power at low or high speed

Team4Luke

Is there any data or available evidence to suggest there are different training effects at different speeds at the same power/output. For example what training adapatation takes place at say 15mph at X power and at say 22mph at X power, power being the same in both cases.

NANS295

Assuming no wind, a flat road and neglecting any losses in drivetrain efficiency. I don't think you could be at different speeds whilst outputting the same power. For instance if you select a lower gear your cadence would need to increase to maintain the same level of power output and hence your speed would actually remain unchanged. The only way it is possible maintain constant power output but at a reduced speed is to either cycle uphill or into a headwind.

imposter2.0

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

jibberjim

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Ride down a hill, change your aerodynamics.

Yes, there are differences in the inertial situation depending on the speed, many people find a difference in performance in the two, as to which produces training benefits - no-one really knows.

imposter2.0

jibberjim wrote:

Ride down a hill, change your aerodynamics.

Yes, obviously. The first reply covered that already.

chrisw12

OP to put your question in another way, what you're asking is, is there any training benefit to being motor paced/drafted. I don't know the answer but there's plenty of records of people using it as a training technique.

TakeTurns

No....

If anything, it'd be psychological. I.e, riding into a headwind.

buckles

Thinking about it differently...

If you were doing 300 watts motorpaced at 30mph vs 20mph on your own, your cadence could be either be higher (in the same gear thus you'd be exerting less force but pedaling much faster) or the same (in a higher gear, exerting the same amount of force) or, if it was practically possible, even lower (in an comedically high gear, exerting more force)

In each case it's not your speed that makes a difference to your legs but your cadence and muscular force exertion

buckles

Or think about it another way. Imagine being a passenger on a long distance train journey. You have your bike and your turbo and decide to ride for an hour at 250 watts, keeping your cadence to 90rpm.

The train speeds up to 70mph, thus your speed is 150mph. You're still doing 250 watts at 90rpm.

The train then slows down for a bit, crawling along at 20mph. Your speed is thus 20mph. You're still doing 250 watts at 90rpm. No difference.

buckles

You might find this interesting http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/climb ... -affected/

Team4Luke

jibberjim wrote:

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Yes, there are differences in the inertial situation depending on the speed, many people find a difference in performance in the two, as to which produces training benefits - no-one really knows.

agreed this is what I find, I'm looking at typical training session where you come across the typical winds in a ride, tough headwind for a long section then a side wind then a tailwind, power can be whatever your training at but speeds vary. Summer often does but not always brings calmer training days and improvement seems to come on much faster in these conditions. Dependant on rider strengths and weaknesses, for example if you are flat out muscular leg wise against the wind then, allow quality here to drop a little and ensure higher quality on the easier sections to push further the cardio system, than it could with leg power restricting reaching threshold or above or vice versa.
I don't think everyone is 50/50 here perhaps some are, if you have strong legs and more spare power then push the hard sections if other way around push the easier sections moreso.
So instead of maintaining the same effort for the whole session, bring in some specifity.

Team4Luke

TakeTurns wrote:

No....

If anything, it'd be psychological. I.e, riding into a headwind.

not if you have simply no more available leg power

imposter2.0

So, you're saying people can go faster for the same power with a tail wind? Hold the front page.....

Team4Luke

Buckles wrote:

You might find this interesting http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/climb ... -affected/

yes different firing motor pattens and stored kinetic energy as you move and slow. Thus can we put the same into the benefits of training at higher speeds than slower speeds, more effective training outcome from faster sections of your training than harder slower headwind ones.
Old skuul of thought has always been Speed Training and in fact this still happens today as mentioned motor pacing, don't bang your head again the wind, save a little and put it into the faster sections. I've never seen the point of training at speeds far away from race pace, better to train as near as possible or at and or above depending on duration.


When you’re time trialing, once you’re up to speed you’ve got a lot of energy in the system and as the pedals go around they’re merely topping up the energy required to sustain a fast pace. In a TT (high speed, flat road, high kinetic energy), the duration that your muscles have to fire is very small. You’re basically firing the muscle for a very short period of time every pedal stroke, but very quickly.

When you’re pedaling up a climb (low kinetic energy, traveling slowly, gravity holding you back), your legs impart force on the pedals for a much longer duration throughout the stroke, even though your cadence might the same as when TT’ing.

