FTP testing - Hunter Allen 20 mins vs one hour test

topcattim

I've recently failed dismally in two separate one hour FTP tests. In a previous Hunter Allen 20 minute test a few months ago, I recorded 290W which works out at 276 estimated one hour FTP. And I've used that to set my training ranges this winter on the turbo.

In my recent one hour attempts I've started at 280 (and in today's failure, at 270W), but I've just run out of mental energy to keep it going beyond 20 minutes. I'm (fairly) confident that I could have done 20 minutes at 290W but it was just the mental challenge of knowing that I had to go for another 40 minutes that led to my legs just stopping.

I know that in one sense I should just toughen up and learn to suffer more. But equally, when I look back at my last attempt at a one hour FTP, I managed just 256W at this time last year.

I am doing these attempts on the turbo in the garage and getting power readings off that. I know that some may say that turbo estimates are never going to be that reliable, but it is all I have.

So my question is, should I set my ranges from a 20 minute estimated FTP, or from a lower rate that I can actually make in a 60 minute period. I know that they should be the same, but they just don't seem to be. Is that just because I am giving up too easily? I'm usually fairly good at keeping my mind on the task, which makes me think that this isn't the real reason.

Tom Dean

Just because FTP is sometimes defined as a 60 minute max, doesn't mean that is the best way to test for a practical figure.

If you have gone with the Allen protocol before and it made sense I would stick with it.

topcattim

Tom Dean wrote:

Just because FTP is sometimes defined as a 60 minute max, doesn't mean that is the best way to test for a practical figure.

If you have gone with the Allen protocol before and it made sense I would stick with it.

Yes, but if I set my training ranges based on the 276 estimate from 20 minute Max, they would lead to much harder sessions than if I set them based on 256 (based on a genuine 60 min effort). That's got to matter, surely? (FWIW, I have had it bases on the 276 estimate, and it all seems do-able but hard).

Tom Dean

Yes it matters. Doable but hard is exactly what you are looking for I would say!

neeb

Have you tried doing a 2x20 at 276w? If you can do it, you'll at least know that 276w is much nearer your FTP than 256 is.

<edit> I can't do a 2x20 at 95% of my 20min effort, I reckon my FTP is nearer 92% of that. But my strongest area is VO2 max / 5 minute efforts, so I reckon that skews my 20min max efforts upwards.

topcattim

neeb wrote:

Have you tried doing a 2x20 at 276w? If you can do it, you'll at least know that 276w is much nearer your FTP than 256 is.

<edit> I can't do a 2x20 at 95% of my 20min effort, I reckon my FTP is nearer 92% of that. But my strongest area is VO2 max / 5 minute efforts, so I reckon that skews my 20min max efforts upwards.

That's a great idea, thanks. I'll give that a go next weekend. I'm fairly confident that I could (and after the disappointment of the failed 60 min test, I could do with a boost) but the only way to know for sure is to get out and try.

dw300

All I know is .. when I hit 35-40 minutes on the one hour test that it was so much suffering that I couldn't not finish it at that point, it would have seemed like a huge waste of time and energy.

The 20 minute point is the worst mentally, just feels like an impossible task at that point.

FWIW .. I was within 3W of the estimate from a 20 minute test, so I haven't put myself through that nonsense since!

ozzzyosborn206

I guess this is the main reason they suggest doing a 20min test, personally in training I would struggle to hold the effort in training but on a 25 mile TT for instance I could hold the effort for the duration. There is probably a slight difference depending what your fatigue profile is like but doubt it will be too much?

Max Bridges

Tom Dean wrote:

Just because FTP is sometimes defined as a 60 minute max, doesn't mean that is the best way to test for a practical figure.

If you have gone with the Allen protocol before and it made sense I would stick with it.

If you are going to base you training on FTP you should get the number right. The entire system is based upon this FTP number. If you get it wrong, all your zones will be wrong.

The best estimate of FTP will come from a 1 hour TT. Unless you do this you will always be guessing and hoping the percentage of your maximum 20 minute power is what you can actually achieve over an entire hour. Most people will suffer from wishful thinking and hope they could do 95% of 20 min power over an entire hour. Some might only be able to manage 93%. Others even less.

