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Depression and Doping

NervexProfNervexProf Posts: 4,202
edited January 2014 in Pro race
I found this article in the Guardian interesting and revealing.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/100-to ... ion-doping
Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom
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Posts

  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,891
    And written by one of the most high profile purveyors of unsubstantiated gossip on twitter. The hypocracy of some people is staggering.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95 wrote:
    And written by one of the most high profile purveyors of unsubstantiated gossip on twitter. The hypocracy of some people is staggering.


    F8&king unbelievable

    EDIT: I've just wigged out on the Twatter about it
  • Yellow PerilYellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    I'm surprised that they published such a "technical" article. You've got to understand cycling speak and know who people are to follow it properly. Not aimed at the casual reader.

    EDIT: I'm not on twitter, should I sign up?
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,891
    EDIT: I'm not on twitter, should I sign up?
    If you're not on it by now then you're probably not missing much.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,774
    Groan.....
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 9,465
    It's like a very long Festinagirl tweet, really. Lots of conjecture, backed by a fairly thin "well it seems to make sense" rationale. Is cycling any different from any other elite sport? Plenty of footballers have gone on to drug abuse, addiction, alcoholism and suicide, for instance. And plenty of people that drive buses, do accounts, serve in shops etc. have done the same.

    A few factual innacuracies as well: what, exactly, is the bigger and better thing that Obree has gone on to after his depression? I'm glad he's dealt with it, I like him a lot (see my signature), but professionally I don't think he's topped beating the hour record twice. "Forfra" only means "from the front" literally - in Danish it means "start again" or "take it from the top". Blunt statement of who has produced the highest power ever (Contador, apparently, Riis second) - based on....? Oh, that'll be Vayer I imagine.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    I had a job working in a crisp factory for a bit,,,that was f%%king depressing
  • Despite the good and bad elements to the article, there clearly is an issue.

    Question is whether cycling causes depression or whether depressed people are attracted to cycling.

    Truth is probably a bit of both.
  • Cycling, when it's on it's winter break, causes depression.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • mr_pollmr_poll Posts: 1,612
    edited January 2014
    Oh the irony - the comments about Santa and his suicide tweet and the cruel responses on Twitter and forums - from someone who was happy to muck rake and make all kinds of accusations on twitter, wonder if she gave Wiggins' demons any thought as she laid into his transformation from track to yellow jersey.

    Forgetting who wrote it for a minute, which is hard with the snide comments about marginal gains etc

    The annoying thing about an article like this is that it is a pure opinion piece that could have been better researched and linked to actual evidence. I am not saying her assertions are wrong but within the first few paragraphs she asserts that there is strong evidence that there is a link between forms of doping and depression, but doesn't reference anything. Later she links us to a study by Patten, which in its conclusion says that the study doesn't show causal influence.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,891
    edited January 2014
    The thing with writing about depression is that unless you are a mental health professional or writing from experience then you would be well advised to steer clear of the subject. There's enough misinformation on the subject as it is without adding half-baked theories and 100 year old stories to the pile.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • EDIT: I'm not on twitter, should I sign up?

    Only if you want to look at pictures of cats.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • RichN95 wrote:
    The thing with writing about depression is that unless you are a mental health profession or writing for experience then you would be well advised to steer clear of the subject. There's enough misinformation on the subject as it is without adding half-baked theories and 100 year old stories to the pile.

    ^This x1000
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Despite the good and bad elements to the article, there clearly is an issue.

    Question is whether cycling causes depression or whether depressed people are attracted to cycling.

    Truth is probably a bit of both.
    As has already been mentioned there are people with depression in all walks of life, cycling is not a special case. Throw in the pressure on those who perform at the top of their game (in whichever field) whilst facing continual criticism and most people would struggle to maintain good mental health in such a situation.

    A simple test would be to perform a diagnostic test for depression on all professional cyclists rather than just citing cases that fit a preconceived opinion. You could the compare them to national and global figures fo depression to see whether cycling is as bad for mental health as the author thinks.

    I found the reference to research baffling as it has no real relevance to the point they are trying to make but I suspect they've thrown it in to try and give some legitimacy to their viewpoint.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    I think that article says it all really.

    Chapeau.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,891
    joelsim wrote:
    I think that article says it all really.
    Chapeau.
    It really doesn't. It's repugnant bullsh1t. It seeks to draw a direct correlation between doping and depression. If the former leads to the latter, then maybe we can assume the the latter is an indication of the former.

    It stigmatises depression as a symptom of doping, rather than an affliction suffered by many.

    The writer is someone with a track record of doping gossip mongering and now, with this article, she has invited us to compare riders who admit depression with know dopers such as Pantani and Vandenbrocke. The resulting nudges and winks from the self-appointed guardians of the sport may discourage those that need help from asking for it.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,651
    RichN95 wrote:
    The thing with writing about depression is that unless you are a mental health professional or writing from experience then you would be well advised to steer clear of the subject. There's enough misinformation on the subject as it is without adding half-baked theories and 100 year old stories to the pile.

