Ukraine

thegreatdivide

Southgate wrote:

Goodwin's Law is the lighthearted truism that most internet discussions usually end with one commenter losing his cool and comparing another to a Nazi, e.g. "so you think you have the right to order me to use mudguards on a winter club run, you're no better than a Nazi!"

Goodwin's Law doesn't apply when you are talking about actual self-proclaimed neo-Nazis with swastikas and street gangs, who idolise Adolf Hitler and now control key ministries in a European government. That's not an internet joke and it shouldn't be trivialised. You're 43, you're old enough to understand the difference.

That's some Olympic standard patronising in your posts. Chapeau!

ukiboy

Southgate - you must obviously be an apologist for the communist/soviet/Russian regimes. Anyone who knows their history can tell you that there was no difference between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia; both were truly brutal regimes who oppressed and murdered millions. Both were hell bent on creating their own empires and brutally supressing any patriotic sentiment in countries that they overran. As I recall, there is the 'small' matter of the Holodomor, the man made famine orchestrated by Stalin to wipe out millions of native Ukrainians.
If we're talking pure head counts the Soviets, during their 70 odd year dictatorship killed more people than the Nazi's.
Oh, and if you're still not convinced that the two regimes were so similar don't forget their convenient little 'arrangement', the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Hmmm... Nazis, Soviets; same thing ultimately.

ukiboy

Southgate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

^ I too have wondered about this, it is difficult to know the truth and the extent of Nazism in Ukraine, our media doesn't always portray the whole story, maybe they cant.

Well, they're playing it down because the West helped engineer the coup that toppled the elected president.

Bottom line is that if you:

1. renege on an agreement for reforms
2. then go on to overthrow the government and constitution
3. then appoint Nazis to key positions in the coup regime
4. then ban all minority languages thereby disenfranchising half the population

You can't seriously expect that Russia is going to sit back and do nothing to protect its interests and the interests of ethnic Russians right on its own borders.

The government of the Crimea wants the Russians there, and the population will no doubt vote in overwhelming numbers for leaving the Ukraine in the forthcoming referendum. Now the USA and the EU are crying crocodile tears over the probable disintegration of the Ukraine, and blaming Putin for responding to the West's meddling.

Well, they should have thought of that before they started fermenting chaos, organising a coup, and backing Nazis.

Just re read your post Southgate, wow, you really having been sucking hard on the RT propaganda bong!
Easy to be an arm chair commentator on matters far from home that you know nothing about when you're safely sat in Blighty - probably THE most democratic, tolerant and liberal country on Earth. You'd not have that luxury if you were in downtown Moscow and you fancied taking a verbal pop at the current (fascist) Putin regime :shock:

pliptrot

We in the West are manipulated, controlled, persecuted and indoctrinated just as much as anyone in the former Soviet block. It's a lot more subtle and sophisticated here, but it happens just the same; just as much. To deny this is to misunderstand the role of every military and every police; to suppress and subjugate the poor (the "masses") in the service of the rich and powerful. To think otherwise is to be bewilderingly naive. The situation in the Ukraine will be resolved according to who's interests are best served - as all wars have been. No nation actually believes it can win a war anymore, and those that have have fought them and learned the lessons of conflict (invariably the losers) would prefer any other option. Hence the EU, which has prevented Europe tearing itself apart for all living memory (more or less), and hence why the lunatics go after other targets (read: lunatics; Thatcher; Bush; Blair: then: Argentina; Iraq; Afghanistan: and countless more despots and victims). Churchill probably would have had at the throats of the Russians about 70 years ago if he'd only drank a little more.......Who will prosper from a fight in the Ukraine? Exactly.

ukiboy

So in effect you are saying 'might is right' yes? That's quite a depressing conclusion and it basically says who ever holds the biggest stick gets to say what goes.. Not really the way it should be.

ukiboy

In any case, 'we' in the west were never as indoctrinated as those in the soviet block; the main difference being that dissent in the west wouldn't cause the dissenter too much trouble whereas if a person in the Soviet Union spoke their mind it usually would lead to a spell in the gulag at best or a bullet at worst..

pliptrot

ukiboy,
ukiboy,

you miss what I am driving at. We in the west have always been controlled and indcotrinated as anyone else. The control was sufficiently sophisticated to allow capitalism - which benefits far, far fewer than even corrupt communism - to triumph. That's why poverty is increasing everywhere. Note that word - everywhere. The UK may still cling to our ideas of unparalleled tolerance and decency, but every day we are more like America - where the 3 strikes and you're out rule allow people to be imprisoned for 30 years for stealing pizza (3 times). Is there any moral or decent argument to allow us not be repulsed by this?