There is no point guessing, you can do that without a power meter. Get it right do it properly.

If you can't hold the power for 60 minutes it isn't FTP it is wishful thinking.

okgo

The zones are open ended enough that a few watts isn't making much difference and it will not ruin your zones if you're 5-10w out.

Alex_Simmons/RST

topcattim wrote:

I've recently failed dismally in two separate one hour FTP tests. In a previous Hunter Allen 20 minute test a few months ago, I recorded 290W which works out at 276 estimated one hour FTP. And I've used that to set my training ranges this winter on the turbo.

In my recent one hour attempts I've started at 280 (and in today's failure, at 270W), but I've just run out of mental energy to keep it going beyond 20 minutes. I'm (fairly) confident that I could have done 20 minutes at 290W but it was just the mental challenge of knowing that I had to go for another 40 minutes that led to my legs just stopping.

I know that in one sense I should just toughen up and learn to suffer more. But equally, when I look back at my last attempt at a one hour FTP, I managed just 256W at this time last year.

I am doing these attempts on the turbo in the garage and getting power readings off that. I know that some may say that turbo estimates are never going to be that reliable, but it is all I have.

So my question is, should I set my ranges from a 20 minute estimated FTP, or from a lower rate that I can actually make in a 60 minute period. I know that they should be the same, but they just don't seem to be. Is that just because I am giving up too easily? I'm usually fairly good at keeping my mind on the task, which makes me think that this isn't the real reason.

Putting aside turbo accuracy issues, if you cannot replicate FTP in longer intervals when not overly fatigued, then it's likely set too high, so lower the number and train according to what you can do.

On a turbo you will likely suffer more from heat induced performance reduction the longer you ride hard.

IOW, just adjust your training levels based on what you can actually do.

Keep in mind that not everyone has an FTP that is 95% of the Hunter Allen test. It can readily be somewhat lower (or a tad higher). 95% is just an estimate but really it's a range.

Max Bridges

okgo wrote:

The zones are open ended enough that a few watts isn't making much difference and it will not ruin your zones if you're 5-10w out.

Perhaps not but 20 watts like the poster above, 256 or 276 watts, is much too big.

Tom Dean

Max Bridges wrote:

okgo wrote:

The zones are open ended enough that a few watts isn't making much difference and it will not ruin your zones if you're 5-10w out.

Perhaps not but 20 watts like the poster above, 256 or 276 watts, is much too big.

OP tested at 256w a year ago.

bahzob

Few points:

- Don't get confused. The purpose of carrying out an FTP test is to monitor progress, help setting the correct training zones and (possibly depending on software being used) help balance overall training load/recovery. It's a means to an end not the end itself
>> Either test will help monitor progress. And anyway the real test of progress is how you are doing in your chosen events anyway.
>> In practice the effect on target zones for sessions wont be that big. These will be ranges anyway. And if you are finding the sessions too hard/easy that's the best guide as to whether your FTP is too low or too high.
>> Rather than rely on just one measure its quite OK to do several different types of test

- FTP is changing anyway. As and when the next version of WKO arrives FTP will be calculated automatically. It wont mean the end of threads on the topic ofc..

Team4Luke

Set your indooor training levels at what you can actually achieve indoors
Set your outdoor training levels at what you can actually achieve outdoors

the two are not the same, far from it.

chrisw12

I use ftp, I use a turbo and have two powertap wheels, one for outside and one for inside, I use performance manager. So yes a figure to base everything off and be consistent is important to me but if I was just training on the turbo and doing similar training sets repeatedly would I need a magical ftp number?

What I'm trying to say is, say I do 2x20 today at 300w then tomorrow I do them at 305w or some percentage of my best 20 min power, my ftp is irrelevant, why bother measuring it. Say you want to do 5 min intervals, on day one take an educated guess at a target power then on day 2 adjust again. How does knowing an accurate ftp help.

neeb

chrisw12 wrote:

I use ftp, I use a turbo and have two powertap wheels, one for outside and one for inside, I use performance manager. So yes a figure to base everything off and be consistent is important to me but if I was just training on the turbo and doing similar training sets repeatedly would I need a magical ftp number?

