Failed chinese carbon clincher wheels

gingejp

Slowbike wrote:

Imposter wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Depends if you value customer service. From the picture, you can clearly see the rim has failed. If posted back, they would only throw in the bin. If you understand the customers quandary that it costs more to post back than a new rim, then they could offer to supply new rim. I'll still have to pay to have wheels built back up again. Posting out new rims and having me get them built up at this end, is the most cost effective solution, that keeps the customer happy and protects arron-bike reputation.

Who the hell is going to order anything of arron-bike or http://www.d-bike.com after reading this thread?

Whether you like it or not, that isn't how the returns process works. For all they know, you could just be blagging some new rims using a pic you found on the internet. If I was them, I'd want to see the rims first, as well. 'Buyer beware' unfortunately.

As I said earlier, the rim seems to have failed along the line of some kind of rectangular shape in the carbon - would be interesting to know what that is and why it's there...

yes - but in this day of the internet confirmation could be gathered by using a video call ... it's not as though Skype is prohibitively expensive - someone from the company can have an initial look and establish if they believe it is a manufacturing fault or something else that needs greater investigation. They could even agree to send new rims and ask for the existing rims to be cut whilst on the call ...

I could prove they are definately the rims they sent me. When I got them in June, I put the tyres on and fitted a boardman sticker kit. I sent the seller a picture of my bike with the wheels fitted with the stickers in place saying how great they looked. The stickers can be seen in the pics of the failed rims.

To be fair, the seller hasn't denied that they are his rims and he hasn't suggested the failure isn't due a anything other than a manufacturing fault. I do feel however, that he is hiding behind the postage costs, because he knows I''m unlikely to pay to send the wheels back. It would just be throwing good money after bad.

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Depends if you value customer service. From the picture, you can clearly see the rim has failed. If posted back, they would only throw in the bin. If you understand the customers quandary that it costs more to post back than a new rim, then they could offer to supply new rim. I'll still have to pay to have wheels built back up again. Posting out new rims and having me get them built up at this end, is the most cost effective solution, that keeps the customer happy and protects arron-bike reputation.

Who the hell is going to order anything of arron-bike or http://www.d-bike.com after reading this thread?

Thing is, unless they are going to refund the postage if they agree with you that the rim was faulty, you are definitely down £130 just for them to look at the rims. Therefore, they could charge you £130 for the new rims, and not to send the old ones back, and no-one would be worse off than the initial proposal but at least you'd know that the money you were spending would get you the new pair of rims. And, of course, they could charge you a lot less and still not be out of pocket themselves.

If I was the OP I would not bother... two faulty rims out of two means it's likely to happen again... best to chuck the wheels in a skip (I am assuming the hubs are worthless) and forget about the all matter

drlodge

Agreed - whats to say the new rims will be any different/better than the ones that have failed? Its money down the drain, put it down to experience and move on.

gingejp

Camcycle1974 wrote:

At least you are philosophical about it. Imagine if it were a Mavic or Zipp rim out of warranty. Considerably more expensive to swallow. My Farsports wheels were £400 including the shipping so 1/4 of the equivalent Mavic rim of a similar spec. Let's just hope they live up to expectations and I am not on here in 6 months posting similar pictures. I do sympathise which I feel some others on the thread may not. I'm in Cambs so this was another factor in purchasing carbon rims, we don't really have hills as such!

I've read a post somewhere that said Farsports will just post out new gear in event of a warranty claim, without you having to post failed component back. Hopefully yours are well manufactured and you will continue to be happy with them. I wish I'd done a little more research before buying mine. I'd probably have gone to Farsports too, but we live and learn.

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Depends if you value customer service. From the picture, you can clearly see the rim has failed. If posted back, they would only throw in the bin. If you understand the customers quandary that it costs more to post back than a new rim, then they could offer to supply new rim. I'll still have to pay to have wheels built back up again. Posting out new rims and having me get them built up at this end, is the most cost effective solution, that keeps the customer happy and protects arron-bike reputation.

Who the hell is going to order anything of arron-bike or http://www.d-bike.com after reading this thread?

Thing is, unless they are going to refund the postage if they agree with you that the rim was faulty, you are definitely down £130 just for them to look at the rims. Therefore, they could charge you £130 for the new rims, and not to send the old ones back, and no-one would be worse off than the initial proposal but at least you'd know that the money you were spending would get you the new pair of rims. And, of course, they could charge you a lot less and still not be out of pocket themselves.

If I was the OP I would not bother... two faulty rims out of two means it's likely to happen again... best to chuck the wheels in a skip (I am assuming the hubs are worthless) and forget about the all matter

Well yes - I think I'm with you there. Did occur to me that he could get tubs instead but you'd probably end up needing different spokes for those!

