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FTP / Heartrate

StalinStalin Posts: 208
Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?
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  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Of course not, because FTP is purely defined by power.

    So I assume you're really wanting to ask a different question.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 931
    I dont understand the question.

    As my FTP has increased, my heart rate at FTP has stayed relatively the same.
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    markwb79 wrote:
    I dont understand the question.

    As my FTP has increased, my heart rate at FTP has stayed relatively the same.

    So your power:heart rate has improved.

    You see if heart rate was irrelevant there should be people who have improved their FTP without improving their power:heart rate ratio or their sustainable heart rate at FTP.

    My maximum sustainable heart rate over 20 minutes to an hour is 163bpm, and this has not changed in over 30 years. My maximum heart rate is now only 174 bpm - about 20 years ago it was 179bpm - no matter how hard I push myself I can't sustain anything over 163 bpm. So the only way I can improve my sustainable power is to increase my power:heart rate ratio.

    I've been trying for the last 6 months to make an improvement in my 20 minute power without improving power:heart rate ratio but every time I've improved my average power over 20 minutes my average heart rate has failed to increase.
    In fact my power:heart rate ratio keeps improving even at powers below FTP.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,012
    Stalin wrote:
    So your power:heart rate has improved.

    You see if heart rate was irrelevant there should be people who have improved their FTP without improving their power:heart rate ratio or their sustainable heart rate at FTP.

    You need to stop making things up.
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 931
    Stalin wrote:
    markwb79 wrote:
    I dont understand the question.

    As my FTP has increased, my heart rate at FTP has stayed relatively the same.

    So your power:heart rate has improved.

    You see if heart rate was irrelevant there should be people who have improved their FTP without improving their power:heart rate ratio or their sustainable heart rate at FTP.

    My maximum sustainable heart rate over 20 minutes to an hour is 163bpm, and this has not changed in over 30 years. My maximum heart rate is now only 174 bpm - about 20 years ago it was 179bpm - no matter how hard I push myself I can't sustain anything over 163 bpm. So the only way I can improve my sustainable power is to increase my power:heart rate ratio.

    I've been trying for the last 6 months to make an improvement in my 20 minute power without improving power:heart rate ratio but every time I've improved my average power over 20 minutes my average heart rate has failed to increase.
    In fact my power:heart rate ratio keeps improving even at powers below FTP.

    Sorry, now I get what you are saying. Your trying to discredit the use of training with a power meter.
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    markwb79 wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    markwb79 wrote:
    I dont understand the question.

    As my FTP has increased, my heart rate at FTP has stayed relatively the same.

    So your power:heart rate has improved.

    You see if heart rate was irrelevant there should be people who have improved their FTP without improving their power:heart rate ratio or their sustainable heart rate at FTP.

    My maximum sustainable heart rate over 20 minutes to an hour is 163bpm, and this has not changed in over 30 years. My maximum heart rate is now only 174 bpm - about 20 years ago it was 179bpm - no matter how hard I push myself I can't sustain anything over 163 bpm. So the only way I can improve my sustainable power is to increase my power:heart rate ratio.

    I've been trying for the last 6 months to make an improvement in my 20 minute power without improving power:heart rate ratio but every time I've improved my average power over 20 minutes my average heart rate has failed to increase.
    In fact my power:heart rate ratio keeps improving even at powers below FTP.

    Sorry, now I get what you are saying. Your trying to discredit the use of training with a power meter.


    No I'm discrediting those who disparage the use of a power meter and heart rate.

    You see when I see my power:heart rate ratio has improved at powers well below FTP, it is a sure sign my FTP has also increased. It tells me I have improved long before my next 20 minute test.
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 931
    Stalin wrote:
    markwb79 wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    markwb79 wrote:
    I dont understand the question.

    As my FTP has increased, my heart rate at FTP has stayed relatively the same.

    So your power:heart rate has improved.

    You see if heart rate was irrelevant there should be people who have improved their FTP without improving their power:heart rate ratio or their sustainable heart rate at FTP.

    My maximum sustainable heart rate over 20 minutes to an hour is 163bpm, and this has not changed in over 30 years. My maximum heart rate is now only 174 bpm - about 20 years ago it was 179bpm - no matter how hard I push myself I can't sustain anything over 163 bpm. So the only way I can improve my sustainable power is to increase my power:heart rate ratio.

    I've been trying for the last 6 months to make an improvement in my 20 minute power without improving power:heart rate ratio but every time I've improved my average power over 20 minutes my average heart rate has failed to increase.
    In fact my power:heart rate ratio keeps improving even at powers below FTP.