What I'm trying to say is, say I do 2x20 today at 300w then tomorrow I do them at 305w or some percentage of my best 20 min power, my ftp is irrelevant, why bother measuring it. Say you want to do 5 min intervals, on day one take an educated guess at a target power then on day 2 adjust again. How does knowing an accurate ftp help.

I think this works pretty well for near-threshold efforts such as 2x20. Rather than continually testing my FTP, I just do 2x20s almost (but not quite) as hard as I can. If I do the first session at a certain power and then can't finish the second session at the same power, then next time I'll start at a lower figure. Similarly if I get to the end of the second session and feel I could keep going or ramp it up a little, I'll do both sessions at a higher power next time.

But with other types of session that are further away from being maximal efforts at that time duration (such as level 2 and level 3 work) you need to have some idea of FTP to set the effort to do them at.

Personally what I tend to do is simply estimate my current FTP from the power I am doing my 2x20s at, given that I usually do them at almost (but not quite) maximum effort.

chrisw12

Thanks Neeb,it's nice to get confirmation that people are doing something similar to myself. I agree with you regarding doing lower level work, a ftp value is needed but in truth I just don't do lower level work on the turbo but point taken.

Back to the op, I was wondering about this question when I was doing a 1hr test on Sat night. From a knowing my ftp point of view, as can be seen from my posts above, I think it was a pretty pointless task, I ended up within a few w of my estimates anyway. But from a training point of view it was a great session. One hour at ftp ticks all the boxes, I just wish I could mentally do it more often.

Kevo27

I will start by stating i am quite new to this sport but find the testing (FTP) etc very interesting, my 2p worth is you state that you have done a test before at 290w but did not manage to repeat this figure again due to lack of mental energy. What is affecting the mental focus as to me you can physically do it but the mental side of things is letting you down. Setting a lower number from what you had before to me is going backwards, but am sure there are or could be other factors involved?
How long in between the tests?
What training was done in between tests?

neeb

Kevo27 wrote:

my 2p worth is you state that you have done a test before at 290w but did not manage to repeat this figure again due to lack of mental energy.

No - the OP's 290w was for 20 minutes. FTP is (by definition) the power you can sustain for an hour, but the idea is that you can approximate your FTP by taking 95% of an all-out 20min effort, which in this case would be 276w. But obviously the best way to work out FTP is still an all-out 1 hour effort. These are difficult though, for psychological reasons as well as heat/dehydration indoors. The OP is wondering how accurate the 276w estimate is, because he has been unable to do a 1 hour test at that level (the best being 256).

topcattim

Kevo27 wrote:

I will start by stating i am quite new to this sport but find the testing (FTP) etc very interesting, my 2p worth is you state that you have done a test before at 290w but did not manage to repeat this figure again due to lack of mental energy. What is affecting the mental focus as to me you can physically do it but the mental side of things is letting you down. Setting a lower number from what you had before to me is going backwards, but am sure there are or could be other factors involved?
How long in between the tests?
What training was done in between tests?

Great questions, Kevo. I'm a psychologist by trade and am consequently really interested in all this, and usually very good at harnessing my cognitive resources to help with this sort of thing. I'm also fiendishly busy in my day (and evening and weekend) job at the moment, and the FTP tests have been done in the afternoon at the weekend after having had to work (at my desk job) in the morning - and I know from my research into willpower that mental effort can make subsequent physical effort much harder. I also know that it isn't a simple relationship - much of it depends on how we think about willpower, and whether we see it as a finite resource, or something that can be developed over time.
But all of that aside, I'm wanting to make sure that my hour long turbo sessions are as keen as they can and should be, and that they are therefore based on a decent figure. My reading of all the discussion above is that, in some ways, the actual figure makes little difference but that the hardness of each session based on that figure is what matters - and that, currently, the sessions are really stretching, but usually manageable and therefore just about right.
So, I'll continue with the higher estimate figure, and muster all my mental effort for the next test in four weeks time....

neeb

topcattim wrote:

Great questions, Kevo. I'm a psychologist by trade

milese

The theory goes that the difference between 95% of 20 min and 100% of 60 mins is motivation.

