Would this wheelset be safe/feasible for a 180lb rider?

desweller

Having read all that the conclusion I've come to is...you're overthinking it. If you haven't got the maths to analyse the structure of the wheel then you're just going to tie yourself in knots trying to do it, because they are not intuitive things.

It's just a bicycle wheel. Seriously. For your type of rider you are not going to get a significant performance difference between a 32-spoke Open Pro on Shimano 105 hubs and the fragile wheels you're considering. If you were worrying about being 10 seconds behind the leader on a long climb then maybe it would be worth it.

32-spoke wheels are stronger in use and easier to build, a particular consideration for a first timer.

Manc33

Too late now. :P

I will report back on what they are like, I promise.

I just read some post somewhere of a 195lb guy riding around on a 16/20 setup on what he called a "singletrack".

I honestly think they will be fine lol.

*footballer shrug*

Don't forget that shop has a 2 year warranty... as long as you're still alive for them to honor it. :twisted:

I don't race, but I am weak and want to get up hills without having to stop. When I descend I never go over 35 MPH, avoid potholes, never go on trails. You could take 10 people with bikes (not cyclists, just people with bikes) and the clumsiest one will have the gear and brake cables all snapped, a buckled wheel, foam grips splitting on the bars because they grip on so hard... my mate is like that... then you have the other end of the scale where every care is taken on the bike. No one can judge this, the shops selling the wheels certainly can't.

I lend my mate my bike and he can ruin it in 30 minutes, seriously. I only say that because it has happened in the past. He absolutely thrashes them. :evil:

ugo.santalucia

47p2 wrote:

I keep reading this but don't know the reason why these spokes shouldn't be used on rear wheels, can someone enlighten me please?

Not stiff enough... read here

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... -stiffness

Manc33

Ugo after reading that I can see what you mean about Sapim Lasers. They are neither normally round, or aero, but are round and thin in the middle.

Was going to go out on my bike today but it appears to be horizontally raining outside.

One thing with these wheels is I hope to drop 2lbs a week off my body so I might weigh 180lb now but I hope to get down to 150lb eventually, I am at 28% body fat now and I want it to be 8% so... knocking 20% off 180lbs = 30lb-35lb of fat needs to burn off. Thats going to take me 15 weeks minimum.

ai_1

Manc33 wrote:

.....I don't race, but I am weak and want to get up hills without having to stop. When I descend I never go over 35 MPH, avoid potholes, never go on trails.....

Sounds like you might be better off spending the money on a wide range cassette (and medium or long cage rear derailleur if needed). I doubt very much that a couple of hundred grams of wheel weight is ever going to be the difference between continuing or stopping. On the other hand if you're over-geared for your fitness level, weight and the steepness of the hills you're tackling then that could certainly make the difference. The fact that you don't ride fast makes this more attractive since you don't really need an 11 speed sprocket.
Also, are you perhaps being a little paranoid about punctures? I weigh a little more than you at about 88kg and I've used a set of Continental 4 Seasons for the past 5000km with just a single puncture. I don't think I've had more than 5 punctures in the 3 years since I started cycling. Going to this amount of trouble to get very lightweight wheels and taking chances on reliability doesn't make sense if you're going to use heavy armoured tyres. If you're going to give up reliability for weight, do it with the tyres not the wheels. The risks and costs are smaller but the benefits are probably bigger.

ugo.santalucia

Manc33 wrote:

One thing with these wheels is I hope to drop 2lbs a week off my body so I might weigh 180lb now but I hope to get down to 150lb eventually, I am at 28% body fat now and I want it to be 8% so... knocking 20% off 180lbs = 30lb-35lb of fat needs to burn off. Thats going to take me 15 weeks minimum.

It doesn't work like that... you will never get to 8% body fat, that's the body fat of a competitive athlete. When you lose weight, you don't lose 100% fat... even fat tissue contains water for instance.
Also, you have to be realistic about weight loss... 2 lbs a week cannot be sustained for a long period

47p2

ugo.santalucia wrote:

47p2 wrote:

I keep reading this but don't know the reason why these spokes shouldn't be used on rear wheels, can someone enlighten me please?

Not stiff enough... read here

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... -stiffness

Thanks for the link ugo, now for your opinion please

Hope Pro3 hubs laced to Ambrosio Excellight S.S.C. 28H rims with Laser spokes for a 60kg/61kg rider, would that work?

ai_1

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Manc33 wrote:

One thing with these wheels is I hope to drop 2lbs a week off my body so I might weigh 180lb now but I hope to get down to 150lb eventually, I am at 28% body fat now and I want it to be 8% so... knocking 20% off 180lbs = 30lb-35lb of fat needs to burn off. Thats going to take me 15 weeks minimum.

