the wheels as we need to check first.
how could he definitely stated that's a rim fault but not improper use?
after we check, if it is our rim fault, we will change new rims and rebuild the wheels and send to this buyer.

and as drlodge said "When you buy, you agree to their terms and conditions including their returns policy. If you don't like their policy, don't buy from them. Simples."
international busniess are complicated, we have clearly stated our returns policy in listing.

furthermore,
carbon rims are comsumables, especially carbon clincher.Any brand can break by fatigue or damage, also Chinese carbon is 1/6 the price of name brand wheelsets, so it's affordable enough to buy a fresh set each year if you feel the need.

arron

Lets get some facts straight please. I did not have a problem with the wheels, then right off the bat, threaten to post on the web if I didn't get sent new rims. That's not true. Here is a timeline of what happened here :-

All e-mails in below comms were through ebay system and I still have them.

1 - Purchased wheels through ebay in June 2013 after being impressed by the ad and comms with the seller, assuring the quality of the wheels.
2 - 10 month period of time being very happy with the wheels. I had noticed the brakes could be a bit grabby, but put this down to braking on carbon rims just being different.
3 - April 2014, after extremely grabby braking, noticed rear wheel braking surface was bulging out. Removed tyre to see damage as per photos as start of thread. Checked front wheel where there was also a very slight high spot on braking surface, found a small crack each side of rim in exactly same place as on rear rim.
4 - 8th April 2014, E-mailed arron-bike picture of the failed rims, stating I had bought in May 2013 (I was asking questions in May, purchased June 3rd 2013), stated they had been used moderately (est. circa 1000 miles) and that I was not aware I had hit any potholes etc that could have caused this to happen. pointed out that the splits occur near an area that almost looks like a patch. State that return postage is almost as much as buying a new pair of rims from the UK. Ask the question on what they are going to do about it.
5 - 8th April - Reply from seller stating that as they are sorry to hear that, but the wheels are over a year old so they can not do anything about it. They suggest I buy some new wheels.
6 - I send e-mail 20 mins later stating that the wheels were purchased on 3rd June 2013 and I have paypal receipt to prove it, which I offer to send to an alternative e-mail address (you can't send attachments, other than pics, through ebay messaging).
7 - 2 hrs later, seller replies apologising for mistake about dates, saying send the wheel back and they will change it, but at my postage cost both ways.
8 - I reply asking that they do realise that this is both wheels, not just the back. Pointed out again that postage there and back is more than cost of 1 rim in UK. Asked again if they will ship both rims, at their expense, and I will have wheels built up at my LBS, at my expense.
9 - 9th April - By the next morning, no reply (China time ahead of UK so would be afternoon there). Further e-mail sent asking if they were going to reply.
10 - No reply 5 hrs later, noticed they had been active on ebay that day, leaving feedback for others. Sent further e-mail saying I am not happy to be ignored and that if they didn't reply by next morning, I would post my experience on cycling forums. Re-iterated my solution that they post rims, I get wheels built.
11 -10th April - Seller replies saying he is just the seller and can't change company rules. I must pay shipping costs both ways. Says nothing still about front wheel.
12 - E-mailed seller back stating, as previously mentioned, it costs more to post back than new rim here. Stated I believed my solution would have been the most cost effective. Apologised, but said I felt I should warn people about buying from them as the postage costs effectively mean there is no warranty.
13 - Posted the pics up so others can see what can happen, warning against buying from arron-bike and http://www.d-bike.com

I have the e-mail trace to prove the above chronology is 100% factual.

arron-bike - Your reply on here "carbon rims are comsumables, especially carbon clincher.Any brand can break by fatigue or damage, also Chinese carbon is 1/6 the price of name brand wheelsets, so it's affordable enough to buy a fresh set each year if you feel the need." - suggests the wheels may well not last a year, so buy some every year if you want. I don't recall you saying any such thing in my comms with you before I purchased them and it certainly isn't suggested in your ad.

The above is virtually accepting that your components are sub standard. Naive as I've been here, I never thought I was buying a 'consumable'.

Below is the link to the wheels I purchased. people can make up their own minds if the ad is in keeping with your statements about carbon rims being consumables.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50mm-clincher ... 3a7fc63c1c

I genuinely am sorry it had to be this way, but you can't advertise products as you do, implying they are good quality, then hide behind restrictive postage costs in the event of a failure. That's not good business in my book. I should have considered the costs of return postage before purchasing, that's my bad. I just hope others thinking of buying from you can find this thread first, so they can go into any purchase from you with their eyes wide open.

gingejp

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Buying carbon clinchers should be punishable by death anyway

Lol.... my head is well and truly on the chopping block.

Colinthecop

gingejp wrote:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50mm-clincher ... 3a7fc63c1c

I genuinely am sorry it had to be this way, but you can't advertise products as you do, implying they are good quality, then hide behind restrictive postage costs in the event of a failure

I'm not sure you can blame an Ebay seller based in China for postage costs. I'm pretty sure they dont set the prices.

And the Ebay add you linked to, clearly states that in the event of a claim postage will be paid for by the buyer.

drlodge

arronbike wrote:

Hi. everyone
this is arron-bike.
i am not coming to blame or argue or say sorry, just want to explain something.

this buyer bought pair of wheels in June.2013, and found problem in these days, and then he threatened us to send two new rims to him otherwise he will post some bad comment in several cycling forums.
we kindly asked him to send back the wheels as we need to check first.
how could he definitely stated that's a rim fault but not improper use?
after we check, if it is our rim fault, we will change new rims and rebuild the wheels and send to this buyer.

and as drlodge said "When you buy, you agree to their terms and conditions including their returns policy. If you don't like their policy, don't buy from them. Simples."
international busniess are complicated, we have clearly stated our returns policy in listing.

furthermore,
carbon rims are comsumables, especially carbon clincher.Any brand can break by fatigue or damage, also Chinese carbon is 1/6 the price of name brand wheelsets, so it's affordable enough to buy a fresh set each year if you feel the need.

arron

I might take issue with the statement "carbon rims are consumables" if that implies they are unlikey to last long due to poor design, obviously they have limited brake track life and I assume this is what is meant.