In short, your motor patterns are significantly different between time trialing and climbing.

ozzzyosborn206

Team4Luke wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Yes, there are differences in the inertial situation depending on the speed, many people find a difference in performance in the two, as to which produces training benefits - no-one really knows.

agreed this is what I find, I'm looking at typical training session where you come across the typical winds in a ride, tough headwind for a long section then a side wind then a tailwind, power can be whatever your training at but speeds vary. Summer often does but not always brings calmer training days and improvement seems to come on much faster in these conditions. Dependant on rider strengths and weaknesses, for example if you are flat out muscular leg wise against the wind then, allow quality here to drop a little and ensure higher quality on the easier sections to push further the cardio system, than it could with leg power restricting reaching threshold or above or vice versa.
I don't think everyone is 50/50 here perhaps some are, if you have strong legs and more spare power then push the hard sections if other way around push the easier sections moreso.
So instead of maintaining the same effort for the whole session, bring in some specifity.

you would never 'push the easier sections' more so than the harder sections ie headwinds and tailwinds because the increase in power and speed is not linear, if you pushed 300watts into a headwind then 250 watts with a tailwind you would cover the distance quicker than if you pushed 250watts into the head wind and 300 watts with the tailwind despite your average power being the same.

buckles

Team4Luke wrote:

Buckles wrote:

You might find this interesting http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/climb ... -affected/

yes different firing motor pattens and stored kinetic energy as you move and slow. Thus can we put the same into the benefits of training at higher speeds than slower speeds, more effective training outcome from faster sections of your training than harder slower headwind ones.
Old skuul of thought has always been Speed Training and in fact this still happens today as mentioned motor pacing, don't bang your head again the wind, save a little and put it into the faster sections. I've never seen the point of training at speeds far away from race pace, better to train as near as possible or at and or above depending on duration.

See the two messages I posted before that one. Speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to training your legs, it's cadence and force that cause adaptations.

Team4Luke

Imposter wrote:

So, you're saying people can go faster for the same power with a tail wind? Hold the front page.....

90mins tempo 278w ave

milese

In my simple mind I dont get the point of motorpacing.

Assuming an unlimited range of gears, surely x cadance @ y power is the same as x cadance @ y power irrespective of what gear you are or how fast you are going.

My thoughts have been,

1. someone else is pacing you so if done well it could give a consistant pace (but given hills and the lack of feel the moped rider will have of the exertion required getting it right must be very hard) Do you think the moped riders gets a bike computer showing riders HR / Watts? Doubt it in practice, probably just experience?

2. Specificy. The additional speed from the shelter from the wind better replicates what its like to sit in a peloton.

I saw Jonathon Tieran Locke getting motorpaced in full sky gear a few months back......

Team4Luke

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

Team4Luke wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Yes, there are differences in the inertial situation depending on the speed, many people find a difference in performance in the two, as to which produces training benefits - no-one really knows.

agreed this is what I find, I'm looking at typical training session where you come across the typical winds in a ride, tough headwind for a long section then a side wind then a tailwind, power can be whatever your training at but speeds vary. Summer often does but not always brings calmer training days and improvement seems to come on much faster in these conditions. Dependant on rider strengths and weaknesses, for example if you are flat out muscular leg wise against the wind then, allow quality here to drop a little and ensure higher quality on the easier sections to push further the cardio system, than it could with leg power restricting reaching threshold or above or vice versa.
I don't think everyone is 50/50 here perhaps some are, if you have strong legs and more spare power then push the hard sections if other way around push the easier sections moreso.
So instead of maintaining the same effort for the whole session, bring in some specifity.

you would never 'push the easier sections' more so than the harder sections ie headwinds and tailwinds because the increase in power and speed is not linear, if you pushed 300watts into a headwind then 250 watts with a tailwind you would cover the distance quicker than if you pushed 250watts into the head wind and 300 watts with the tailwind despite your average power being the same.

but only if your legs can suffer the extra effort (or have watts to spare) which is my point, easier sections if you have a superior cardio system this takes some stress off the legs allowing to go higher into threshold even above. Even flat out into a headwind I would be quite relaxed breathing wise, I can feel there is zero more in the legs but with a tailwind I can nail it much harder and go and hold threshold and above. Same for training or racing but am only talking about training here and not racing or pacing, ie the benefits if any training into or with a wind and the muscular firing of the fibres.

imposter2.0

Team4Luke wrote:

Imposter wrote:

So, you're saying people can go faster for the same power with a tail wind? Hold the front page.....