Grill

I replied to you on WeightWeenies. How many forums do you plan to bombard due to your inability to accept responsibility?

Camcycle1974

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

My Farsports wheels were £400 including the shipping so 1/4 of the equivalent Mavic rim of a similar spec.

I have seen Farsports rims, other Chinese rims and I have seen Zipp, Enve and Mavic RIMS. I don't know whether they are worth 4 times the price, but they are significantly better rims. The Zipp 303 FC and the Mavic C 40 in particular are incredibly well built and finished.
SOME Chinese rims don't even have a homogeneous nipple bed, meaning some hole require long nipples as the bed is thicker, others could do with short ones, basically they would require different spoke lengths for different holes

The jury is still out I guess. I am in no doubt that Mavic et al with their R&D budget make significantly better rims than your average Chinese manufacturer but if they are well built and build up into a good wheel I will be satisfied. I will post up some pics when i get the wheels, I would be interested in hearing what peoples views of them are. Were the FS ones better than a n other Chinese rim? As mine will come built I guess they have tolerances in place otherwise they would have issues when building them? From their blurb I see they have a close working relationship with one rim manufacturer which may help?

gingejp

Grill wrote:

I replied to you on WeightWeenies. How many forums do you plan to bombard due to your inability to accept responsibility?

I've not seen your reply. If you read back though this thread I think it's clear I know I did the wrong thing by buying direct from china and I also think it's clear I accept that.

Do you think I should just keep this to myself so the next guy can unwittingly end up in the same situation? If I can get even one person to steer clear of this seller, then I believe I've done a good deed. I'm sorry to bore you in my attempt to do so.

Grill

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

veronese68

Imposter wrote:

Whether you like it or not, that isn't how the returns process works. For all they know, you could just be blagging some new rims using a pic you found on the internet. If I was them, I'd want to see the rims first, as well. 'Buyer beware' unfortunately.

I think a reputable firm will honour a warranty based on pictures if postage costs are prohibitive. We often do, completely different market though. We may ask for more detailed pictures or from a different angle as we like to try and ascertain why something has failed. It's just good service and we like to keep our customers happy.
Personally I wouldn't buy something like that from an unkown Ebayer on the far side of the planet. Buyer took a chance in an attempt to save money and lost out. If you want a proper warranty and service buy from a proper company. Glad it wasn't a sudden catastrophic failure that caused an accident anyway.

Grill

Veronese68 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Whether you like it or not, that isn't how the returns process works. For all they know, you could just be blagging some new rims using a pic you found on the internet. If I was them, I'd want to see the rims first, as well. 'Buyer beware' unfortunately.

I think a reputable firm will honour a warranty based on pictures if postage costs are prohibitive. We often do, completely different market though. We may ask for more detailed pictures or from a different angle as we like to try and ascertain why something has failed. It's just good service and we like to keep our customers happy.
Personally I wouldn't buy something like that from an unkown Ebayer on the far side of the planet. Buyer took a chance in an attempt to save money and lost out. If you want a proper warranty and service buy from a proper company. Glad it wasn't a sudden catastrophic failure that caused an accident anyway.

Madison don't...

gingejp

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

gingejp

Veronese68 wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Whether you like it or not, that isn't how the returns process works. For all they know, you could just be blagging some new rims using a pic you found on the internet. If I was them, I'd want to see the rims first, as well. 'Buyer beware' unfortunately.

I think a reputable firm will honour a warranty based on pictures if postage costs are prohibitive. We often do, completely different market though. We may ask for more detailed pictures or from a different angle as we like to try and ascertain why something has failed. It's just good service and we like to keep our customers happy.
Personally I wouldn't buy something like that from an unkown Ebayer on the far side of the planet. Buyer took a chance in an attempt to save money and lost out. If you want a proper warranty and service buy from a proper company. Glad it wasn't a sudden catastrophic failure that caused an accident anyway.

I've been bitten. I won't be buying from China again, which is a shame as it makes me steer clear of others that may be much more reputable. Luckily I noticed the rim was bulging at the brake surface after the rear brake started biting funny, so I wasn't hurt and no real harm done.

Grill

Because you're upset they didn't send you free rims...

Had they done that you never would have signed up to this forum to 'warn' us about dodgy quality.

Camcycle1974

gingejp wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

An honorable thing to do. Maybe not fair to tar all the Chinese wheel manufacturers with the same brush though? Some good, some bad just like anything else. Anecdotally my LBS have just ditched Focus due to their shocking warranty policy. This from a respected German bike company so good and bad can occur anywhere.

Grill

Camcycle1974 wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

An honorable thing to do. Maybe not fair to tar all the Chinese wheel manufacturers with the same brush though? Some good, some bad just like anything else. Anecdotally my LBS have just ditched Focus due to their shocking warranty policy. This from a respected German bike company so good and bad can occur anywhere.