Southgate

ukiboy

You topic-change and pepper your numerous posts with asinine assertions and petty personal attacks, but nowhere do you actually address the points I made. You proclaim that I live in the liberal country on Earth, yet you seek, in the most illiberal way, to disqualify my critical opinion on the very same grounds! Bizarre.

"You live in Britain.. you know nothing... you're an apologist... you are sucking on propaganda... etc etc" is not an argument.

Try making an argument.

ukiboy

My only argument is this: Russia didn't like what was happening in Ukraine (a former colony) and so decided to invade militarily and escalate the situation.
There can be no excuse for its use of force. The Ukrainians have called for dialogue with Russia, but Russia answers only with military sabre rattling and I fear it is just a matter of time before they start loosing off rounds...
Nice chap that Putin :shock:

Southgate

^ Unsurprising that they don't like what was happening in the Ukraine, no? A Western backed coup, eight cabinet posts given to neo-Nazis including deputy PM, defence and public prosecutor, the banning of Russian as an official language, street gangs with swastikas patrolling Kiev and other cities, and an effective declaration of ethnic cleansing on half the population, most of whom are ethnic Russians.

What's to like?

The Crimean parliament wants the Russians there to protect their citizens, so it's a bit of a stretch to call this an invasion.

There will be a referendum on declaring independence from Ukraine. Do the Crimean people not have the right to decide their own status, i.e. independence, join Russia, or declare loyalty to the Kiev coup-regime and its Nazi ministers?

ukiboy

Does 'southgate' mean you reside in Southgate? If so, I'd like to invite you out for a drink 'southgate'. I will buy the beer and we can sit across a pub table and have a chat because I fear that you really have no idea when it comes to the situation in Ukraine. Take the tube (central line) to Holland Park, walk to the statue of St Volodymyr (he was the ruler in Ukraine in 988 who established Christianity in Ukraine) and check out the shrine to the innocent and peaceful people who lost their lives at the hands of snipers. These were people who were protesting against a criminal and corrupt regime. Yanukovich siphoned off MILLIONS of dollars from his own people to feather his own nest. The average Ukrainian bloke or girl in the street was protesting against this as they just want to live in a fair, just and democratic society. not too much to ask is it? And are they Nazis? Are they heck! Come on Southgate, meet up with me, i'll buy you a beer or 2 or 3, i'll chat to you and i'll take you to Holland Park and then you can come to your own conclusions my friend

Frank the tank

pliptrot wrote:

We in the West are manipulated, controlled, persecuted and indoctrinated just as much as anyone in the former Soviet block. It's a lot more subtle and sophisticated here, but it happens just the same; just as much. To deny this is to misunderstand the role of every military and every police; to suppress and subjugate the poor (the "masses") in the service of the rich and powerful. To think otherwise is to be bewilderingly naive. The situation in the Ukraine will be resolved according to who's interests are best served - as all wars have been. No nation actually believes it can win a war anymore, and those that have have fought them and learned the lessons of conflict (invariably the losers) would prefer any other option. Hence the EU, which has prevented Europe tearing itself apart for all living memory (more or less), and hence why the lunatics go after other targets (read: lunatics; Thatcher; Bush; Blair: then: Argentina; Iraq; Afghanistan: and countless more despots and victims). Churchill probably would have had at the throats of the Russians about 70 years ago if he'd only drank a little more.......Who will prosper from a fight in the Ukraine? Exactly.

Bang on the money mate.

Wish I was articulate enough to have posted that.

Southgate

ukiboy

Thanks for the offer, but if I had a beer with everyone I had a row with on the interwebs, I'd be an alcoholic.

No doubt Yanukovich was corrupt. Quite unlike Timoshenko, the poster girl of the coup. What's her nickname again? The 'Gas Princess'. That's right, isn't it? Wonder how she made all her millions. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Timoshenko went into electoral alliance with neo-Nazis, and lost an election. Now she and her cohorts are in power, courtesy of a coup. Eight ministries have been handed to neo-Nazi parties. Fact.

I don't like corruption from whichever side it oozes.

I like neo-Nazis even less.

A government that has come to power by virtue of street-muscle and whose very first act is to disenfranchise half the population by outlawing minority languages is asking for trouble, looking for trouble, virtually begging for trouble.

