Would this wheelset be safe/feasible for a 180lb rider?

Manc33

I think I worked out a 1300g wheelset for about £175. :shock:

Sounds impossible I know, but is it even feasible to build a wheelset this "weak"?

FRONT HUB - UltraLight Front Road Hub, 24 holes - 66 grams (£31)
REAR HUB - UL190 UltraLight Rear Hub, 28 holes - 190 Grams (£56)

FRONT RIM - Kinlin XR-200 Clincher 22mm, 24 holes - 383 grams (£25)
REAR RIM - Kinlin XR-200 Clincher 22mm, 28 holes - 383 grams (£25)

NIPPLES - Sapim 12mm Brass Poly-Ax 14G Black - 50 grams (£7)
SPOKES - Sapim Laser 14 gauge (x52) - 234 grams - (£32)

COST: £176

WEIGHT: 1306g

Everything listed above is from "bikehubstore.com" and all prices were in US dollars and converted to GBP. So there's probably going to be a bit of postage on all of this and possibly customs (can't see it though for an unbuilt wheel).

If you hunt around I think you could probably find these parts even cheaper.

If I switched to alloy nipples it would make the wheelset even lighter - about 1276g.

Thing is pretty much everything I have read says avoid alloy nipples, you can build a wheel and its all fine, but truing the wheel one day you'll strip the alloy if you tighten too much. Maybe if I was racing, but to save 30g (brass = 50g, alloy = 20g) it's not worth it.

I am about 180lbs though, I wonder if those wheels would hold up.

Initially I worked out a wheelset that was 1503g @ £228 so I am getting somewhere lol.

I expect someone will say "Unless you've got 32 spokes on those, forget it" No because they don't make those ultralight hubs in a 32H version. If they "must" be 32H then I can't realistically have these built.

rolf_f

Search Cycleclinics posts for plenty about this sort of wheel. I'm very tempted. But I weigh 132 lbs and you know what the answer to this is - you are too heavy for these wheels.

Incidentally, US customs aren't really interested in whether or not your wheel is built up. Best bet is to just assume the dollar price for your parts is the price you pay in pounds. Cycleclinic charges about £300 delivered for the complete wheelset.

nochekmate

Contact Ugo or Cycleclinic on the forum for advice - they'll comment shortly anyway I would imagine. What about having to factor in the build costs (or are you DIY?)

Manc33

nochekmate wrote:

Contact Ugo or Cycleclinic on the forum for advice - they'll comment shortly anyway I would imagine. What about having to factor in the build costs (or are you DIY?)

I would have to get them built up.

Its a bit of a pipe dream at the moment. :oops:

Currently though, my front wheel (Triban 3) on its own weighs more than this wheelset would.

I think going up to a 450g rim might make it safe @ 180lbs. Those "SL" ones, can't remember the name. Then I am adding 65g per rim to it (385g per rim would be going up to 450g per rim) meaning +130g overall, making it about 1436g.

From what I have read it is far better to go for those 450g rims and stop crying about the weight of them over the 385g rims.

Another thing I read someone said "Long gone are the days of 300g aluminium rims" you mean they ever existed? I guess they were like hula hoops.

So for a rider at 180lbs it seems the bear minimum is a 450g rim.

Initially I was all "carbon carbon carbon" but for the weight saving (which is sometimes zero) it doesn't seem worth it, wouldn't even use side pull brakes with them so then I would need disc brakes meaning a disc fork and frame, the calipers... not worth it just to have carbon wheels. Plus I can't see them being under £300 a pair, albeit built up.

giant_man

You'll be paying customs charges on those wheels, built up or not, be sure of that, and VAT of course.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/internet.htm

Manc33

Says here for the Stans "340g" rim they upped their strength rating from 2 to 3

http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/blog/201 ... a-340-rims

Its never ending.

EDIT: Bloody tubulars.

EDIT 2: That say clincher. A clincher rim made by a company called "No Tubes" hmmm.

EDIT 3: The "Alpha 340" weighs 385g just the same as the Kinlin XR-200. Sneaky calling it a "340". :P

rolf_f

This would be less confusing if you didn't keep posting similar threads in different places in different sub forums.....