Indeed. When I managed a shop in France I was constantly dropping brands due to poor warranty practices.

gingejp

Grill wrote:

Because you're upset they didn't send you free rims...

Had they done that you never would have signed up to this forum to 'warn' us about dodgy quality.

If they'd sent out rims, then they would be demonstrating they care about customer satisfaction and their reputation. It's been pointed out that's what Farsports do. I was sorry that this seems to bore you. I'm not anymore. You don't seem like a very nice person. I won't be replying to anything else you post.

gingejp

Camcycle1974 wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

An honorable thing to do. Maybe not fair to tar all the Chinese wheel manufacturers with the same brush though? Some good, some bad just like anything else. Anecdotally my LBS have just ditched Focus due to their shocking warranty policy. This from a respected German bike company so good and bad can occur anywhere.

Agreed. It isn't fair at all to tar all with same brush. That's not what I'm trying to do and I apologise if it's come across that way. I think I mentioned that lots of good manufacturing takes place in the far east. Farsports sound like a much more reputable company and I wish I had done more research and I'd maybe have one there myself in the first instance. As it is, I think I'll stick with UK suppliers so any issues are much easier to deal with. Sincerely good luck with your wheels.

ugo.santalucia

gingejp wrote:

Agreed. It isn't fair at all to tar all with same brush. That's not what I'm trying to do and I apologise if it's come across that way.

No need to apologise, it's quite clear your rant was against one particular retailer.

Now I suggest we ALL go back to topic if there is anything more to say... personal bickering is not helping anybody

Camcycle1974

gingejp wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Grill wrote:

Sharing your experiences is fine- it's what the cycling community is all about. It is a shame that it took a hit to your wallet to get you involved though.

I repeat. I'm just trying to warn people not to make same mistakes I've made.

An honorable thing to do. Maybe not fair to tar all the Chinese wheel manufacturers with the same brush though? Some good, some bad just like anything else. Anecdotally my LBS have just ditched Focus due to their shocking warranty policy. This from a respected German bike company so good and bad can occur anywhere.

Agreed. It isn't fair at all to tar all with same brush. That's not what I'm trying to do and I apologise if it's come across that way. I think I mentioned that lots of good manufacturing takes place in the far east. Farsports sound like a much more reputable company and I wish I had done more research and I'd maybe have one there myself in the first instance. As it is, I think I'll stick with UK suppliers so any issues are much easier to deal with. Sincerely good luck with your wheels.

Thanks, I hope it all goes to plan (crosses fingers,toes etc!) I will do a thread when they come to hopefully highlight the quality, value and service that can be found in a purchase direct from China! There is a decent review of Farsports clinchers on another well known site. Search farsports carbon clinchers and it should come up.

gingejp

ugo.santalucia wrote:

gingejp wrote:

Agreed. It isn't fair at all to tar all with same brush. That's not what I'm trying to do and I apologise if it's come across that way.

No need to apologise, it's quite clear your rant was against one particular retailer.

Now I suggest we ALL go back to topic if there is anything more to say... personal bickering is not helping anybody

Amen.... Thank you.

I'd like to think that somewhere down the line, another cyclist had seen 'arron-bike' on ebay, searched on google and found this post, which would hopefully make them think twice. Reading through some of the others comments he may well be directed towards Farsports or just buy through his home country. At the very least, he would do more research before parting with the cash, which unfortunately for me, is something I never did. But it's only money, so no real harm done.

Good luck with your wheels camcycle. I'm sure they will be fine. You've done your research.

ugo.santalucia

Found it, from Dave at Planet X December 2012

Be very careful ordering from China , and avoid carbon clinchers with carbon braking surface completely , from our experience only Zipp carbon clinchers are really up to the job

Camcycle1974

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Found it, from Dave at Planet X December 2012

Be very careful ordering from China , and avoid carbon clinchers with carbon braking surface completely , from our experience only Zipp carbon clinchers are really up to the job

Tech does move on in 18 months though, the reports I have read of carbon clinchers mention no loss of braking performance over time. One user had been running the same wheels for 9,500 miles! I guess PX have their own reasons which is fair enough. Would your assessment be that "only Zipp are up to the job"?

Grill

Camcycle1974 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Found it, from Dave at Planet X December 2012

Be very careful ordering from China , and avoid carbon clinchers with carbon braking surface completely , from our experience only Zipp carbon clinchers are really up to the job

Tech does move on in 18 months though, the reports I have read of carbon clinchers mention no loss of braking performance over time. One user had been running the same wheels for 9,500 miles! I guess PX have their own reasons which is fair enough. Would your assessment be that "only Zipp are up to the job"?

