Is shortening a stem worse than lengthening it?
Comments
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What is the length of the chain you are using measured in inches?0
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Just done it every which way but loose with that 11-32 cassette on (with b-tension all the way in every time).
The proper "correct" length is 54 inches, or 108 half links.
108 half links - aka 54 inches - rumbles quite a lot in lowest gear.
106 half links - aka 53 inches = rumbles a bit in lowest gear.
104 half links - aka 52 inches = no rumbling in lowest gear.
I have no choice but to run it with 52 links. This is 2 links/inches shorter than it should be. So I will have to remember not to use big with sprockets 1, 2, 3, 4 and not to use the middle ring with sprockets 1 and 2. Then, its actually a smooth drivetrain.
I am at a stage now where taking a link out or adding a link will make it worse than it is.
As long as no one borrows my bike and I always remember some gears are a no-no I should be alright. Its rare I go onto that 39F/32R anyway. It is a bummer having to use the granny ring because of changing from it to the middle ring, always a bummer but even more so uphill. This is the essence of why triples are hated, I hate it myself. :roll:
How nice it used to be to just flick the front mech one way or the other. 8) Back as a kid on someone's Peugeot "racer" bike with 10 gears. 0 -
If you are running the ST 2300 rear derailleur the maximum cog size is 26 teeth, trying to run a 32 is probably the problem.
53 chain length is right for 25 or 26 rear cog, it should run OK then.0 -
diamonddog wrote:If you are running the ST 2300 rear derailleur the maximum cog size is 26 teeth, trying to run a 32 is probably the problem.
53 chain length is right for 25 or 26 rear cog, it should run OK then.
No I am using an Alivio MTB mech that can take up to a 34T. The upper jockey wheel is too close to the biggest sprocket (32T) in the lowest gear with the b-tension screwed all the way in. I was going to get a 11-28T to try that but I think the jockey wheel will still be too close even to a 28.
I wonder if a MTB mech that can take up to a 36T would alleviate the problem, I mean they don't manufacture those mechs with a longer b-tension screw, right? So if the b-tension is the same distance on 36T max mechs, that means the mech can itself inherently cope better.
Somehow the mech hanger won't allow the mech to come forward enough, well I say somehow but I know its because the hanger notch is too far back. I can see comparing to the Triban 3 frame (where this setup worked fine) the hanger notch on the Stelvio frame is set back, the Triban 3 frame its at an angle of about 7 O clock, on the Stelvio the notch is cut at more like 8 O clock meaning the rear mech cannot come as far forward as it does on the Triban 3. Maybe this is all related to the fact that it is "meant" to have a 25T max on a road bike I don't know.
You should see how stretched the mech is now on middle ring and 32T :roll:
I have got all my gears usable, but I just have to remember the chain is short - it has to be to stop that rumbling in the lowest gear, the original problem.
I will ride it not using big with 1/2/3/4 and middle with 1/2. In other words using the middle of the cassette with the granny ring where I used to just use 39F/32R. That is a low gear, its rare I gear down to that, its just the nature of my riding and getting tired so fast, its still needed.0 -
I can waffle on endlessly lol.
Most stuff I type here I am putting to save remembering it. :P
50F x 32R - You need a 54 inch chain.
Stelvio won't accept that (rumbling in lowest gear, b-tension) or a 53 inch (still rumbles) but does accept a 52 inch.
So you're running a chain 2 inches shorter than it should be.
50F x 28R - You need a 53 inch chain.
Stelvio might not accept that (might rumble in lowest gear, b-tension) but should accept a 52 inch.
So you're running a chain 1 inch shorter than it should be.
I think you might get away with having a chain only 1 inch too short as opposed to 2 because its on a 28T not 32T and that will fix everything, lol. You'd have to have the proverbial "extreme setup" with the b-tension screwed right in and hanging half off the mech hanger notch coupled with a chain 1 inch too short.
I have half a mind to just file the notch honestly. :roll: I don't think I'd dare to. Might just take it to a LBS and ask what would happen if I did, or they did, or said "Tsk, no wonder, you need [X] hanger, here's the right hanger". 0 -
Well done manc, you've jumped ahead with that over the weekend
Two things I don't recall seeing you mention manc, which I asked about but oyu didn't say if you'd checked, re the rumbling. One was chain alignment. are sprockets, chain, and gear jockey wheel teeth all nicely lined up in the gears? The other thing was about your chain generally; it could just be worn out and stretched, which means it won't be sitting properly in the sprockets. Have you checked for chainwear or put a new chain in? it looks new in the pics, but thought I'd ask anyway!
This link shows how to check:http://cyclingtips.com.au/2009/03/how-to-check-for-chain-wear/
PS: talking about the rear mech cable bolt, I've no idea what you're talking about!
