Ukraine

BelgianBeerGeek

Team47b's friend raises some interesting points. Ukrainian independence is often seen as a western-Ukrainian thing, and there was a vicious guerilla war fought throughout WW2 and it's aftermath to fight for independence, with the Soviets and Polish getting involved. There may be still some bad blood about the whole thing - let's hope for everyone's sake this is resolved peacefully.

ukiboy

nathancom wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Wow - powerful sentiments, in the west we are so encapsulated in our own stability and relatively luxurious lifestyle we really do see other peoples problems in black and white far to often.

well we are fed with an unending stream of anti Russian propaganda from all parts of the press. It is hardly a surprise that, as individuals, we instinctively think ill of Russia (equally of China and other non Western countries). The propaganda really is incessant and extreme.

I don't think people instinctively think ill of Russia, it's rather the corrupt, brutal and fascist regime that we think ill of.
Ask Peter Tatchell what he thinks of the Russian regime, or journalists who dare question Putin. They all seem to come to considerable grief..

nathancom

ukiboy wrote:

nathancom wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Wow - powerful sentiments, in the west we are so encapsulated in our own stability and relatively luxurious lifestyle we really do see other peoples problems in black and white far to often.

well we are fed with an unending stream of anti Russian propaganda from all parts of the press. It is hardly a surprise that, as individuals, we instinctively think ill of Russia (equally of China and other non Western countries). The propaganda really is incessant and extreme.

I don't think people instinctively think ill of Russia, it's rather the corrupt, brutal and fascist regime that we think ill of.
Ask Peter Tatchell what he thinks of the Russian regime, or journalists who dare question Putin. They all seem to come to considerable grief..

You could quite easily find people expressing similar sentiments about USA with equally good cause, but since we are't fed anti American propaganda on a regular basis we mostly ignore them. It is a type of confirmation bias. I think your use of the words: corrupt, brutal and fascist shows that this propaganda works. Certainly Russian politics is corrupt but then show me a nation with an unblemished political elite. I wouldn't mind hearing the justification for calling the current Russian regime brutal and fascist. It seems to me that you are affected by the constant propaganda against Russia to use such extreme terms.

bompington

nathancom wrote:

ukiboy wrote:

nathancom wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Wow - powerful sentiments, in the west we are so encapsulated in our own stability and relatively luxurious lifestyle we really do see other peoples problems in black and white far to often.

well we are fed with an unending stream of anti Russian propaganda from all parts of the press. It is hardly a surprise that, as individuals, we instinctively think ill of Russia (equally of China and other non Western countries). The propaganda really is incessant and extreme.

I don't think people instinctively think ill of Russia, it's rather the corrupt, brutal and fascist regime that we think ill of.
Ask Peter Tatchell what he thinks of the Russian regime, or journalists who dare question Putin. They all seem to come to considerable grief..

You could quite easily find people expressing similar sentiments about USA with equally good cause, but since we are't fed anti American propaganda on a regular basis we mostly ignore them. It is a type of confirmation bias. I think your use of the words: corrupt, brutal and fascist shows that this propaganda works. Certainly Russian politics is corrupt but then show me a nation with an unblemished political elite. I wouldn't mind hearing the justification for calling the current Russian regime brutal and fascist. It seems to me that you are affected by the constant propaganda against Russia to use such extreme terms.

Ah, the old "they're all the same really" argument. Never ceases to amaze me how many people there are who are queuing up to diss the system at home (that gives them the freedom and prosperity to e.g. sit around posting on the internet) while painting dictatorial regimes abroad in the rosiest possible light.

EDIT: and as for "not fed anti-american propaganda" - well, maybe not by the government or the majority of the press, but the anti-american cultural bias of the liberal elite is quite prevalent in society.

nathancom

bompington wrote:

nathancom wrote:

ukiboy wrote:

nathancom wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Wow - powerful sentiments, in the west we are so encapsulated in our own stability and relatively luxurious lifestyle we really do see other peoples problems in black and white far to often.

well we are fed with an unending stream of anti Russian propaganda from all parts of the press. It is hardly a surprise that, as individuals, we instinctively think ill of Russia (equally of China and other non Western countries). The propaganda really is incessant and extreme.

I don't think people instinctively think ill of Russia, it's rather the corrupt, brutal and fascist regime that we think ill of.
Ask Peter Tatchell what he thinks of the Russian regime, or journalists who dare question Putin. They all seem to come to considerable grief..