It's dated. These days you have Enve, Reynolds, Xentis, Mavic, Easton and many more that produce quality carbon clinchers (and many of these are superior to Zipp).

cycleclinic

While I am still not convinced about carbon clinchers in general (carbon tubs are a different matter) I do have a set of carbon clinchers from China. I just bought rims so see how good they actually were. The rim is one of the best I have ever built with I could not find any defects anywhere in them. they appear to be gigiantex like in there quality so the actual resins used may not to standard of those used by Mavic or ENVE e.t.c but as I ride in East anglia I am not worried about the transition temperature of the resins. Of course they may fail in time but it has not happened yet. Not all chinese suppliers will buy from the same factories and you do not know where those rims actually came from. So to lump all chinese rims into the same bag is a bit unfair as there is more than one factory out there and there are so many riding them without failures.

The cheaper the wheel though the more I would worry and £400 for wheels shipped to the U.K is very cheap for carbon fibre. With such a low price the quality of the rim is one thing that is likely to suffer. You pay your money and take your choice. There should be no sour grapes - eyes wide open and all.

Still carbon tubs are better but we all know that.

mfin

thecycleclinic wrote:

Still carbon tubs are better but we all know that.

Don't be so sure!

vanleapo

I bought a pair of Carbon Clinchers from Farsports 2 years ago. After about 10months of use I put them into my LBS to get the front wheel trued, he noticed that there was a very small bulge next to one of the spoke holes and suggested it was a crack in the carbon fibre. Quite rightly the LBS refused to true the rim.

The bulge was so small that you had to get it in the right light to be able to see it, but I managed to get some photos of it.

I sent these to Farsports and they replied within 24 hours.
After a couple of days they accepted there was a problem with the rim and said they would ship a new one.

3 weeks later I received a new rim and 3 new spokes & nipples. The new rim actually looks better quality than the original, suggesting that Farsports may be improving their manufacturer.

I got the LBS to rebuild the wheel, and he thought it looked a pretty good quality rim.
Obviously I had to cover the cost of the rebuild, but I thought the customer service from Farsports was pretty good.

jane90

In the 1990's, Italian manufacturers dominated the leather goods sector, manufacturing a large proportion of shoes, handbags, etc consumed in the EU and beyond. Early attempts by Chinese manufacturers to compete were plagued by quality issues, but they learned quickly and improved manufacturing standards up to,and then beyond, European standards. They were helped by two things. First, European manufacturers taking a very short-term view in outsourcing some of the manufacturing process to the far east, thereby exporting their intellectual capital and best-practice. Second, the Italian manufactures remained complacent about the inferiority of the Chinese goods, reassuring themselves that the quality of stitching on the bags or the gluing of the heels on the shoes would never *quite* match the know-how of the Italian artisans with their hundreds of years of tradition behind them - long after the quality of the Chinese manufacturing was every bit as good as the European, offered at a fraction of the cost. The current state of the Italian economy and its visible trade imbalance is a testament to the magnitude of this error.

Talking about "Chinese wheels" or Chinese anything is, of course, a sweeping generalisation, much like talking about "French wheels" or "American wheels"; some will be better than others. I wouldn't dream of buying anything from an Ebay seller without researching them properly but my personal experience of Farsport wheels has been very good. I have a pair of Enve 6.7's and a pair of the latest-generation toroidal Farsport clinchers with the newest high-temperature braking-surface and while the Enve is the better wheelset, the Farsport compares pretty well and is astonishingly good value for money. Obviously, you have to factor the warranty issue into the price differential but my experience of dealing with Farsport was a good one.

ugo.santalucia

Carbon... pile of sxxte! I just found what looks like a nice crack in my fork's steerer... now let's see how long it takes Madison to put me back on the road...

Pile of sxxte!! :x :x :x

gingejp

vanleapo wrote:

I bought a pair of Carbon Clinchers from Farsports 2 years ago. After about 10months of use I put them into my LBS to get the front wheel trued, he noticed that there was a very small bulge next to one of the spoke holes and suggested it was a crack in the carbon fibre. Quite rightly the LBS refused to true the rim.

The bulge was so small that you had to get it in the right light to be able to see it, but I managed to get some photos of it.

I sent these to Farsports and they replied within 24 hours.
After a couple of days they accepted there was a problem with the rim and said they would ship a new one.

3 weeks later I received a new rim and 3 new spokes & nipples. The new rim actually looks better quality than the original, suggesting that Farsports may be improving their manufacturer.

I got the LBS to rebuild the wheel, and he thought it looked a pretty good quality rim.
Obviously I had to cover the cost of the rebuild, but I thought the customer service from Farsports was pretty good.

Pleased you got looked after..... herein lies the difference between good customer service and bad.... Farsports seem to be building a good reputation in the right way...

On an aside... Garmin customer service is also first class....