It doesn't work like that... you will never get to 8% body fat, that's the body fat of a competitive athlete. When you lose weight, you don't lose 100% fat... even fat tissue contains water for instance.
Also, you have to be realistic about weight loss... 2 lbs a week cannot be sustained for a long period

Yep, 2lbs per week seems overambitious to me too and I think aiming that high is likely to be counterproductive. Look this up yourself as I may be remembering incorrectly but I believe high rates of weight loss trigger food cravings, making it very hard to sustain and also makes your body sacrifice material other than fat which you may not want to lose. Also high rates of weight loss tend to result in a bounce back up once you reach target and relax. That's why fad diets NEVER work - they're just a scam for idiots. I think about 500g/week is the generally accepted rule of thumb for sustainable weight loss. If you're in reasonable shape already then even that might be a little high.

ugo.santalucia

47p2 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

47p2 wrote:

I keep reading this but don't know the reason why these spokes shouldn't be used on rear wheels, can someone enlighten me please?

Not stiff enough... read here

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... -stiffness

Thanks for the link ugo, now for your opinion please

Hope Pro3 hubs laced to Ambrosio Excellight S.S.C. 28H rims with Laser spokes for a 60kg/61kg rider, would that work?

All I can say is that I started building wheels because I had a rear 28 H built with DT revolution (70 Kg). They started to snap after roughly 400 miles and when the third did snap in succession, I took the matter into my own hands, rebuilt it with DT comp not really knowing much about building wheels and it never gave me any problem.
The original came with a piece of paper with all sorts of logos and metallic anti-counterfeit stuff with the signature of the guy who built it...
At the time I thought: fucx that, it's all crap, anyone can build a decent wheel...

So, to answer your question, probably yes, but I wouldn't.
Use some Alpina DB, they are not a lot heavier at about 6 grams for the length you need... otherwise if you want them I have some of the bladed Alpina mentioned on the blog in the size you need for a 2 cross...

47p2

Thanks for the reply ugo, I'll have a think about it

cycleclinic

This laser thing is getting over egged. Laser can be used on rear wheels, nearly of my wheels including some MTB one have Laser spokes. To over come the stiffness issue a higher spoke count or a stiffer rim can be used. Yes Race/Comps spokes are more sensible but it does depend on the type of wheel you are aiming for.

None of my rear wheels or front for that matter break spokes. My own have 28 Laser spokes at the back and light rims. I believe I am on the heavy side for such wheels but they work for me - not for everyone though.

Use the spoke that you feel most comfortable with for a first built that will probbaly be a Race or comp spoke they are easier to work with. But lets not put a blanket ban of there use, Laser spokes have there place but not in every rear wheel, it all depends what you are aiming for.

Also if you want a wheel that will 20,000 miles you are looking at the wrong rims to begin with and that is my point. You are vering toward a sensible relaible build now with sensible spokes so why not use a senisible rim. I see no point in using very light rims and weighing it all down with Race spokes and brass nipple. The whole point of the XR-200 rims is to build not very sensible sub 1400g wheels. If you want sensible then use a H plus Archetype, Velocity A23, Kinlin XC-279, Mavic Open Pro anything but the XR-200.

If you want very light then use XR-200 Laser spokes and alloy nipples and take the risk, I do not feel it is a big one if the are built properly and you are light enough but you on the heavy side for such a wheelset so the risk it there of spokes breaking or the wheel going out of true. So would I recomend the wheelset you proposed no, not for you.

the Alpina DB spoke is a good comprimise between the Laser and Race spoke, so that is senible, oh we are back to senible again.

Manc33

I was originally looking at the XR-200 (385g) but chose that Alexrims R380 (435g) in the end.

At 13% (50g per rim) heavier than the XR-200 I reckon its a better bet. Its not the rims that worry me on those Alexrims R380 its the Laser spokes.

Ai_1 wrote:

Sounds like you might be better off spending the money on a wide range cassette (and medium or long cage rear derailleur if needed).

Already has got them on. :P

Was one of the first things I did to the bike, took the 12-25T off and put a 11-32T on with an Alivio rear mech.

My lowest gear then is 30F/32R and I have even bought a 28T inner ring because even 30F/32R is still too hard to pedal up a 12% incline for more than 250M.

Tried that old Deore XT mech I had (1993) and while it coped with the 32T sprocket, it was not changing properly from the 11T to the 12T which I guess is because 11T sprockets didn't exist in 1993? The gear changes were worse than the Alivio, but it was also considerably stiffer to change gear than the Alivio.