90mins tempo 278w ave

that's just some wiggly lines on a graph, mate - what's your point?

Team4Luke

Buckles wrote:

See the two messages I posted before that one. Speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to training your legs, it's cadence and force that cause adaptations.

that would imply we could all train at 10mph at of course the required wattage for race pace/pb by training at very slow speed, using high headwinds, a very heavy bike, a mountain bike, panniers on.
Making the jump from 10mph to 25mph at race pace would not happen or would it ?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Team4Luke wrote:

Is there any data or available evidence to suggest there are different training effects at different speeds at the same power/output. For example what training adapatation takes place at say 15mph at X power and at say 22mph at X power, power being the same in both cases.

That's just another variant of the training on flats vs hills at same power question.

The primary adaptations of riding at the same power output are metabolic in nature and there's essentially no difference due to how fast you happen to be riding.

What differences that do exist are the more nuanced neuromuscular variances, and you can inspect those by looking at a quadrant analysis of your pedal forces and pedal speeds.

IOW, you'll get better at what you train. That holds true for climbing, flat riding, headwinds, motorpacing, riding in groups etc etc.

Specificity rule. Who'd have thunk it?

buckles

Team4Luke wrote:

Buckles wrote:

See the two messages I posted before that one. Speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to training your legs, it's cadence and force that cause adaptations.

that would imply we could all train at 10mph at of course the required wattage for race pace/pb by training at very slow speed, using high headwinds, a very heavy bike, a mountain bike, panniers on.
Making the jump from 10mph to 25mph at race pace would not happen or would it ?

OK I've got you now, it's just the way you were putting it that was confusing the hell out of me. Thing is it's not just a matter of speed making the difference, it's the effect of the different ratio of resistance to kinetic energy as well. So I take back what I said, speed is relevant when power output is the same, training at higher speed causes different adaptations, however it's not simply because you're moving faster but because there is a lower ratio of resistance to kinetic energy which requires shorter and faster muscle contraction.

However this doesn't mean you shouldn't ride hard in low speed /high resistance situations such as hills or a headwind... it's not as if there are never headwinds or hills in races!

Team4Luke

Buckles wrote:

Team4Luke wrote:

Buckles wrote:

See the two messages I posted before that one. Speed is completely irrelevant when it comes to training your legs, it's cadence and force that cause adaptations.

that would imply we could all train at 10mph at of course the required wattage for race pace/pb by training at very slow speed, using high headwinds, a very heavy bike, a mountain bike, panniers on.
Making the jump from 10mph to 25mph at race pace would not happen or would it ?

OK I've got you now, it's just the way you were putting it that was confusing the hell out of me. Thing is it's not just a matter of speed making the difference, it's the effect of the different ratio of resistance to kinetic energy as well. So I take back what I said, speed is relevant when power output is the same, training at higher speed causes different adaptations, however it's not simply because you're moving faster but because there is a lower ratio of resistance to kinetic energy which requires shorter and faster muscle contraction.

However this doesn't mean you shouldn't ride hard in low speed /high resistance situations such as hills or a headwind... it's not as if there are never headwinds or hills in races!

ok thanks all.
Think I will do some experimenting with pushing it harder still on faster faster sections of a session than I would normally and maintain my usual effort on the harder ones, not to say could not reverse this entirely another day.
Yes always headwinds training or racing but in racing you are going much much faster than in training due to being on TT bike and all the other factors that go with that ( I don't use TT bike in training so my speed differential between training and racing is bigger than it could be) hence seems clear with me anyway the closer I train to race speeds then gains are noticeable and quick as opposed to slogging it on tough windy days.

phreak

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Surely climbing a mountain would apply? You would go slower but hopefully with the same power as you would achieve on the flat.

I understood the OP to be asking if that is physiologically the same.

imposter2.0

phreak wrote:

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Surely climbing a mountain would apply? You would go slower but hopefully with the same power as you would achieve on the flat.

I understood the OP to be asking if that is physiologically the same.

Already been covered..

Team4Luke

Imposter wrote:

Team4Luke wrote:

Imposter wrote:

So, you're saying people can go faster for the same power with a tail wind? Hold the front page.....