Jam butties, officially endorsed by the Diddymen Olympic Squad0 -
about the rear hanger, I did say previously that you should really go to a bike shop. That SJS link you posted showed a loty of different hangers. If you just buy hangers at random, off the internet you'll be wasiting your money. At the very least try to match it up so the holes look right. Your suggestion of speaking to Planet X was also a good one. If you have any problems with or queries about the frame, as the sellers, they should be the first port of call.
Jam butties, officially endorsed by the Diddymen Olympic Squad0 -
Now I am thinking of maybe putting my 22/32/42 MTB crankset on with the 12-23T.
Lowest gear: 0.95
Highest gear: 3.50
With only 42x12 it will run out of gearing on hills, not sure what the MPH would be at 90 RPM.
11-23T cassettes in 8 speed are hard to find, Sunrace do one. That would up the highest gear to 3.80.
Having the MTB chainset on will give both low gearing for hills and a close ratio. I remember having that 12-23 on my MTB with this exact setup, was always using the outer chainring.
In fact at first I would try the MTB chainrings with the MTB cassette and mech, who knows, maybe for some mysterious reason that will work, with the right chain length, with the b-tension in an acceptable situation. It would need a 52 inch chain, so maybe not!
The other setup would be MTB chainrings with the 12-23 as suggested at first, that only needs a 50 inch chain.
Still working out if its chain length or sprocket size, but it does work better with a chain thats "too short" by 2 inches.
That... alleviates the b-tension rumbling in the lowest gear.
With the road cassette (42F/12R) I will run out @ 90 RPM @ about 24 MPH. Well I am never going to maintain that on the flat for long and I can just roll the rest of the time.0 -
You need to get that bike to a decent LBS. Something's badly wrong and you aren't finding the solution. 'Remembering not to use half the gears' is not a solution - you should be able to use all of them. Things you can do with the bike as is include:
Wrecking the rear mech
Wrecking the rear wheel
Breaking the chain stay
Distorting the front mech cage
Killing yourself (unlikely but it would be really irritating if it happened due to a poorly set up bike).Faster than a tent.......0 -
Ypu could try filing down the part of the rear mech hanger you think is the problem?
Or you could buy a smaller upper jockey wheel for your mech. I think shimano ones have 11 teeth, but Im sure you can get them with 10 teeth.0 -
As RolfF said and I agree it's time to take it to your LBS and get it sorted once and for all then they can tell you what the problem is otherwise you could cause serious damage to yourself, the bike or both.0
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In the middle of swapping to my MTB crankset, if it fits.
I think I do need a wider axle on my bottom bracket. It would explain why the front mech cable overlapped. If the granny ring was say 5mm out, that cable wouldn't be overlapping like that.
Thing is if I put a MTB crank on I think it will cancel that out, the axle on my MTB is about 7mm shorter overall compared to the road bottom bracket.
If this works I will do it but at some point ask at a shop "Why was that" but if I can fix it with this MTB chainset then I will leave it.
Maybe the frame makers never envisaged anyone putting more than a 25T cassette on the bike but I dunno, they would have to be old fashioned or something, but then it is made by one of the oldest bike companies ever, that only just started up again. Maybe they are just that "staunch" about it?
This MTB chainset is of such a low quality the chainrings are not bolted on, they are riveted on. :shock:
Chainset off a £260 full suspension MTB lol.0 -
Forget that, the Tiagra R443 front mech can't cope with a 22-32-42. It wouldn't shift up to the 42. Hardly a surprise really considering it is made for flat bar bikes that have road chainsets.
Its setup back how it was again.
Road 28-39-50 chainrings.
Tiagra R443 front mech.
11-32 MTB cassette.
Alivio MTB rear mech.
All with a chain that must be 2 inches too short - it has to be 2 inches too short for the lowest gear to not have the jockey wheel rubbing on the biggest sprocket. 1 inch too short, it rubs a little. At correct length, forget it, that jockey wheel rubbing effect is greatly increased, on the correct length chain.
This appears to be the most doable setup, apart from of course having a 12-23 or 12-25 at the back - that runs perfectly with the road triple - but is nearly useless to me because of my weak legs. It would even stop me using the bike, probably, because I can't go where I want to go, like up Snake Pass in summer. Don't care how long it takes or how low a gear I have to be in!
So its running pretty smooth now except I must remember never to use the 4 biggest sprockets on the biggest chainring and using the middle chainring with the biggest sprocket is even a bit iffy, because the rear mech is stretched to the max. God knows why, oh I know, because the chain is 2 inches too short.
Like I said I am now at a stage where adding or taking 1 inch from the chain will either cause jockey wheel rubbing or be absurd on the biggest sprocket even in the middle chainring.