You could quite easily find people expressing similar sentiments about USA with equally good cause, but since we are't fed anti American propaganda on a regular basis we mostly ignore them. It is a type of confirmation bias. I think your use of the words: corrupt, brutal and fascist shows that this propaganda works. Certainly Russian politics is corrupt but then show me a nation with an unblemished political elite. I wouldn't mind hearing the justification for calling the current Russian regime brutal and fascist. It seems to me that you are affected by the constant propaganda against Russia to use such extreme terms.

Ah, the old "they're all the same really" argument. Never ceases to amaze me how many people there are who are queuing up to diss the system at home (that gives them the freedom and prosperity to e.g. sit around posting on the internet) while painting dictatorial regimes abroad in the rosiest possible light.

EDIT: and as for "not fed anti-american propaganda" - well, maybe not by the government or the majority of the press, but the anti-american cultural bias of the liberal elite is quite prevalent in society.

Yes, because the internet only exists in the West, and Russians haven't learnt to type yet.

I am not trying to "diss" the system at home, I only object to Russia or China, or whichever country we are supposed to hate/fear today, being described as fascist or backwards or oppressive or brutal or illiberal as though we have a monopoly on how to live and how to organise a society.

We object when others try and protect and project their interests when we do the same or worse. This is the definition of hypocrisy. I know, let's boycott the paralympics.

bompington

I think there is enough pretty solid evidence out there that Russia is fascist,backwards,oppressive, brutal and illiberal, or at least significantly more of all of these things than either the US or the UK. What there is no real evidence for is what appears to be your underlying assumption - that all countries are the same really, and that if we think ill of Russia it's just because we're poor, ignorant, manipulated putty in the hands of the lying master propagandists of the western state.

RedWheels

Ah, the old "they're all the same really" argument. Never ceases to amaze me how many people there are who are queuing up to diss the system at home (that gives them the freedom and prosperity to e.g. sit around posting on the internet) while painting dictatorial regimes abroad in the rosiest possible light.

^
This argument never ceases to amaze me.

The 'principle' of liberal democracy is one of checks and balances where the voters/general public/media etc hold to account the actions of the government, which needs to be checked constantly because of the whole power corrupts line.
If you had an understanding of the liberal philosophers who designed and dreamt up the system that gives us 'freedom and prosperity' then you would understand that the DUTY of a individual is to permanently challenge and criticise ones government to protect it from the excesses that power leads to, or in essence 'diss' it, as you so eloquently put it.

if you believe in liberty in the US/UK sense of the term, then you should be spending your time criticising your own government rather then appeasing your jingoistic tendencies by saying 'our system is better'

a quote from Benji

''Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety''

now look at our terror laws, wars etc. we have committed for 'defence' and 'safety'.

nathancom

bompington wrote:

I think there is enough pretty solid evidence out there that Russia is fascist,backwards,oppressive, brutal and illiberal, or at least significantly more of all of these things than either the US or the UK. What there is no real evidence for is what appears to be your underlying assumption - that all countries are the same really, and that if we think ill of Russia it's just because we're poor, ignorant, manipulated putty in the hands of the lying master propagandists of the western state.

I am sure Afghanis and Iraqis think US and UK are shining lights of freedom and peace and human rights, and thoroughly decent chaps who only want the best for the countries they invade for "humanitarian reasons".
I am sure Dr David Kelly's death was in no way suspicious.
I am sure you have lots of evidence for how terrible the Russian government is compared to US.
I am sure you have met lots of Russians who tell you how oppressive the government make their daily lives.
I am sure Jean Charles de Menezes was feeling great about our unfascist police as they shot him 7 times in the head.
I am sure no one in Britain has been arrested for peacefully protesting.
I am sure police evidence gathers haven't been following journalists around filming them.
I am sure police haven't been inflitrating and encouraging groups to criminal acts.

bompington

Bored of this argument now. I'm sure you could always move to Russia, or Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, if it's that bad here.

ukiboy

nathancom wrote:

bompington wrote:

I think there is enough pretty solid evidence out there that Russia is fascist,backwards,oppressive, brutal and illiberal, or at least significantly more of all of these things than either the US or the UK. What there is no real evidence for is what appears to be your underlying assumption - that all countries are the same really, and that if we think ill of Russia it's just because we're poor, ignorant, manipulated putty in the hands of the lying master propagandists of the western state.

I am sure Afghanis and Iraqis think US and UK are shining lights of freedom and peace and human rights, and thoroughly decent chaps who only want the best for the countries they invade for "humanitarian reasons".
I am sure Dr David Kelly's death was in no way suspicious.
I am sure you have lots of evidence for how terrible the Russian government is compared to US.
I am sure you have met lots of Russians who tell you how oppressive the government make their daily lives.
I am sure Jean Charles de Menezes was feeling great about our unfascist police as they shot him 7 times in the head.
I am sure no one in Britain has been arrested for peacefully protesting.
I am sure police evidence gathers haven't been following journalists around filming them.
I am sure police haven't been inflitrating and encouraging groups to criminal acts.

There is no doubt at all that the police in this country have screwed up royally on many an occasion. They have been corrupt, dishonest and downright nasty on occasion. But you can't even begin to compare a British bobby to the average Russian trooper. Having visited the former Soviet Union and more recently Russia and Ukraine, I can tell you that there is a gulf in policing standards.
The Russians are specialists in subterfuge, espionage and empire building. Look at poor old Litvinenko - pissed off Putin and ended up drinking a polonium 210 flavoured cup of tea with predictable results.. And his death was orchestrated by Russia, the murder occurring a stones throw from the USA embassy in London.

florerider

nathancom wrote:

bompington wrote:

I am sure you have lots of evidence for how terrible the Russian government is compared to US.
I am sure you have met lots of Russians who tell you how oppressive the government make their daily lives.

Since you ask, yes.

Have you not been there, or other Russian satellite states and talked to people?
Don't you have friends and colleagues who left for the west?
Never been spoken to quietly by the KGB, or any other "secret service" for that matter?
And yes, MI5 is a cup of tea comparison.

nathancom

florerider wrote:

nathancom wrote:

bompington wrote:

I am sure you have lots of evidence for how terrible the Russian government is compared to US.
I am sure you have met lots of Russians who tell you how oppressive the government make their daily lives.

Since you ask, yes.

Have you not been there, or other Russian satellite states and talked to people?
Don't you have friends and colleagues who left for the west?
Never been spoken to quietly by the KGB, or any other "secret service" for that matter?
And yes, MI5 is a cup of tea comparison.

The KGB hasn't existed in over 20 years.

florerider

nathancom wrote:

florerider wrote:

nathancom wrote:

bompington wrote:

I am sure you have lots of evidence for how terrible the Russian government is compared to US.
I am sure you have met lots of Russians who tell you how oppressive the government make their daily lives.

Since you ask, yes.

Have you not been there, or other Russian satellite states and talked to people?
Don't you have friends and colleagues who left for the west?
Never been spoken to quietly by the KGB, or any other "secret service" for that matter?
And yes, MI5 is a cup of tea comparison.

The KGB hasn't existed in over 20 years.

Call it the FSB (or FSS as some do) and no one knows who it is.

Did you know the Lubyanka is the tallest building in the world, it is the only building where you can see your way all the way to Siberia from the basement.

bompington

nathancom wrote:

The KGB hasn't existed in over 20 years.

Correct, they changed its name to FSB. Didn't change much else though, as Alexander Litvinenko wouldn't be able to tell you.

Southgate

If Scotland can have a referendum on independence, then why not the Crimea? If I were an ethnic Russian in the Ukraine, I would be absolutely delighted that Russia is protecting me from the coup regime in Kiev and their Nazi ministers. The elected president was overthrown with active support of the Western powers, so what legitimacy does this new regime have?

You do know that the Nazis have been given the Deputy PM, Public Prosecutor and Defence, amongst other ministries? We are talking full-on Nazis here, with all the associated insignia. Anyone who knows anything about wartime Ukrainian history will know that this isn't merely a costume drama not to be taken seriously.

In alliance with Adolf Hitler, the grandparents of these fascists were massacring Jews, Russian and other minorities. Today their descendants in Kiev have disenfranchised half the population by banning Russian and other minority languages, and have said that they stand for a "pure Ukraine". Masked Nazi thugs with guns are patrolling the streets with the full blessing of the new coup authorities. Would you want to live under such a regime if you were not part of the 'master race'?

mamba80

^ I too have wondered about this, it is difficult to know the truth and the extent of Nazism in Ukraine, our media does nt always portray the whole story, maybe they cant.

Putin was a high ranking KGB officer for 18years before turning his hand to politics, maybe the Met used his methods for guidance on their policing policies.

Southgate

mamba80 wrote:

^ I too have wondered about this, it is difficult to know the truth and the extent of Nazism in Ukraine, our media doesn't always portray the whole story, maybe they cant.

Well, they're playing it down because the West helped engineer the coup that toppled the elected president.