90mins tempo 278w ave

that's just some wiggly lines on a graph, mate - what's your point?

reflecting how speed changes dramatically at the same power output dependant on wind, headwind or tailwind for example. We race far faster than we train thus I'm exploring tweeking sessions and putting a bit more in on the faster legs (as it may benefit moreso for a race) and maybe easing a little back on the headwind ones. Even racing on a leg with a headwind would still be going much faster than training against a headwind. If you train on a TT bike then the differential will be smaller, if not then it's a big difference from say training at 20-25mph road bike v racing TT bike at 25-30mph.
Hope that helps explain what I am looking at.

imposter2.0

I wonder if you are over-thinking this. What you are training is the effort level in a given position. Within certain parameters, your actual speed probably doesn't matter.

Obviously if you are training for crits/circuits, then riding at certain power levels on the flat makes the most sense. Training by holding the same power level up a 10% incline might not be the best idea...

jibberjim

Imposter wrote:

I wonder if you are over-thinking this. What you are training is the effort level in a given position. Within certain parameters, your actual speed probably doesn't matter.

But it does, people do experience very different abilities to put out power in different inertial situations (ie speed), the magnitude differs a lot between individuals. I have a good ability to put out power at high inertia and poor at low, I ride with people who are the opposite. They can drop me up comfortably up 15% hills, I can drop them comfortably up 4% hills (on the flat the draft benefit is big enough that they don't get dropped but disproportionately struggle). We weigh the same, so it's not simply w/kg.

imposter2.0

jibberjim wrote:

But it does, people do experience very different abilities to put out power in different inertial situations (ie speed), the magnitude differs a lot between individuals.

That's why I said 'within certain parameters'...

jibberjim wrote:

I have a good ability to put out power at high inertia and poor at low, I ride with people who are the opposite. They can drop me up comfortably up 15% hills, I can drop them comfortably up 4% hills (on the flat the draft benefit is big enough that they don't get dropped but disproportionately struggle). We weigh the same, so it's not simply w/kg.

I know it's not simply w/kg. That's why I qualified what I said in my previous post by using crits/circuits as an example...

ai_1

Team4Luke wrote:

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

Team4Luke wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Imposter wrote:

As above - would love to know more about how I can increase my speed by 7mph while keeping power constant...

Yes, there are differences in the inertial situation depending on the speed, many people find a difference in performance in the two, as to which produces training benefits - no-one really knows.

agreed this is what I find, I'm looking at typical training session where you come across the typical winds in a ride, tough headwind for a long section then a side wind then a tailwind, power can be whatever your training at but speeds vary. Summer often does but not always brings calmer training days and improvement seems to come on much faster in these conditions. Dependant on rider strengths and weaknesses, for example if you are flat out muscular leg wise against the wind then, allow quality here to drop a little and ensure higher quality on the easier sections to push further the cardio system, than it could with leg power restricting reaching threshold or above or vice versa.
I don't think everyone is 50/50 here perhaps some are, if you have strong legs and more spare power then push the hard sections if other way around push the easier sections moreso.
So instead of maintaining the same effort for the whole session, bring in some specifity.

you would never 'push the easier sections' more so than the harder sections ie headwinds and tailwinds because the increase in power and speed is not linear, if you pushed 300watts into a headwind then 250 watts with a tailwind you would cover the distance quicker than if you pushed 250watts into the head wind and 300 watts with the tailwind despite your average power being the same.

but only if your legs can suffer the extra effort (or have watts to spare) which is my point, easier sections if you have a superior cardio system this takes some stress off the legs allowing to go higher into threshold even above. Even flat out into a headwind I would be quite relaxed breathing wise, I can feel there is zero more in the legs but with a tailwind I can nail it much harder and go and hold threshold and above. Same for training or racing but am only talking about training here and not racing or pacing, ie the benefits if any training into or with a wind and the muscular firing of the fibres.

This is purely psychological although psychological is real too. The speed of the bike itself doesn't change what your legs are doing. You probably feel better when you're going faster but the only things that could conceivably make a difference depending specifically on speed are:
1. Psychological effects
2. Maybe slightly different breathing with more headwind (airspeed not groundspeed so only likely to vary a lot on gradients)
3. Cooling (airspeed dependent as per 2 above)
4. Vibration