I have little sympathy with the OP unless he can point out exactly where arron-bikes are not meeting their terms and conditions. If I were in Arron's shoes I'd probably take the same approach.

imposter2.0

gingejp wrote:

The above is virtually accepting that your components are sub standard. Naive as I've been here, I never thought I was buying a 'consumable'.

All wheels are 'consumable'. Carbon or not. You would be naive to think otherwise.

slowbike

Colinthecop wrote:

gingejp wrote:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50mm-clincher ... 3a7fc63c1c

I genuinely am sorry it had to be this way, but you can't advertise products as you do, implying they are good quality, then hide behind restrictive postage costs in the event of a failure

I'm not sure you can blame an Ebay seller based in China for postage costs. I'm pretty sure they dont set the prices.

And the Ebay add you linked to, clearly states that in the event of a claim postage will be paid for by the buyer.

what the ad states is:
[/quote]Warranty:
We warrant wheels and frames to be free from manufacturing defects for a period of two years after the original
date of the purchase for the original owner. Any quality issues occurs during warrant period for
rims/wheels/components,Arron-bike is obligated to replace free necessary components, shipping
cost paid by customers.
Note: Original Proof of purchase is required[/quote]

What that suggests to me is that arron-bike would send out replacement rims for the cost of postage alone - not that they'd necessarily want the broken ones sent back (at an additional significant cost to the buyer).

I've had a mix of methods when claiming on a warranty - sometimes they want the goods back, other times they just send out a replacement FOC.

The latest one I had was with GoPro - the clip that holds the case closed broke (my own fault though) - and I contacted GoPro to find out where I could get a replacement clip - they asked for photos, proof of purchase and sent out a replacement FOC. GoPro may be expensive, but their customer service seems to be superb.

If Aaron-bikes cannot establish from photos if the rim was damaged through manufacturing fault or user abuse then I can understand their desire to receive the wheels back for inspection - but with the posting cost to be added that does negate the effectiveness of their warranty (in the UK). I am a little alarmed to read that Aaron-bikes considers carbon wheels to be consumables though - especially as they're offering a 2 year warranty on them. We all know wheels don't last forever, but 1000 miles is nothing for a wheelset - I get more out of tyres!

gingejp

Just to clarify a little due to some comments (which I in no way disagree with).

I have not posted all this up, in any way to try and get anything out of arron-bike. When I bought these wheels, I searche google for arron-bike to see if they were selling decent kit. Nothing came up. I bought the wheels, it's gone wrong and that's my bad for not considering the real implications of any fault. If anyone else now searches arron-bike in google, they will hopefully find this thread and they can make their own decision, knowing all the things that I never considered. When buying I never even looked at postage costs. I should have done. Arron-bike assured me the rims were really good quality and I would be very happy. I was naive to believe that between their assurances and lack of google throwing up anything to the contrary, the wheels would be fine.

What has come out of this, for me at least, is that there are chinese companies out there, Farsports for one, where their policy on guarantee claims is a lot more manageable. A guarantee where the buyer has to pay postage in both directions essential means you have no guarantee and that is something anybody thinking of ordering from abroad should strongly consider.

drlodge

gingejp wrote:

What has come out of this, for me at least, is that there are chinese companies out there, Farsports for one, where their policy on guarantee claims is a lot more manageable. A guarantee where the buyer has to pay postage in both directions essential means you have no guarantee and that is something anybody thinking of ordering from abroad should strongly consider.

Its a warranty not a guarantee, but otherwise good point made. If you by something with large postage costs the warranty has little value since it is prohibitive to post the items back for repair/replacement.

I have also run into this risk - bought a mobile phone from a .co.uk web site, found it is is based in Hong Kong so if anything goes wrong with it I'm stuffed.

Semantik

OP, thanks for the warning about 'arronbike'- I won't be buying from them any time soon. Seems obvious they are a bunch of shysters selling cr*p quality goods with zero customer service. Dare say you've learnt your lesson about buying from Oriental sellers ever again. The Chinese are great at copying quality brands. Unfortunately this is not the same as REPRODUCING quality brands which, the whole world knows, they can't seem to manage.

Message to arronbike: Surely it's time you changed your Ebay trading name(again) so you can carrying on selling some more of your rubbish for a bit longer?

Grill

Semantik wrote:

OP, thanks for the warning about 'arronbike'- I won't be buying from them any time soon. Seems obvious they are a bunch of shysters selling cr*p quality goods with zero customer service. Dare say you've learnt your lesson about buying from Oriental sellers ever again. The Chinese are great at copying quality brands. Unfortunately this is not the same as REPRODUCING quality brands which, the whole world knows, they can't seem to manage.

Message to arronbike: Surely it's time you changed your Ebay trading name(again) so you can carrying on selling some more of your rubbish for a bit longer?

Wow. There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin... :roll:

flasher

I see nothing wrong with the seller wanting to see the problem before rectifying the situation, it's hardly the sellers fault for you living the other side of the world.

If you want ease in case of a warranty claim, don't be cheap and buy from your LBS.