Ai_1 wrote:

Also, are you perhaps being a little paranoid about punctures? I weigh a little more than you at about 88kg and I've used a set of Continental 4 Seasons for the past 5000km with just a single puncture.

If you had said "not one single puncture" I wouldn't be so paranoid. :P

Those M+ are stupidly heavy I agree, nearly 600g per tyre, triple what they could be. Grip is crap on them as well, I was wheel spinning the other night setting off up that hill in the lowest gear. 8) With bear trap pedals as well lol, fortunately my feet stayed on them.

desweller

May I ask what experience it was that has made you so averse to replacing inner tubes? I mean, they're annoying but not that annoying...

cycleclinic

If you are worried then don't use them but the stiffer the rim get the more viable they get but still I would not suggest them on a 24 spoke rear wheel unless the rim is a stiff as a XR-300 or velocity deep V and even then you should be light. I am not sure of the spoke count you wheels have but let us know how you get on.

Manc33

thecycleclinic wrote:

If you are worried then don't use them but the stiffer the rim get the more viable they get but still I would not suggest them on a 24 spoke rear wheel unless the rim is a stiff as a XR-300 or velocity deep V and even then you should be light. I am not sure of the spoke count you wheels have but let us know how you get on.

They are 20/24.

Its hard to find info on the hubs. Says they are "Icon" hubs.

Is this one?



Because of the weight of the wheelset and knowing what the spokes/nipples/rims are, I worked the hubs out to be something like 53g front (impossible?) and 214g rear. Both wheel weights are listed separately - 590g front and 770g rear. Added together those hubs "in theory" weigh 267g which seems normal for two, if they used something like that Ultralight 190g rear and that 71g one (Velocity?) on the front.

Going off rim weight the Alexrims R380 is 30g lighter than the XR-300 but 50g heavier than the XR-200.

rolf_f

DesWeller wrote:

May I ask what experience it was that has made you so averse to replacing inner tubes? I mean, they're annoying but not that annoying...

Indeed. If I was that worried, I'd just spend some time at home practicing inner tube swaps using the pump I carry with me. But it isn't really that bad. Punctures don't happen often if you are careful and maintain your tyres and you don't have to resort to the horror that is the Marathon Plus to minimise them.

Personally, I favour jabbing my eyes out with pencils over using Marathon Plus as a more pleasant means of minimising punctures!

Manc33

Wheelset arrived today, took 24H to get here, thats hours, not holes. :P

- Alexrims R380 rims
- Superstar Icon hubs
- Sapim Laser spokes (20/24)

Heard a few light creaks with the first few revolutions sat on it, but those odd light creaks went away almost straight away. Hubs are very smooth on this, front wheel spins forever.

Went down a kerb on purpose trying to break them lol, if they are gonna break let it be right now and not somewhere miles away.

Did a few tests like getting into the lowest gear and suddenly accelerating, doing that in a few low gears, they seem perfectly adequate to me.

Now at last we get to find out what those Triban 3 wheels weigh. 8)

Both were weighed normally - hub, spokes, nipples, rim and rim tape.

Front Triban 3 wheel was 947g.
Rear Triban 3 wheel was 1180g.

The new Alexrims R380 wheelset...

Front Alexrims wheel is 612g.
Rear Alexrims wheel is 795g.

Triban 3 wheelset = 2127g (with rim tape)
Alexrims wheelset = 1407g (with rim tape)

I am really happy with these wheels up to now, despite being lighter than the standard Triban 3 wheels, they appear to be built well enough. Gonna do a bit more testing tomorrow - under 15 MPH.

These appear to be a complete bargain. Overall weight saved on the standard wheels is -720g! I noticed it straight away, accelerating is easier.

Old wheels were about 2100g and these about 1400g so its pretty much bang on 2/3 of the weight of the old wheels.

I checked the trueness of the wheels after trying them out, they were the same as when I went out. So they are at least usable but I need to give them a proper test.

cycleclinic

Maybe me a ugo are just to censervative if these work out. Or maybe they are fine now but not fine 5000 miles down the line. Let us know in 5000 miles please. I hope they work out for you I really do.

Manc33

thecycleclinic wrote:

Maybe me a ugo are just to censervative if these work out. Or maybe they are fine now but not fine 5000 miles down the line. Let us know in 5000 miles please. I hope they work out for you I really do.

Might be on a whole other build by then. I guess if I was I would be swapping these wheels onto the new build.

5000 miles... I hope you realise it will take me about 5 years to do that. :P

I got a MTB in July 2010 (joined BikeRadar at that time too!) and my odometer currently says 2471 miles. So thats in 3 years 5 months.

1.94 miles per day that averages.

When the weather improves and I have tested these wheels a lot more I will tackle Snake Pass again at some point.

Guys, since I have been going up this steep hill near my house (over and over again) I didn;t get as tired pumping up my tyres today, its the little things you notice. I remember years ago back when I had far more energy, I ran upstairs in the morning and my mate said "How can you run up stairs like that at this time sheesh" and thought nothing of it lol. Of course this was a guy that did zero cardio, he wasn't fat or lazy, he just never got out of breath doing anything.

Guys, if I suddenly stop posting you'll know why. Or you'll see the news report "Biker found in ditch with broken heart, wheelset to blame" then a short story about how I thought you could have a strong, light and cheap component.

I can only say what I said before about individual riding style, I wouldn't dream of using these wheels for Cyclocross, maybe if I was 40lb lighter. Might go hunting for the nearest cobbled road tomorrow to give the wheels a proper testing.

Manc33

Guys, my Marathon Plus say 115PSI on them and initially I had them at that pressure.

I can't even remember why but I started putting them at 100 PSI, probably the ride.

The tyre says 115 PSI on the side. What should they be running at?

I saw a chart for Marathon Plus tyres once, I am sure it said something like 60 PSI gives the same rolling resistance as 80 or 90.

With 1400g wheels and me being 172lb (not 180, must have dieted and not even realized!) should I let some air out (from them being 100 PSI) to give my wheels an easier ride? Lowering to 60 seems crazy, but at 100 they grip badly as well, especially in the wet.

I wish I could find that chart, it had tyre pressure on the left and rolling resistance at the bottom with a line, after 60+ there was like a straight line as if to say after 60 PSI you're barely getting any more rolling resistance. These are weird tyres with that 5mm strip in them.

I found this that talks of a similar-ish build to my wheels...
http://durhamcycles.com/wheel-review-ve ... pro-build/

hypster

I have 25mm Marathon Pluses on my Winter training bike and run them at 80 psi; I am 187 lbs. They roll nicely, feel good and grip well enough but I don't take any chances with the slimy roads at the moment.

cycleclinic

115 is max safe pressure. for 25mm tyres use 100 psi max but you can run lower.

I thought you said you were 195lb! That is a big change down to 172lbs. Hell the wheels will probably survive now.

Manc33

No I never said I was 195lb :P That was some guy on some web page I read who said he has a 16/20 spoke setup with Sapim Laser spokes on and said he "abused" it around a singletrack loop for several hours including jumping off a 6" ledge over and over again, accelerating hard after tight turns etc.

When I said I was 180lbs I did think I was no less than 175lb, but no more than 180lb, so said 180lb to be on the safer side. Last night I was 172lb lol.

Guys, I am not going to do this but what would happen if I sat on the handlebars fully, with 172lbs directly above the front hub, would the front wheel just collapse? :!: Just wondering because when I stand up hill climbing I lean forward over the bars normally, maybe there's no mechanical advantage to that, but it does feel like there is. I lean forwards a lot though.

The wheels are running on 20 year old inner tubes with patches on them at the moment, aero rim was too deep for the normal 40mm valves. Gonna order three Schwalbe ones today, 60mm valve with a screw thread.

Here's what I noticed about these wheels, you can flex it left and right near the brake pads, not a lot, but you can. Such a thing isn't possible with heavy road wheels or MTB wheels.

The braking is better with these than my original rims, but I guess thats just the shiny new metal surface.

I got some Kool-Stop Salmon and must have done at least 50 miles on them (same route x 12 including descending a steep hill) and the line that goes down the middle of the brake pads has still not even worn off yet! People buying those pads often think because they work well in the wet they are soft and will wear down... but they are unbelievably hard wearing. I guess this is why they cost more than Dura Ace pads.

Saying that the original B'Twin pads were good. Still a lot of life left in those after about 1000 miles (I must literally never brake lol) and they were perfectly adequate at stopping you. Pretty much any direction you go in from my house you're going up a hill. Sat up on flat bars all the time acts as an air brake.

cycleclinic

Well I just mis read the post. That never helps.

Manc33

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well I just mis read the post. That never helps.

Sorry, I type far too much. :oops:

Just had a quick 7 minute spin on the wheels, including going up a 12% hill in the 28F/32R lowest gear, it was fine. Only heard one "creak" from a spoke on the front wheel (going about 12-15 MPH on the flat) but nothing went bad.