    This is dead on Rich.
  • jerry3571jerry3571 Posts: 1,532
    They say that exercising outside gives almost the same benefit as using a drug like Prozac so people who are a more depressive type may use this type of exercise as a subconscious aid to their problems. If they are good at the Sport they may progress to the top. I am rubbish when I'm not riding.
    I take a steroid nasal spray and inhaler and have problems with sores around my mouth and the Doc says it could easily be a side effect of using steroids. The junk that Pro Cyclists use and have used must have some serious side effects and I have wondered how these riders function as I get all sorts of side effects from different Prescription drugs. Inhalers also gives me the shakes for starters.
    Also being well known and the adulation of fans, to then go to a non de script, anonymous retirement must bring it's problems. It's tricky if that ending comes from being banned and thrown out in disgrace. I guess a retired ex doper may feel as though they were playing the game by doping and why should they be made a scapegoat for the sport.
    I knew someone who was a small time pro in France and he hated it. The Manager was like a dictator and he was constantly on the limit and always told he was too fat. One instance, this guy was in a break in a race where the sponsor had turned up. The break was caught and this rider was dropped by the main peleton and the Manager berated this guy for getting dropped in front of the Sponsor.

    Being a bike rider isn't all glamour for sure and it's a hard life.
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein

    "You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
    -Jacques Anquetil
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,562
    Did you notice that she couldnt write an article without getting at least one sly dig in at DB and Sky. The hypocrocy of that woman really does know no bounds...

    I like kindles and everything but one of their major drawbacks of ebooks is that any numbskull can get anything published now...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,262
    RichN95 wrote:
    The thing with writing about depression is that unless you are a mental health profession or writing for experience then you would be well advised to steer clear of the subject. There's enough misinformation on the subject as it is without adding half-baked theories and 100 year old stories to the pile.

    ^This x1000

    and another x1000
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • EDIT: I'm not on twitter, should I sign up?

    Only if you want to look at pictures of cats.

    and I do !!!!
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Some of the reactions here are as unhinged as dispatches from die-hard doperati. Viewing everything someone does through the narrow prism of 2012's Postalgate wars is as blinkered as denying that superior coaching can produce superior athletes.

    There's plenty to criticise: causal links and bandwagon-hitching in particular. But accusations of hypocrisy (is it so hard to spell?) are too extreme. Congratulations to Ambassador Micron for smuggling some of the sport's evocative myths on her wagon.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 14,412
    I don't mean to go there but I was surprised that "Despite the smirks and knowing winks that greet the phrase ‘marginal gains’" wasn't edited out. Unnecessary in the article and doesn't seem too far removed from Sally Bercow's "*innocent face*"

    Macaloon wrote:
    But accusations of hypocrisy (is it so hard to spell?) are too extreme.

    Not sure. The passage below certainly sticks in the craw.

    "Imagine being 22 year old Jonathan Breyne, positive for Clenbuterol after a failed test in China, unable to eat because you have no appetite, making yourself ill as your world falls apart around your ears, the only world you’ve ever known, driven to attempt suicide because of comments on internet forums. Or Mauro Santambrogio, turned pro at 20, working in a night bakery, alone with your darkest thoughts, tweeting your suicide note. Imagine having hundreds and thousands of words, of scathing comments forensically dissecting your worst decisions, your biggest mistakes."
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,562
    Yeah, I'm sorry macca but I have to side with TWH here. If she was writing something ground breaking then it would be better, but there's nothing new or surprising about top athletes and depression. Radio 5 pump out a podcast a month or so on the subject...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 14,412
    UK Cycling Expert ‏@ukcyclingexpert 1h
    I haven't done any scientific research into the effect of beards in the peleton but I've got loads of anecdotes so I'm sure of my facts!!
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Not sure. The passage below certainly sticks in the craw.

    Me neither. In 2012 I would be more likely to take a fundamentalist view. I think it's a cleaner landscape now so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    UK Cycling Expert ‏@ukcyclingexpert 1h
    I haven't done any scientific research into the effect of beards in the peloton but I've got loads of anecdotes so I'm sure of my facts!!

    You could see this as precisely the kind of inhumane snark that FG stands accused of (not directed at TWH). I'm sure the real journalists will get their fair share of the expanding cake.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,174
    mfin wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    The thing with writing about depression is that unless you are a mental health professional or writing from experience then you would be well advised to steer clear of the subject. There's enough misinformation on the subject as it is without adding half-baked theories and 100 year old stories to the pile.

    This is dead on Rich.

    It's one of the most on-the-money posts in these fora for quite some time. And I consider that quite an accolade as we have some very intelligent contributors.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,562
    Macaloon wrote:
    UK Cycling Expert ‏@ukcyclingexpert 1h
    I haven't done any scientific research into the effect of beards in the peloton but I've got loads of anecdotes so I'm sure of my facts!!

    You could see this as precisely the kind of inhumane snark that FG stands accused of (not directed at TWH). I'm sure the real journalists will get their fair share of the expanding cake.

    I think the difference is that UKCylingExpert is a well defined comedy tweeter. There is no real danger of people taking it seriously. However festinagirl/micron/Suze Clemitson is trying to establish herself as a serious writer writing serious articles. That requires that she seperate herself from the snark of the doperati - of which she is a founder member - but as we can even see in the same article, she can't stop herself from snidely accusing a team with no serious evidence against them, of cheating.

    She can't have it both ways...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • CrankbrotherCrankbrother Posts: 1,695
    She's the literary equivalent of an X Factor contestant ...
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