And what is wrong with No Tubes making a clincher rim? Maybe you are confusing tubular with tubeless?

ugo.santalucia

I think we have commented about these on the workshop section...

Anyway, a few points

1) There are at least two top builders in the country who refuse to use Sapim Laser on rear wheels, both Wheelsmith and Harry Rowland don't use them, I don't use them either. There are reasonably light spokes like Alpina DB that can be used.
2) Budget super light hubs are likely to deform over time, resulting in play that cannot be removed... that is of course more likely to happen for heavier riders
3) I think at your weight you should draw a sensible line around 1600 grams if you go handbuilt and 1500 if you go for a factory wheelset (Ksyrium Elite, Campagnolo Zonda etc... will still be fine for you)
4) the search for the ultimate lightweight set of wheels is a certain disappointment, as they will not be any good for you and the RIGHT set of wheels will perform better. The right set of wheels for you is NOT a set that weighs 1200 grams.

Someone mentioned Stan's 340... these are no longer the cheese made 340 grams ones, they're now close to 400 and just over 400 for the non machined ones... I've just built a set for myself, here:

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... tmas-build

buckles

Obsession with weight leads to eating disorders such as anorexia.

Grill

Buckles wrote:

Obsession with weight leads to eating disorders such as anorexia.

I know. My poor Wyndy has a terrible case of it.

Manc33

Cheers Ugo.

On ProWheelBuilder, the Stans ones have a strength rating of 3 compared to the Kinlin XR-200 that have a strength rating of 2. Then again the Stans cost more.

I have still got some lightweight rims on a touring bike, but the hub is not QR (no way could I go back to nuts!) and it has no freewheel on the hub, the freewheel is in the cassette. Those wheels are about 20 years old but I know they are strong enough and light.

Wolber Super Champion Model 58

No idea what those rims weight but they are vastly lighter than what's on my Triban 3 as stock.

Maybe I could dismantle them and use those rims, those spokes and I just need the 2 hubs, but of course the spokes would just-so-happen to have to fit, or else I need a set of spokes.

I will take the front off, take the tyre off and weigh it. Can't even weigh the back because I have no clue how you get those cassettes off that have the freewheel inside the cassette.

ugo.santalucia

Wolber rims were silly light... I had a set of Profil 18 that weighed 300 grams each... by modern standards a bit on the fragile side... difficult to build well with highly dished wheels, they were OK with lower dish, as lower tension on the DS was enough

You need a freewheel remover, it's no different form a lockring tool, just different splines and you need a big adjustable spanner or a bench vice

Manc33

Just weighed the Wolber Super Champion Model 58 front wheel and it was about the same as the Mavic M3CD, around 1000g/1050g.

Those Wolber were/are on a Pennine touring bike, that is the bike I still hold my personal record on lol, managed to average 14 MPH on it. :oops: On my Triban with drop bars it was about 13 MPH. On it with flat bars its about 11.5 MPH and on my Rockrider 5.2 (32lb FS MTB) it was about 9.5 MPH.

Dunno what it is about the Pennine but you just want to give it some when you're on it. Its lighter than my Triban 3 as well, its about 21lb I think. The funny thing is that Pennine is a real bone shaker compared to my Triban, when the Triban is aluminium and the Pennine is Reynolds 531 steel. I guess tech has come a long way, after all that Pennine is a 1960s frame. Hell it might even be from the late 50s. Was gonna use that Pennine but just can't be ar*** with all the ancient sizes on everything, no STi shifters, no quick release etc.

cycleclinic

You are on the verge of being to heavy for these wheels as am I. I ride wheels like this and get away with (using sapim Lasers all round and the same rims on similar hubs) but I would not expect everyone of this weight to get away with it either. So you may be fine on them then again you may not. I generally think rider under 75kg will be O.K (rider up 80kg can be fine). Riding style can have a big influence on well wheels like this work out as well.

I would consider the stans 340 and the kinlin rim to be about as reliable as each other - I can't see how one is "stronger". The kinlin XR-200 is quite an easy rim to build with but I am used to them as well. They hold 1200N just like heavier rims and are very round.