They really shouldn't whine when they get it.

ballysmate

pliptrot wrote:

We in the West are manipulated, controlled, persecuted and indoctrinated just as much as anyone in the former Soviet block. It's a lot more subtle and sophisticated here, but it happens just the same; just as much. To deny this is to misunderstand the role of every military and every police; to suppress and subjugate the poor (the "masses") in the service of the rich and powerful. To think otherwise is to be bewilderingly naive. The situation in the Ukraine will be resolved according to who's interests are best served - as all wars have been. No nation actually believes it can win a war anymore, and those that have have fought them and learned the lessons of conflict (invariably the losers) would prefer any other option. Hence the EU, which has prevented Europe tearing itself apart for all living memory (more or less), and hence why the lunatics go after other targets (read: lunatics; Thatcher; Bush; Blair: then: Argentina; Iraq; Afghanistan: and countless more despots and victims). Churchill probably would have had at the throats of the Russians about 70 years ago if he'd only drank a little more.......Who will prosper from a fight in the Ukraine? Exactly.

Well Frank must be more worldly wise than I, for I am bewilderingly naive.
I haven't noticed NapD and his mates around here trying to suppress and subjugate and I suppose the military haven't got around these parts yet. But thanks for the warning, I will keep an eye open for them.
I can assure you that I don't fall into the rich and powerful category.

finchy

ukiboy wrote:

Does 'southgate' mean you reside in Southgate? If so, I'd like to invite you out for a drink 'southgate'. I will buy the beer and we can sit across a pub table and have a chat because I fear that you really have no idea when it comes to the situation in Ukraine. Take the tube (central line) to Holland Park, walk to the statue of St Volodymyr (he was the ruler in Ukraine in 988 who established Christianity in Ukraine) and check out the shrine to the innocent and peaceful people who lost their lives at the hands of snipers. These were people who were protesting against a criminal and corrupt regime. Yanukovich siphoned off MILLIONS of dollars from his own people to feather his own nest. The average Ukrainian bloke or girl in the street was protesting against this as they just want to live in a fair, just and democratic society. not too much to ask is it? And are they Nazis? Are they heck! Come on Southgate, meet up with me, i'll buy you a beer or 2 or 3, i'll chat to you and i'll take you to Holland Park and then you can come to your own conclusions my friend

Nobody has said that everyone protesting against the old government was a Nazi. Just some of them. And they now hold some positions of power.

Southgate

This is the logo of Svoboda, which has five cabinet seats in the Ukrainian coup regime. According to Wikipedia, the name of the party was an intentional reference to the Nazi Party in Germany.



Another neo-Nazi group, the 'Right Sector', is generally accepted to have been the most effective force in the so-called Ukrainian revolution. It's social network pages, says Wikipedia, contains extensive neo-Nazi imagery. They describe themselves as "nationalist, defending the values of white, Christian Europe against the loss of the nation and deregionalization."

The Right Sector is now the largest group on the right, patrolling the streets armed with baseball bats and, as seen in a recent Newsnight investigation, also guns.

These groups are now in the governmental driving seat. Whatever legitimacy the anti-Yanukovych protests may once have had was lost forever following the alliance with neo-Nazis and street thugs.

I repeat: You cannot disenfranchise half the population and appoint ethic-supremacists to cleanse the country and expect that there will not be a reaction. It is politically illogical.

RDW

There used to be a group in the UK with a similar logo



They always claimed they weren't fascists, they just wanted to make the trains run on time.

thegreatdivide

RDW wrote:

There used to be a group in the UK with a similar logo



They always claimed they weren't fascists, they just wanted to make the trains run on time.

bompington

thegreatdivide wrote:

RDW wrote:

There used to be a group in the UK with a similar logo



They always claimed they weren't fascists, they just wanted to make the trains run on time.

If the distinguishing mark of fascists is to make the trains run on time, then clearly we can absolve BR of that charge at least.

cornerblock

Southgate wrote:

Thanks for the offer, but if I had a beer with everyone I had a row with on the interwebs, I'd be an alcoholic.

Does VTech ride a Storck?

Southgate

bompington wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

RDW wrote:

There used to be a group in the UK with a similar logo



They always claimed they weren't fascists, they just wanted to make the trains run on time.

If the distinguishing mark of fascists is to make the trains run on time, then clearly we can absolve BR of that charge at least.

BR: Worse than fascists!

RedWheels

hahha Love the BR logo, isn't the saying that the one 'good' thing Benito Mussolini did was to make the trains run on time?

Southgate

^ Although actually he didn't even do that!

RDW

An elite uniformed propaganda unit distributes provocative material to members of an opposition column: