FTP testing - Hunter Allen 20 mins vs one hour test

Max Bridges

If doing FTP tests are not optimal training or you want to avoid maximal testing for a specific reason, you might consider this.

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-traini ... peed-index

You can do the same with power.

zimage

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it thru a search, so maybe others will do too.

According to Joe Friel better alternative to the 20 minute test should actually be a 30 minutes test. He says that 60 minutes racing equals 30 minutes of solo testing ride. You won't be quite as fast for a solo as you would for a real race, due to lack of motivation. We tend to feel sorry for ourselves when alone and much less so when in a real race. Also an indoor workout typically produces somewhat lower number just because it is so darned difficult to stay motivated for 30min all out indoors.

And to quote Alex Simmons:

The ratio between 20-min power (or other similar shorter TT duration power) and FTP is not the same for everybody, and neither does the ratio remain static for an individual. One should recognise that due to several factors, not least of which is the contribution of anaerobic capacity and the exact protocol used (e.g. performing a pre-ride blowout effort), that the ratio is likely to be within a range and where someone is within that range is anyone’s guess.

So, FTP might be anywhere in the range of, say 90% to 98% of 20-min max average power. Personally, my FTP has been at both 92% and 96% of my then 20-min max average power. So, by all means use 95% of 20-min max power as a starting point but remember it may well be out by some margin and it would be wise to use an additional or alternative method to validate your FTP estimate.

meanredspider

Frankly, unless you're doing it under controlled conditions, it's anyone's guess.

An ex-colleague of mine has set up a company doing human performance testing. On his team is the coach of one of the UK's current foremost athletes (I won't name him because I don't know how much if what I was told was confidential). Anyhow, this coach said he would tweak the mix of gases being fed to this guy that would make him faster over two miles on the treadmill. This he did and afterwards my ex-colleague said he felt fantastic and posted a PB. He asked the coach what he'd changed

"Nothing" came the reply...

It just goes to show (as anyone who, like me, has posted a PB on a new bike knows) how much the mind is involved.

Anyhow, he's invited me to visit him at their labs to see how they are looking closely into blood chemistry and sport. He did however confirm my belief that we are all too different for any specific advice on nutrition or exercise to work for a general group.

Dippydog3

I have done three types of ftp tests.

The twenty minute one
The two times 8 minute one
and the three minute one.

Interestingly, the result was the same, within a couple of percent. Good enough for me. I make sure I do exactly the same warmup before each test, and always have a rest day the day before.

neeb

zimage wrote:

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it thru a search, so maybe others will do too.

According to Joe Friel better alternative to the 20 minute test should actually be a 30 minutes test. He says that 60 minutes racing equals 30 minutes of solo testing ride. You won't be quite as fast for a solo as you would for a real race, due to lack of motivation. We tend to feel sorry for ourselves when alone and much less so when in a real race. Also an indoor workout typically produces somewhat lower number just because it is so darned difficult to stay motivated for 30min all out indoors.

Psychology aside, I guess the nearer to 60mins you get the more accurate the potential estimate (when suitably corrected). But as has been said, it's all about psychology...

For me personally I suspect that a 40 min effort gives me the best idea. 20 mins always overestimates to the extent I don't believe it's really testing FTP whatever correction % I use, but for some reason I find a 40 min all-out effort indoors massively more achievable than a 60 min one.

lochindaal

When doing your 20min test the protocol from HA says you do 5mins hard before doing the FTP test so you don't start your FTP test fresh. Are you doing this?

wavefront

lochindaal wrote:

When doing your 20min test the protocol from HA says you do 5mins hard before doing the FTP test so you don't start your FTP test fresh. Are you doing this?

If you don't do the 5min hard, won't your values just represent a straightforward CP20 effort, rather than trying to help you define a ftp value. They will be different.

Does it matter? I could write a lengthy reply, and maybe that's best for another thread. But what is important is all your ftp tests should be identical in format and setup.