As for laser being unreliable on rear wheels it depends, they can be fine but in general they need stiff rims or light riders, so heavier riders and light rim are not a good combo for laser's but you knew that anyway. They are not suitable on every rear wheel. Ugo mentions that Wheelsmith does not use the Laser spoke on his rear wheels, true but he uses alot of Sapim CX-rays in his Race wheelsets which are not as stiff, have the same weight as a Laser and the same diameter at the elbow. So from a fatigue perspective a CX-ray is not better than a Laser spoke. Where a CX-ray is used a Laser can be subsituted and you get actually get a slightly stiffer wheel.

The difference in stiffness between a CX-ray and Laser spoke is highlighted by the Tension gauge. At 1200N on the DT tensio and DT comp/Sapim Race shows a deflection of 1.97, and Sapim/Laser/rev shows a delfection of 1.41 and the CX-ray 0.5. The way the gauge works the stiffer the spoke the higher the delfection reading so the difference is large.

I do think for a wheelset you know will be reliable pick another rim like the H plus Archetype, DT Swiss RR440, velocity A23 or the Kinlin XC-279. There are other two that some in 24H/28H. Mate these to hubs of your choice and if the rims are stiff enough Laser should be fine all round but if it your first time building them you will find it alot easier with a thicker gauge spoke. Wheels in the 1500g range are easily possible.

However if you are careful with the build and are careful when riding and do not care if you get a spoke problem then give the build ago. There is only one way you will ever find out what you will get away with and is to build silly wheels that everyone says should not work (I am also saying they might not work) and see. However

pastey_boy

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_ ... 568ca74111

Manc33

pastey_boy wrote:

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=834&osCsid=db74334n49v3lts0568ca74111

That has to be the winner up to now, hands down.

1360g @ £190 already built :shock:

I am speechless. They are even in the UK as well so, no import duty.

Either:

1. The price is a misprint.
2. The wheels are diabolically weak.
3. A miracle is taking place.

I wonder if those would be better suited to a 180lb/80KG rider than the ones in the OP (UltraLight Hubs / Kinlin XR-200 rims / Sapim Laser / brass nips)

Those Stans are purportedly a bit stronger than the Kinlin XR-200 but they are nearly 4x the price of the Kinlin from what I can see.

I ride around potholes if that makes any difference lol. That doesn't mean I won't hit one one day. I ride the same route so much I know where every rough bit is, but on a road I have never been on I would have to be super vigilent and to be honest, saving 200g or whatever, to then be paranoid the whole time, isn't worth it.

Right now my wheels are about 2500g-3000g I think, so to get them down to 1300g-1400g would be a massive difference. I was tempted by those Shimano R501 C30's that are £99 at CRC but they are 1900g (exactly 1900g). If I got those I would always be wondering what wheels 500g lighter feel like.

47p2

ugo.santalucia wrote:

1) There are at least two top builders in the country who refuse to use Sapim Laser on rear wheels

I keep reading this but don't know the reason why these spokes shouldn't be used on rear wheels, can someone enlighten me please?

Manc33

That "Alexrims R380 Icon Race Wheelset 20/24" from http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_ ... 568ca74111 says under it...

"Build in the UK with the finest Sapim Laser spokes and black alloy nipples, there are no corners cut to reduce quality"

Sapim Laser spokes and alloy nipples.

So they have two things I keep reading to avoid. Might just "sod it" and get them, breaking your neck can't hurt that much...

But seriously, do alloy nipples "always" strip when you tighten a bit too much? People argue brass ones do as well and the argument never ends. One guy said he has been doing DH MTB'ing for 10 years on alloy nipples. Yeah but its when you go to true it weeks later you get the alloy nipples shredding the thread, or so I read.

pastey_boy

I set out to build a lightweight but strong pair of wheels to take my 100kg plus weight. In the end I settled on a pair of American Classic hubs, 58 micro front and 205 classic rear f28h/r32h, Stan's alpha 400 rims, Dt Swiss revolution spokes and Dt brass nipples. I fitted the hubs with ceramic bearings which saved a few more grams and the rims averaged 450 grams each. I chose brass nipples to aid maintenance and increase long term longevity. I know I could have gone for stiffer spokes but the revolutions came in at a good price and I have never snapped one. Complete wheelset came in at 1448 grams which I consider good for such a high spoke count and brass nips. After an initial bedding in period which I have found to be the case with all the Stan's rims I have built with, the wheels have been fine and have only required minor attention due to some monster pot holes. I run them with bontrager 260 grams tubeless tyres and lightweight alloy valves, they hold air well and I am yet to flat on them.