    Sorry, now I get what you are saying. Your trying to discredit the use of training with a power meter.


    No I'm discrediting those who disparage the use of a power meter and heart rate.

    You see when I see my power:heart rate ratio has improved at powers well below FTP, it is a sure sign my FTP has also increased. It tells me I have improved long before my next 20 minute test.

    But could you not do that with only power as well?
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    I've been happy enough to see my power increase on my century training rides. I'm not sure though if that's my endurance improving or my FTP (or how much the two are connected). If I'm being critical, the people who understand this best aren't the most able to explain it.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Team4LukeTeam4Luke Posts: 597
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?

    Yes.
    It's also very much about how you deliver what available power you have. If your medium to highly trained just below your racing hr/threshold power, then you will become more smooth and controlled at riding/racing at high intensities enabling a strict control of your output with fewer dips and spikes either side (losing time and going into the red zone wasting effort), your breathing will be more relaxed and constant, smoother peddalling and generally good positional hold on the bike/less body movement. It requires large blocks of sub race endurance efforts at extremely controlled hr/power.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    Team4Luke wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?

    Yes.
    It's also very much about how you deliver what available power you have. If your medium to highly trained just below your racing hr/threshold power, then you will become more smooth and controlled at riding/racing at high intensities enabling a strict control of your output with fewer dips and spikes either side (losing time and going into the red zone wasting effort), your breathing will be more relaxed and constant, smoother peddalling and generally good positional hold on the bike/less body movement. It requires large blocks of sub race endurance efforts at extremely controlled hr/power.

    Sorry not with you. I agree you can go faster by using your power intelligently and pacing well and conserving energy etc etc, but how can you increase functional threshold power without increasing sustainable heart rate or power:heart rate ratio?
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 931
    Stalin wrote:
    Team4Luke wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?

    Yes.
    It's also very much about how you deliver what available power you have. If your medium to highly trained just below your racing hr/threshold power, then you will become more smooth and controlled at riding/racing at high intensities enabling a strict control of your output with fewer dips and spikes either side (losing time and going into the red zone wasting effort), your breathing will be more relaxed and constant, smoother peddalling and generally good positional hold on the bike/less body movement. It requires large blocks of sub race endurance efforts at extremely controlled hr/power.

    Sorry not with you. I agree you can go faster by using your power intelligently and pacing well and conserving energy etc etc, but how can you increase functional threshold power without increasing sustainable heart rate or power:heart rate ratio?

    Well no one else is going to say it....

    Arent you Trev the Troll?
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,012
    markwb79 wrote:
    Well no one else is going to say it....

    Arent you Trev the Troll?

    He is - and he's back on his fave subjects - power and HR.
  • Why do you keep changing your user name Trevor?
    "You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    Imposter wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    So your power:heart rate has improved.

    You see if heart rate was irrelevant there should be people who have improved their FTP without improving their power:heart rate ratio or their sustainable heart rate at FTP.

    You need to stop making things up.


    Do you believe it is possible to improve FTP without improving power:heart rate ratio or sustainable heart rate?

    Please explain how.
  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?
    Has anyone ever said so, or said unreservedly that HR was irrelevant? If so, please show us.

    I would expect FTP and average power:HR to be correlated. I prefer to use more reliable and consistent measures. Some may not have that option (maybe you? it feels like we have discussed this before?..)
    Why do you keep changing your user name Trevor?
    So he can pretend that he's being repeatedly bullied and banned from the forums. We should actually feel sorry for him, but not for the reason he would like.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    Stalin wrote:
    Do you believe it is possible to improve FTP without improving power:heart rate ratio or sustainable heart rate?

    You can't improve FTP without improving power:height ratio either...
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?
    Has anyone ever said so, or said unreservedly that HR was irrelevant? If so, please show us.
    .

    Andrew Coggan, "If you know your power, then at best heart rate is redundant, but at worst it is misleading."

    Here is just one example he says it often.

    http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2972180;
  • dzp1dzp1 Posts: 54
    If I go out and train short and hard today, my power:hr tomorrow will be much higher, because my blood plasma volume will be higher, red cell count might go up a little bit, my blood vessels will be opened up and muscle glycogen will be fully primed, and ... , so my heart rate will be less for a given power. Narrr who gives a toss what the adaptations are - thats what happens - we don't need to know why do we ?