The way I see it, is no matter how hard I kill myself for 60 minutes it will never be a true 100% effort, frankly, given how revoluting an experience it is. It also wouldnt be anywhere near as repeatable as a 20 minute test, and the repeatability and consistency of such is one of the most important aspects of the test.

I agree with what others have said, given how impossible it is to hit an exact figure, and the range of zones 5 or 10 watts doesn't really mean anything. 5 or 10 watts only matters psychologically when you get the results of your test...

I'm fairly new to power, but have and will skip a test if I dont think I can beat my previous test, due to percieved fatigue or traces of illness. The mind is a powerful tool!

Looking forward to getting some TTs in to see what a difference the 'race face' makes.....

chrisw12

^ Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Just to share my experience from the weekend. I did a hour test on Saturday after a failed attempt on Thursday, lack of motivation on Thursday and I just couldn't carry on through 30 minutes. On Sunday due to rain, I attempted my stock 2x20 session but again no mental energy to complete.

So yes, I've had a good session on Saturday but because I wanted to do a test I've basically lost two days of training (Thursday and Sunday). The lesson for me AT THE MOMENT is avoid the hour test and just train consistently.

dawebbo

ftp is "functional". This factors in your mental ability to push yourself. Improving your ability to push yourself to the limit is part of training, some people are better than others at this.

okgo

Usually having a number on your back helps...

ozzzyosborn206

dawebbo wrote:

ftp is "functional". This factors in your mental ability to push yourself. Improving your ability to push yourself to the limit is part of training, some people are better than others at this.

'this' some of my mates claim to throw up quite often after/during turbo sets. I say claim because I race with them alot and have never seen them be sick after a race so why would they push themselves harder on the turbo? Do any of you ever push yourself so far that you are sick? I seem to have something that stops me from doing so, but i also wonder people who do this, is it just because they haven't digested their food properly?

napoleond

I seem more able to dig a lot deeper when racing/under pressure during structured training sessions with others than on the turbo/on my own.

chrisw12

ozzzyosborn206 wrote:

dawebbo wrote:

ftp is "functional". This factors in your mental ability to push yourself. Improving your ability to push yourself to the limit is part of training, some people are better than others at this.

'this' some of my mates claim to throw up quite often after/during turbo sets. I say claim because I race with them alot and have never seen them be sick after a race so why would they push themselves harder on the turbo? Do any of you ever push yourself so far that you are sick? I seem to have something that stops me from doing so, but i also wonder people who do this, is it just because they haven't digested their food properly?

This brought back memories. I was sick during a two up timetrial, all over myself, all over my bike. Happened at the turn as well. :oops:

The link to this thread, would I have been motivated enough to get to that state on my own, no way. What caused it, I think you are right, I think bad nutrition was the main problem, but that's another story.

neeb

Only time I've been physically sick through over exertion is by trying to doggedly to sustain a certain speed or wattage over a longish ride early in the season. Because of where I live it's pretty much impossible to get "base miles" in during the winter, so I hit spring with a good FTP from indoor training but no endurance. First few weeks of spring are hellish, but after that I'm fine.

uphillstruggle

I shall be doing a test soon having apparently made big recent gains as a result of structured training and resting.

The mental aspect is interesting. My recent schedule has had me doing upper tempo for two hours which i manage at an average of 270 w. This is a toughish session but not quite flat out (50m tt kind of pace)

As a result mentally dropping to an hour or 20 mins seems less daunting and i am expecting my FTP to be around 300w which i believe i could maintain for the full hour.

Not sure if that is actually achieveable based on the 2hr result but it feels so.

On a further point on the turbo 270 w would be a pretty much flat out hour whilst in TT position would be more like a max 20 min effort.