Manc33

It does seem like for a 180lb/80KG rider, 1400g-1500g would be far safer than 1300g-1400g and anything under 1300g, too unsafe.

One good thing I can say about those Triban 3 wheels, although heavy (and I have Marathon Plusses on @ 590g per tyre), they are bomb proof. I never trued them at all for more than 1000 miles and tonight I looked and they only needed very slight truing, like 1/16th of a turn on odd spokes here and there. Although heavy the quality is good on them for a bike that price.

I know someone is about to say "You're going to get a 1400g wheelset and put Marathon Plus on them?"

Yep. I know, I know. :oops: In a twisted way, I need light rims because I have those tyres on, because I ain't fixing punc****s, it ain't happening.

daniel_b

pastey_boy wrote:

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=834&osCsid=db74334n49v3lts0568ca74111

Wow, that seems brutally good vfm.

Manc33

Daniel B wrote:

pastey_boy wrote:

http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=834&osCsid=db74334n49v3lts0568ca74111

Wow, that seems brutally good vfm.

Sent them a short email asking what is the max weight for a rider on these wheels.

I'm gonna shut up about them now in case people reading this thread all start buying them and make them become out of stock. :twisted:

One last thing though, a thread elsewhere from 2004 said Alex rims are the biggest rim maker in the world and sell to other companies that just put their name on them. Some wheels were called "280" (this was 2004 don't forget) and they had tons of complaints, but they might be the fabled "sub 300g aluminium rims" people have said no longer exist, they must have attempted it, got endless breakages of spokes and stopped making them so light.

I also read those Alexrims R380 are 450g. If the wheelset is 1360g and the rims are 450g that would be bloody great.

Says 435g here:
http://velospec.com/components/alexrims/r380

According to this, the R400 are actually 25g lighter than the R380.
http://velospec.com/components/alexrims/r400

They do it to keep us on our toes.

cattytown

Customs/duty - will be payable on components. Taking the dollar price is a fair rule of thumb.

The way it works is that they take the price if the item - INCLUDING postage - and add the duty. Duty will typically be around 4%. Then they add on VAT - 20% then the carrier will take the opportunity to sting you for a charge to take money off you. Plan on a further tenner and you wont be too far out.

So - take something that costs $180, plus $20 postage that's $200. XE.com That's just over £120 - I'll round it down, just remember that the actual will be probably two or three quid more. Add duty at 4% - £4.80, then VAT at 20% of £124.80 is another £24.96 that puts us to £149.76. Then you need to add on any handling charges.

HMRC are getting more accurate on their ability to charge taxes. It used to be that use a "standard" shipping - eg USPS rather than a courier, and it be something small in a packet and it could easily have been overlooked even if quite high value, where something bulky, shipped by DHL would be charged even if low value.

Contrary to what some believe, declaring something a gift does not avoid duty - it just lifts the threshold. Also under recording the value can be risky as well as illegal. Label something worth $1000 as worth $10, and it goes missing - guess how much you'll get off insurers...

The actual exchange rate will be whatever HMRC decide to use, and can change frequently.

Paul.

cycleclinic

435g per R3890rim and 220g for 44 Laser spokes and alloy nipple means 270g hubs. I doubt these are the all weather kind of hubs but not knowing superstars hub range well that is just a gut instinct and not fact.

The rim though is not heavy enough to be a deep V. 30mm V is really needed for stable 20F/24R wheels with Laser spokes out back. Also hubs that light will use alloy axles. Even the large alloy axles on Novatec F482 light weight hubs can flex if a heavy rider or a very powerful one uses them. All things to bear in mind.

desweller

So - with aluminium nipples you get galvanic corrosion with the spoke, which is why the thread gets stripped next time you try to true them up. With brass nipples it's usually just debris in the threads that cause them to seize; you can do a lot by oiling them with something like WD40 before you adjust the tension.