    Therefore while power:hr is ok as a general long term indicator that ftp might have moved, its not a measure of fitness especially at the level of individual sessions and you have to seriously consider what training you've done in the past few days when looking at the HR of a single session.

    However Trev's right that a general trending of power:hr across several training blocks is probably an indicator that you've got fitter. But its hardly as much use as knowing your FTP's gone up. I use it as an indicator that ftp MIGHT have gone up - then I can decide whether to test or just take a judgement call on what my ftp might be.

    Whereas FTP certainly is a good measure of how well you will perform in a race, which kind of relates well to how fit you are ;)

    Time to move on trev, broken record here buddy :)
  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Stalin wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?
    Has anyone ever said so, or said unreservedly that HR was irrelevant? If so, please show us.
    .

    Andrew Coggan, "If you know your power, then at best heart rate is redundant, but at worst it is misleading."

    Here is just one example he says it often.

    http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2972180;
    Try again.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    Is it possible to improve FTP without improving power : heart rate ratio or increasing sustainable heart rate?
    Has anyone ever said so, or said unreservedly that HR was irrelevant? If so, please show us.
    .

    Andrew Coggan, "If you know your power, then at best heart rate is redundant, but at worst it is misleading."

    Here is just one example he says it often.

    http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2972180;
    Try again.

    Tom, you need to try again, heart rate is not redundant or misleading even if you do know your power.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    edited March 2014
    dzp1 wrote:
    If I go out and train short and hard today, my power:hr tomorrow will be much higher, because my blood plasma volume will be higher, red cell count might go up a little bit, my blood vessels will be opened up and muscle glycogen will be fully primed, and ... , so my heart rate will be less for a given power. Narrr who gives a toss what the adaptations are - thats what happens - we don't need to know why do we ?

    Therefore while power:hr is ok as a general long term indicator that ftp might have moved, its not a measure of fitness especially at the level of individual sessions and you have to seriously consider what training you've done in the past few days when looking at the HR of a single session.

    However Trev's right that a general trending of power:hr across several training blocks is probably an indicator that you've got fitter. But its hardly as much use as knowing your FTP's gone up. I use it as an indicator that ftp MIGHT have gone up - then I can decide whether to test or just take a judgement call on what my ftp might be.

    Whereas FTP certainly is a good measure of how well you will perform in a race, which kind of relates well to how fit you are ;)

    Time to move on trev, broken record here buddy :)


    Exactly what I use heart rate:power ratio for, it is a good indicator of when an FTP test might be a good idea. It is also very useful for a coach to see progress between tests, and useful in circumstances where people may not want to do an FTP test. It is also good data to keep track of so you can compare progress this year with past years. The trend in power:heart rate ratio lets you know where your fitness is going before your next FTP test.

    Using Power:Heart rate ratio I can predict my Max 20 min power to within 5 watts.


    Thanks for your constructive post, but I will move on when I want.
  • dzp1dzp1 Posts: 54
    A good coach would probably already know that you're progressing without even seeing HR data or FTP tests, provided the feedback they get about how you felt etc is complete and accurate.

    Instead of leaving why don't you (if you have a genuine interest in this stuff) dig deeper into this whole training lark ? Move on from power and heart rate and coggan/simmons bashing and start looking at the adaptations in detail and what kind of training elicits those adaptations ? Its really quite interesting, and having it bubble up on forums every now and again can provide some good sanity checks against some of the rubbish you find on pubmed etc. Its only because you keep posting the same old stuff that puts people off.
  • It will be obvious if you are able to sustain a higher power output during efforts. Doesn't take long to work that out.

    It matters little what your HR does, as all that matters is how much power you can sustain over durations of relevance.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    dzp1 wrote:
    A good coach would probably already know that you're progressing without even seeing HR data or FTP tests, provided the feedback they get about how you felt etc is complete and accurate.

    Instead of leaving why don't you (if you have a genuine interest in this stuff) dig deeper into this whole training lark ? Move on from power and heart rate and coggan/simmons bashing and start looking at the adaptations in detail and what kind of training elicits those adaptations ? Its really quite interesting, and having it bubble up on forums every now and again can provide some good sanity checks against some of the rubbish you find on pubmed etc. Its only because you keep posting the same old stuff that puts people off.

    A good coach knows damn well that the feedback you get back from some people is incomplete and inaccurate. In fact most people usually fail to give complete and accurate feedback some of the time and often kid themselves as much as they kid others. This is one reason why seeing heart rate alongside power is so important.