The only other thing I can think is chance buying a 11-28 but I am almost so sure a 28T will still be too big I think its probably pointless, its going to take way more of a decrease than just 4 teeth to stop that rubbing.
With a 32T, I need a chain 2 inches too short (4 teeth).
With a 30T, I would need a chain 1 inch too short (2 teeth).
With a 28T, I could possibly get away with a chain the right length. :shock:
Wouldn't going to a 28T and taking 4 teeth off the biggest sprocket and doing nothing with a chain thats already 2 inches too short... just give me exactly what I have now (jockey wheel rubbing wise aka just about OK) except the chain will be long enough?
So I think this bike just can't take a chain longer than 52 inches, regardless of chainrings and sprockets.
50x32 needs a 54 inch chain. I have a 52 inch on that same setup.
50x28 it needs a 53 inch (why not 52?). I can (probably) have a 52 inch on that setup.
Stupid bike, but I love it really. :oops:0 -
That poor frame. I can hear it screaming in pain from here. If anyone sees Manc33 out on this bike, can they please shoot the frame and put it out of its misery!Faster than a tent.......0
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If the Alivio rear mech you are using is the RD-MC20 the max rear cog is a 30, the RD-M410 will take a 34 max.
You could have the wrong rear mech for the gearing you are trying to use.
The frame is not at fault please stop picking on it.
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diamonddog wrote:If the Alivio rear mech you are using is the RD-MC20 the max rear cog is a 30, the RD-M410 will take a 34 max.
You could have the wrong rear mech for the gearing you are trying to use.
The frame is not at fault please stop picking on it.
It is the RD-M410 - theres play in the swingarm on the biggest sprocket. :roll:
Got an old "Deore XT" rear mech I could try, M730 - a rear mech from 1992 that can take a 34T sprocket!
Its just that I think that will work better than the Alivio, I know there's no play in the Deore XT but it is so out of date lol. I am not even sure it will work with an 11T sprocket. :oops:
I am going to grab a 11-28T cassette and a new chain... then again I will get ready to hear that lovely rumbling noise.
I can imagine taking it to my LBS and the conversation going like this:
Me: "I had road gears on originally but need MTB gearing because my legs are weak so I tried a 11-32T cassette and the mech seems too far back, as if the notch is cut too far back on the mech hanger, tried my 12-23T and my legs are too weak, tried the MTB chainset for use with the 12-23T and my road mech can't cope with that triple, tried this length of chain, that length..."
LBS: "Because its a road bike"0 -
Please take it to the LBS, your perseverance is admirable but at some point I think you will end up there anyway.:)0
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You must have deep pockets to keep throwing money at something with no method behind how you intend it to fix your problems.
You've been told what to do by others already so I won't belabour the point but this is going to cost so much more than it had to had you got proper, in person, advice from an experienced mechanic.0 -
If I add 2 links/inches to the chain and make it the correct length, that makes the mech swingarm move back, which in turn means the upper jockey wheel can interfere with the biggest sprocket.
Folks just let me fret about throwing money at it.
I need a new cassette anyway (must have been on this current one for 1000 miles easily) and while those 8 speed chains are only about £6 or £7 I might as well get one, otherwise I would have to splice together a KMC chain (currently on the bike) with some PC830 links and I don't want to do that. Although it does work. :twisted:
I have got a feeling a 28T will be about right, but would be the absolute max. I mean to have a chain the right length without jockey wheel interference, although the b-tension will still need screwing right in. Thats the bottom line to me still, the rear mech hanger notch is setup so the mech is too far back... road mechs and cassettes work perfectly. In a sick way maybe, on a road gearing setup, its meant to be further back to give more spring in the mech and better shifting?
Hardly anyone ever puts a 32T sprocket on a road bike lol. Maybe there's a lot of other frames that just won't take it. How can we know.0 -
Changing cassette after only 1000 miles seems odd, in fact the whole thing is odd but it's your money.
There will be lots of people running 30T, 32T and even 34T on road bikes.0 -
Manc33 wrote:If I add 2 links/inches to the chain and make it the correct length, that makes the mech swingarm move back, which in turn means the upper jockey wheel can interfere with the biggest sprocket.
Folks just let me fret about throwing money at it.
You are finding unsolveable problems where there aren't any.
1) Any road bike should be able to cope with any cassette sprocket between 11 and 32 teeth at least.
2) Any road bike should be able to handle chainrings from 30-53 teeth depending on whether double or triple.
3) The only things you'll need to consider altering for the above is the size of the rear mech cage and/or the front mech and the chain length.
No combination of the first 2 items listed above can't be covered by changing the items listed in 3 in such a way that there are no problems with the running gear, no nonsense about not using certain gear ratios etc.
No decent LBS is going to take more than about five minutes to work out what you have been doing wrong for the last week. No decent LBS is going to give you grief for having tried to do it yourself.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:2) Any road bike should be able to handle chainrings from 30-53 teeth depending on whether double or triple.