Can you borrow a more conservative pair of wheels from a mate as a sighter for how aggressive you want to be with your component selection?

buckles

You people are insane.

Manc33

Yeah I don't like how those wheels are only 20/24 spokes either. ProWheelBuilder always recommends 32 front and back on wheels that light. Other slightly lower ones like 28 say "approved" and under that, its a no no.

At least thats what happens when I go through it all and choose the Kinlin XR-200 rims and Sapim Laser spokes.

Saying that though, its all based on the fact that I tell it my weight is 180lbs.

This is what I get for the rear wheel, Kinlin XR-200 and Sapim Race (6.5g) spokes...



They don't list Laser spokes. :!: Those are something like 4.75g each.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Also hubs that light will use alloy axles. Even the large alloy axles on Novatec F482 light weight hubs can flex if a heavy rider or a very powerful one uses them. All things to bear in mind.

The vast majority of hubs on the market have alloy axles... they were introduced by Mavic in their 500 series to give more stiffness, as they have a larger diameter than steel axles, in much the same way alloy frames have wider tubes and are stiffer than steel frames even at lower weight... so I am not quite sure what you mean there.... :shock:

Strith

Sdeals sell kinlin rims in a bunch of different drillings for about £25. So why don't you pick a suitable drilling and get a decent builder to build them up for you with some novatecs, brass nipples and some decent spokes.
That's got to be the best compromise, plus no duty if you buy form Sdeals.

kajjal

Manc33 wrote:

Yeah I don't like how those wheels are only 20/24 spokes either. ProWheelBuilder always recommends 32 front and back on wheels that light. Other slightly lower ones like 28 say "approved" and under that, its a no no.

At least thats what happens when I go through it all and choose the Kinlin XR-200 rims and Sapim Laser spokes.

Saying that though, its all based on the fact that I tell it my weight is 180lbs.

This is what I get for the rear wheel, Kinlin XR-200 and Sapim Race (6.5g) spokes...



They don't list Laser spokes. :!: Those are something like 4.75g each.

It really depends how strong you are, how fast you go and how rough the roads are. I weight about 220lbs and my 24 spoke wheels are fine so far but I tend to go for distance rather than speed, rarely stand to pedal and the roads are very smooth here. If I was pounding the bike into the ground over shorter distances once they wore out I would go for a higher spoke count. My XC mountain bike gets subjected to a lot more sprinting , hard braking and stress off road but it is built for it.

Manc33

Shop quote:

"Hello any lightweight 20/24 spoke road wheel we recommend a max of 100kg, otherwise they end up a bit flexy due to low spoke count. We have 28 spoke wheels for heavier riders."

I always assumed (assumed, not "knew") if you were over 75KG you need either 28/32 or at least a 24/28?

The other thing to note is some use these wheels for Cyclo-cross, riding over all sorts, I never would use them for that. I think a lot of the time shops are just trying to cover themselves, when people go out thrashing their bikes, they have to be safe. The first thing anyone does is goes back to the shop and says "You said it was safe". :roll:

Its not my weight I am even thinking about as much as hitting a pothole and getting an untrue wheel 20 miles from home and with 20 spokes not being able to true it back again. You can't ride on a rim with 19 spokes thats meant to have 20, but you can if you have 32 and one snaps.

On a 700c with 20 spokes you have 1 spoke every 10cm (approx), so you'd have a 20cm gap if one broke. Will probably end up with 24/28.

One other thing worrying me is I have a 11-32T cassette and in that 32T sprocket it will be putting strain on the spokes. When I get this 28T inner chainring, even more strain.

If a wheelset is made up and its not put on a bike, rode around then trued up again don't bike wheels just go all funny as soon as you use them and they need a higher tension all around again? As soon as you pedal you're tightening/twisting it. I guess building the wheel a twist is a twist, it can't twist any more?

I know literally nothing about building wheels. :oops: I know how to build one, I just never have in reality.