I have realised the bearings on my original Triban 3 rear wheel have had it, feels all "lumpy" when I turn the wheel. Most people seem to say the wheels is where Decathlon saved the most money with that bike.

On the new wheels it seems to roll forever. I remember Ugo saying bearings are often small in these light hubs, will keep it in mind on these new hubs.

Here's something I found odd, the site I got those wheels sells the Icon hubs separately and they say the rear hub is 283g and the front hub is 83g. Combined that makes the two hubs work out to 366g.

Now lets take the wheelset weight of 1407g and take off 366g = 1041g.

The rims are 435g each so take off another 870g for those and we are left with 171g.

Now I have 44 Sapim Laser spokes @ 4.5g per spoke lets say, so take off another (4.5g x 44) = 198g we are now left with MINUS 27g!

Now take from that -27g another 14g for the 44 alloy nipples and we arrive at -41g.

So I think they have the weight of that rear hub wrong. 283g sounds like a lot if the wheels are 1407g in total. Maybe if we take that 41g off the 283g that is the real weight of the rear hub - 242g. Still sounds too heavy on a 1400g build.

If I was buying the components separately I would have plumped for that Ultralight 190g rear hub.

Folks, have components this light always been available this cheap? Is ALL this stuff just crap?! Or are they actually able now to supply it?

Manc33

Just done my standard route on the new wheels, broke my previous personal best.

2013-12-26 = 24 mins 25 secs (-44 secs)
2013-12-20 = 25 mins 09 secs (+23 secs)
2013-12-17 = 24 mins 46 secs (-22 secs)
2013-12-16 = 25 mins 08 secs (-25 secs)
2013-12-15 = 25 mins 33 secs (+40 secs)
2013-12-13 = 24 mins 53 secs (-29 secs)
2013-12-11 = 25 mins 22 secs (-23 secs)
2013-12-10 = 25 mins 45 secs (-9 secs)
2013-12-09 = 25 mins 54 secs (-4 secs)
2013-12-08 = 25 mins 58 secs (-90 secs)
2013-12-07 = 27 mins 28 secs (+85 secs)
2013-12-06 = 26 mins 03 secs (-21 secs)

---

2013-12-04 = 26 mins 24 secs

Not bad considering I have not been on the bike for 6 days and all I have eaten over Christmas was kebabs and pizzas. I did 11.3 MPH average tonight, previous best was 11.1 MPH so to get a whopping 0.2 MPH more in one go - for me at least - is amazing.

Was it the lighter wheels or was it the 28T granny ring, we will never know.

I know this ride is under 30 minutes and you might think "what the hell" but it is gruelling for me. Going up that hill in the lowest gear my heart rate gets up to 189 (at 37 years old). It is only half an hour but it is hell for me getting up that hill.

Manc33

Thought I heard a spoke snap at the back tonight but it wasn't a spoke, I think a small twig flicked up a few spokes and got tossed aside, the noise of it made me cringe when I heard it.

Later on I thought a front spoke had gone, could feel something on my foot in that gap where your tongue is on your shoe... but again it was a twig.

I have done about 20 or 30 miles on these wheels now (Alexrims R380 / Icon Race hubs / 20/24 Sapim Laser / Black alloy nipples, 1407g, £190, 175lb rider) and they have held up and stayed true, including going over potholes at about 30 MPH (hard to avoid in the dark on a 13%+ decline!). Thank the lord for Kool-Stop Salmon.

God I would love to have a road bike with disc brakes.

Because of these wheels everywhere I go now I go faster, the effect of it is better than I expected. I end up whizzing along wondering how because I am only using the same effort I normally do.

At a guess I would say this has made my average speed go from about 10.8 MPH to 11.4 MPH. Not been on a longer ride yet to know what the benefits are over a longer distance. Been making certain my wheels are going to hold up before I go too far to walk back from it. Its not that I don't feel safe on 20 spokes at the front but if just one breaks it makes a 20cm gap in the spokes. :shock:

desweller

Good luck. I've just come a cropper with a broken spoke on an allegedly robust handbuilt wheel.

It's the rear wheel you need to worry about, not the front. You can get pretty sloppy with building front wheels and still get away with it...the rear is compromised by being dished to accomodate the cassette and then it takes all the punishment as well.

ugo.santalucia

DesWeller wrote:

Good luck. I've just come a cropper with a broken spoke on an allegedly robust handbuilt wheel.

Yeah, well, as discussed in the thread, Planet X builds leave a lot to be desired... and rightly so, when you pay for UK built wheels less than the sum of the parts from the same retailer... :roll:

Moonbiker

How are you getting on with theese wheels?