My triple was 30-39-50 originally and I put a 28T inner ring on.
Maybe it is because of that 28T up front. The whole reason for the jockey wheel rubbing is the chain seems to be too long when it is at the correct length.
As suggested above as well, my Alivio has way bigger jockey wheels on it than this old Deore XT M730 I have got here, that has 10T jockey wheels whereas the Alivio has....... 13T :shock:
OK let me swap to that ancient M730 then to see... after all it can apparently take up to 34T.0 -
Its fixed with the 1992 Deore XT mech. No jockey wheel issues and the b-tension is about 80% in with some to spare. It has the right length chain now, 54 inches.
Thing is I now have a chain thats 52 inches of KMC "Z" and 2 inches of SRAM "PC-830".
Because the KMC chain came with the bike when bought, I don't have the extra links for it.
I do have a new problem but it was happening with the Alivio too - if I shift from the smallest to biggest sprocket one at a time, all sprockets are smooth, but when I click once off the biggest sprocket to the next one, I get a light "tinkle" noise from the chain so I screw in the barrel adjuster a tiny bit to get rid of that... but then of course it won't change up from the smallest sprocket to the next one. Is this just because I am using entry level shifters?
I know this didn't happen on those XTR shifters... but then they are 7 entire groups above the Claris 2400. Its bottom vs top.
So I can either put up with that tinkle noise, or put up with giving all upshifts a little shove beyond. Easier to just have it tinkling. All new cables, all oiled in the housings. :roll:
Maybe a 11-28 might solve it. Just kidding, but yeah, because the mech won't be as stretched coming off a 32T. Thing is that tinkle carries on to about the 3rd or 4th sprocket before changing down is smooth again (sprockets 5/6/7/8).
I ain't touching this bike now except to ride it! Sorry I will put the PC850 chain on when it arrives so I have a chain thats all the same. I will just save the 11-28T cassette for when my legs are stronger lol. Its only ever on really steep or really long hills I use the 28F/32R combo anyway. Having a 28T will at least make the ratios a bit closer which is always good (if it keeps a low gear that is).0 -
This is a must.
http://www.singletrackbikes.co.uk/m7b20 ... tAodGlwAWg
The cheap Deda one won't fit around the bottom of the seat tube. Shame because its 4x cheaper than the K-Edge one.
Because the chain catcher has to be for a triple and cannot go around the seat tube I am limited.
Seriously, where do they get £20 from for these things, its a metal bar and a bolt. :shock: You can buy a good front mech for that.
Same with those carbon braze on band mounts, the one I got was £15 which is steep (Shimano alloy one is about £10) but the original carbon band mount is something like $95 in the US.0 -
Use a large cable tie, like these chaps and me.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bmc/help-looking-chain-catcher-fit-slc-01-a-208114.html
Dales0 -
Dales1 wrote:Use a large cable tie, like these chaps and me.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bmc/help-looking-chain-catcher-fit-slc-01-a-208114.html
Dales
Its hard to visualize it, you mean like this?
Thats clever. 8)
Thing is I already ordered one, might as well chuck it on. :roll:0 -
I lost my dongle (no sniggering please)! You've been having lots of fun over the last few days I see, good to see you've got it up and running.
Jam butties, officially endorsed by the Diddymen Olympic Squad0 -
First I got the frame and thought my threadless headset would fit it. Then I got the integrated headset. Then took to a LBS to have the headsets metal ring put on the fork. Then I cut the steerer tube (scary, 2 jubilee clips and a 36 TPI hacksaw did it quite well). Then I had to keep waiting 2 days for this, 1 day for that. Added the bottom bracket and everything else. Then the upper jockey wheel kept rubbing on the sprocket, swapped to an old rear mech with 10T jockey wheels (taking a mech off that had 13T on it). This allowed me to have the chain the right length. Then I put a new chain on it.
I am only waiting for the chain catcher now but I am still going out on it.
Now with a rear mech with 10T jockey wheels and a new chain, the drivetrain is pretty much silent.
Riding the bike the reach is a vast improvement over the 57cm Triban 3.
I am still getting used to STi shifters. Hardly ever used them. The Triban 3 had them taken off almost straight away. Its the upshift from granny to middle that gets me, you have to shove it all the way which then means its been "trimmed" and you have to down click it slightly to re-adjust. It was a tight setup between it shifting from granny to middle and having the downshift work as well but it does now. A quarter turn, no an eighth of a turn on the adjuster, will throw it one way or the other now.
I have had it go off the granny ring once but the bike was upside down on my bed and I clicked the shifter then moved the pedals, still, thats enough for me to get a catcher.0 -
Ride it and enjoy it now you have put all this work into it. 0