    I have looked into training, in more sports than just cycling, it is because I have done and coached other sports that I know how useful heart rate alongside power is. I have a very genuine interest in this stuff and I resent your insinuation I don't, just as I resent being banned, called a troll or other names, or the mods altering or removing my posts.


    Now I'm off.
  • Stalin wrote:
    Now I'm off.

    Is this a flounce?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • markwb79markwb79 Posts: 931
    Stalin wrote:
    dzp1 wrote:
    If I go out and train short and hard today, my power:hr tomorrow will be much higher, because my blood plasma volume will be higher, red cell count might go up a little bit, my blood vessels will be opened up and muscle glycogen will be fully primed, and ... , so my heart rate will be less for a given power. Narrr who gives a toss what the adaptations are - thats what happens - we don't need to know why do we ?

    Therefore while power:hr is ok as a general long term indicator that ftp might have moved, its not a measure of fitness especially at the level of individual sessions and you have to seriously consider what training you've done in the past few days when looking at the HR of a single session.

    However Trev's right that a general trending of power:hr across several training blocks is probably an indicator that you've got fitter. But its hardly as much use as knowing your FTP's gone up. I use it as an indicator that ftp MIGHT have gone up - then I can decide whether to test or just take a judgement call on what my ftp might be.

    Whereas FTP certainly is a good measure of how well you will perform in a race, which kind of relates well to how fit you are ;)

    Time to move on trev, broken record here buddy :)


    Exactly what I use heart rate:power ratio for, it is a good indicator of when an FTP test might be a good idea. It is also very useful for a coach to see progress between tests, and useful in circumstances where people may not want to do an FTP test. It is also good data to keep track of so you can compare progress this year with past years. The trend in power:heart rate ratio lets you know where your fitness is going before your next FTP test.

    Using Power:Heart rate ratio I can predict my Max 20 min power to within 5 watts.


    Thanks for your constructive post, but I will move on when I want.

    How valid is this though? Doesnt your heart rate change as you get older?

    Surely you are misleading yourself by looking at this?
    Scott Addict 2011
    Giant TCR 2012
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    Stalin wrote:
    Now I'm off.

    Is this a flounce?


    For that remark I'm going to make a few more posts.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    edited March 2014
    It will be obvious if you are able to sustain a higher power output during efforts. Doesn't take long to work that out.

    It matters little what your HR does, as all that matters is how much power you can sustain over durations of relevance.


    The problem with your approach is you need a maximum effort over each duration, and if you are coaching you need to know how hard people are trying.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    markwb79 wrote:
    Stalin wrote:
    dzp1 wrote:
    If I go out and train short and hard today, my power:hr tomorrow will be much higher, because my blood plasma volume will be higher, red cell count might go up a little bit, my blood vessels will be opened up and muscle glycogen will be fully primed, and ... , so my heart rate will be less for a given power. Narrr who gives a toss what the adaptations are - thats what happens - we don't need to know why do we ?

    Therefore while power:hr is ok as a general long term indicator that ftp might have moved, its not a measure of fitness especially at the level of individual sessions and you have to seriously consider what training you've done in the past few days when looking at the HR of a single session.

    However Trev's right that a general trending of power:hr across several training blocks is probably an indicator that you've got fitter. But its hardly as much use as knowing your FTP's gone up. I use it as an indicator that ftp MIGHT have gone up - then I can decide whether to test or just take a judgement call on what my ftp might be.

    Whereas FTP certainly is a good measure of how well you will perform in a race, which kind of relates well to how fit you are ;)

    Time to move on trev, broken record here buddy :)


    Exactly what I use heart rate:power ratio for, it is a good indicator of when an FTP test might be a good idea. It is also very useful for a coach to see progress between tests, and useful in circumstances where people may not want to do an FTP test. It is also good data to keep track of so you can compare progress this year with past years. The trend in power:heart rate ratio lets you know where your fitness is going before your next FTP test.

    Using Power:Heart rate ratio I can predict my Max 20 min power to within 5 watts.


    Thanks for your constructive post, but I will move on when I want.

    How valid is this though? Doesnt your heart rate change as you get older?

    Surely you are misleading yourself by looking at this?


    Max heart rate declines very slowly with age, threshold heart rate hardly declines at all. So no, and if you do see change, then you have actionable intelligence.
  • StalinStalin Posts: 208
    Stalin wrote:
    Now I'm off.

    Is this a flounce?


    See what you get if you insult me.
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