Bottom line is that if you:

1. renege on an agreement for reforms
2. then go on to overthrow the government and constitution
3. then appoint Nazis to key positions in the coup regime
4. then ban all minority languages thereby disenfranchising half the population

You can't seriously expect that Russia is going to sit back and do nothing to protect its interests and the interests of ethnic Russians right on its own borders.

The government of the Crimea wants the Russians there, and the population will no doubt vote in overwhelming numbers for leaving the Ukraine in the forthcoming referendum. Now the USA and the EU are crying crocodile tears over the probable disintegration of the Ukraine, and blaming Putin for responding to the West's meddling.

Well, they should have thought of that before they started fermenting chaos, organising a coup, and backing Nazis.

mamba80

I remember you are very passionate about these sort of things...Mandela springs to mind

But on this I agree with you, the Russians are painted out to be the bad guys here and they are far from innocent BUT Putin was right over Syria, terrible though it is and having listened to Russia Today in the states, where its presenter resigned on air, protesting over the lack of correct info given in western media and Russia today in particular, I think he may be right here as well, I doubt he wants another Chechnya on his southern borders.
The west should stop trying to expand NATO and the EU eastwards.

thegreatdivide

Who are these Nazis? The Nazi party was dissolved in 1945.

team47b

They are now called neo nazis or nazis for short

crumbschief

And they are now on the moon,or undead or both.

thegreatdivide

Are the still after Indiana Jones?

crumbschief

thegreatdivide wrote:

Are the still after Indiana Jones?

I'm sure the chase is still on lol.

mamba80

Very sad that you joke about a party that is far from dead and buried and in our parents or grandparents generation killed 6million plus jews, gays, the disabled and gypsies, among others.

but then again, that is how these parties come to power in the first place.

bompington

But the party that killed 7 million Ukrainians in the famine is still in power in Russia.

thegreatdivide

mamba80 wrote:

Very sad that you joke about a party that is far from dead and buried and in our parents or grandparents generation killed 6million plus jews, gays, the disabled and gypsies, among others.

but then again, that is how these parties come to power in the first place.

Get a grip.

thegreatdivide

bompington wrote:

But the party that killed 7 million Ukrainians in the famine is still in power in Russia.

The very same party that is trying eradicate/persecute its gay community via right wing thugs.

Pot kettle etc.

Southgate

You really shouldn't compare Russian laws on homosexuality (legal, but discriminated against - much as it was in Britain until fairly recently) to those of the Nazis. Russia is socially conservative. I don't agree with that, but they will change over time just as we did.

I think it's pretty worrying that it now appears to be OK or respectable for a European country to have key ministries such as defence and prosecutions in the hands of self-proclaimed Nazis. It might seem a bit of a larf to you (I'm guessing you are young and don't fully appreciate the impact of WW2), but concentration camps and the millions of dead are still living memories for some. Having racial supremacists in power (even if sharing power in one country) and their street gangs patrolling Kiev is no joke. Look at what the England football team had to endure when they played in the Ukraine, and it's far far worse now. Now imagine that you don't have private security and can't get on a plane home because you live there.

thegreatdivide

Southgate wrote:

You really shouldn't compare Russian laws on homosexuality (legal, but discriminated against - much as it was in Britain until fairly recently) to those of the Nazis. Russia is socially conservative. I don't agree with that, but they will change over time just as we did.

I think it's pretty worrying that it now appears to be OK or respectable for a European country to have key ministries such as defence and prosecutions in the hands of self-proclaimed Nazis. It might seem a bit of a larf to you (I'm guessing you are young and don't fully appreciate the impact of WW2), but concentration camps and the millions of dead are still living memories for some. Having racial supremacists in power (even if sharing power in one country) and their street gangs patrolling Kiev is no joke. Look at what the England football team had to endure when they played in the Ukraine, and it's far far worse now. Now imagine that you don't have private security and can't get on a plane home because you live there.

I'm in my 43rd year and I'm also calling Godwin's Law because this is getting all a bit...

Southgate

Goodwin's Law is the lighthearted truism that most internet discussions usually end with one commenter losing his cool and comparing another to a Nazi, e.g. "so you think you have the right to order me to use mudguards on a winter club run, you're no better than a Nazi!"

Goodwin's Law doesn't apply when you are talking about actual self-proclaimed neo-Nazis with swastikas and street gangs, who idolise Adolf Hitler and now control key ministries in a European government. That's not an internet joke and it shouldn't be trivialised. You're 43, you're old enough to understand the difference.