DeVlaeminck

I think it's worth repeating Alex's point over the page about overheating on the turbo. I don't know if different people suffer differently from heat - I would assume so - but I know for myself in the garage I find myself pouring water over my head Floyd Landis style and that is in Winter with a decentish fan.

This Winter I've been using a gym with wattbikes and it's actually a concern that the lack of cooling (they do have fans but not super powerful and I don't feel I can pour water over my head and soak that floor) is a limiter which of course would mean I'm not working as hard as I might otherwise. As Alex says an hour session on a trainer is more susceptible to performance being reduced due to heat than a 20 minute effort.

lochindaal

lochindaal wrote:
When doing your 20min test the protocol from HA says you do 5mins hard before doing the FTP test so you don't start your FTP test fresh. Are you doing this?


If you don't do the 5min hard, won't your values just represent a straightforward CP20 effort, rather than trying to help you define a ftp value. They will be different.

Does it matter? I could write a lengthy reply, and maybe that's best for another thread. But what is important is all your ftp tests should be identical in format and setup.

Just to clarify now I'm typing on a PC and not a phone

The HA test requires
Warm Up - 20mins
Hard effort (all out that you can just manage a kick in the last minute) - 5mins
easy 10mins
FTP test - 20mins
Cool Down

The 5 mins hard will prepare your legs for the 20min test to come and also leave you not completely fresh so you are more likely to get a representation of your FTP.

You could do a 20min test stand alone which you could use to judge yourself if repeated in the same way each time but the OP was asking about comparing his values to a 1 hour test and saying he couldn't manage the numbers. If he is fresh doing the 20min test it may be why he can get a higher number that he can't sustain for 1 hour.

wavefront

lochindaal wrote:

Just to clarify now I'm typing on a PC and not a phone

The HA test requires
Warm Up - 20mins
Hard effort (all out that you can just manage a kick in the last minute) - 5mins
easy 10mins
FTP test - 20mins
Cool Down

The 5 mins hard will prepare your legs for the 20min test to come and also leave you not completely fresh so you are more likely to get a representation of your FTP.

You could do a 20min test stand alone which you could use to judge yourself if repeated in the same way each time but the OP was asking about comparing his values to a 1 hour test and saying he couldn't manage the numbers. If he is fresh doing the 20min test it may be why he can get a higher number that he can't sustain for 1 hour.

Sorry, comletely misinterpreted your post - Agree with all you say, and also suggest the 5mins hard should be completed.

lochindaal

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2015/01/02/understanding-functional-threshold-power

Tom Dean

lochindaal wrote:

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2015/01/02/understanding-functional-threshold-power

This article has the protocol wrong on 2 points: it says the 5 min blowout should be 'tough but sustainable' rather than 'all-out'. It also says you derive FTP from 20min NP - it should be AP.

polyx

After 5 month of no cycling due to family reasons I resumed my turbo sessions on Dec 22 with trainerroad.

I wanted to start with 20 mins FTP test to see where I am, but failed badly just after 3-5 minutes. Just didn't have any fitness/endurance at all to carry on.

Then decided to give up on tests and take it very easy with longish Zone 3-4 efforts, bringing a bit endurance and keeping it interesting, without blowing myself.

In the first ride I sustained 150W for 35 minutes, then increased slighlty both duration and effort.. now after 5th ride I'm at 215W which I held for an hour, hardly going above 170bpm. In fact, the more I prolonge the durations more I start to like it and 1.5 hour (20 min warm up ---- 1 hour 90% of max effort ---- 10 mins cool down) seems spot on after gradually adapting body/mind to it within few sessions.

I know figure is not high at all but considering how soon I got there I hope to get to 250w/hour mark somewhere soonish, training both endurance and strength within the same workout, and can be sure that my FTP is at least 215w, withhout any guesstimates. Just put some tunes to earpohones and you're ready to go!