Chris Froome cured

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  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Stillnox wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Stillnox wrote:
    So, how come Froome/Walsh/Brailsford have stated on numerous occasions the Bilharzia feeds on the red blood cells, effectively doing the reverse of what EPO does?

    So do the inaccuracies in Walsh's writing only apply when they can be used as evidence of a cover up?
    Perhaps you misread my post but I specifically stated Froome/Walsh/Brailsford.

    Cover up? I am talking about inconsistencies. The bilharzia feeding on red blood cells and effectively doing the reverse of what epo does is a wrong assesment of the disease. The disease that hampered a young athlete to get results, become the best stage racer of his era.

    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/8859/ ... eason.aspx

    From being able to climb in the front group quite often this season (2011) to effectively a GT winner is explained by the clearing of the parasite which according Sky/Froome and later Walsh 'de - epoed' the guy.

    Why that lie?


    As Rich pointed out, one page ago, the specific details of the disease are largely irrelevant.

    Ignoring the huge impact on training, recovery and susceptibility to minor infections that bilharzia
    would have on an athlete's condition, might well lead one to the conclusion you draw, above.

    However, this detail is most relevant.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Oh god, spanking the monkey is just the perfect phrase...Chapeau, felkuota..
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Nic, are you related to Christopher Hitchens by any chance? Or studied under him? I have never seen anyone else (other than Hitch) Demolish someone in an argument so utterly and comprehensively before!

    The biggest of hat tips to you sir, that was outstanding! It's made my inner sciencey skeptic do somersaults!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Stillnox wrote:
    Why that lie?

    The only 'lie' here is constantly claiming that one individual event is responsible for Froome achieving his potential. That an approach to cycling that achieved startling results on the track, should work with some road cyclists is dismissed with the astoundingly puerile "Sky invented training & insult every pro cyclist claiming they never train".

    Another lie is repeating the line that 87th all-time up Alpe d'Huez "beats known doper's times".

    Why these lies?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited December 2013
    Whilst we're on the subject of dishonesty...how about those power estimates some like to try to project as 'evidence' of doping...

    An interesting paper has just come out:

    http://journals.humankinetics.com/AcuCu ... 0press.pdf
  • feltkuota
    feltkuota Posts: 333
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Oh god, spanking the monkey is just the perfect phrase...Chapeau, felkuota..

    Too kind....can't say it was my own work though..
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    So terrible chat aside.


    Froome is absolutely the man to beat at the moment. Agreed?
    _
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    So terrible chat aside.


    Froome is absolutely the man to beat at the moment. Agreed?


    Yes. Looking forward to how everyone approaches trying to beat him next year. Especially Mr Nibbles.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    So terrible chat aside.


    Froome is absolutely the man to beat at the moment. Agreed?
    Using the old star system (and ignoring actual race plans):

    *****Froome
    ****Nibali, Quintana
    ***Rodriguez, Contador, Porte, Valverde
    **Pinot, Mollema, Uran, Van Garderen, Evans

    Probably missed some (deliberately missed Horner as he doesn't have a team yet)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Stillnox
    Stillnox Posts: 38
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    As Rich pointed out, one page ago, the specific details of the disease are largely irrelevant.

    Ignoring the huge impact on training, recovery and susceptibility to minor infections that bilharzia
    would have on an athlete's condition, might well lead one to the conclusion you draw, above.
    I disagree, the explanation on how Froome was able to perform at Vuelta 2011 level was because he overcame that red blood cell eating parasite.

    In the article I posted Froome was quite happy to be in the lead group on several days that year. From that to becoming the stage racer to beat in the space of a few months, maybe even a few weeks when you take a close look at his 2011 season, is a huge improvement.

    He got his last treatment in 2011 after the Tour de Suisse, other sources speak of after the Tour of California in may:
    http://www.bicycling.com/news/2012-tour ... sing-rider
    In the 2011 Tour of California, he was amazing one day and really bad the next. So we tested for Bilharzia again and sure enough he had it. And once he got treatment, he started progressing again." The Bilharzia has returned on occasion, but Julich and Froome can now immediately identify the symptoms.

    and
    http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/09/ ... ium_192373
    N: Have you been successfully treated for it?

    CF: I had to re-do the treatment after the Tour de Suisse this year. Since then, I have been a lot more consistent and good in my training.

    June 2011, two months later he is the best stage racer of the peloton, what kinda training is that? Reverse periodisation? Twenty - fourties? Altitude training?

    Look, I am not saying the guy didnt have bilharzia, I find the explanation on the subject sub - standard for a team like Sky tends to be: attention to detail and I found it incredibly strange how the 'reverse epo' came in to the story, it is simply not true.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    So a guy cycling manager with an MBA perhaps not being an expert in Sub Saharan African Diseases isnt a possibility for you then...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Stillnox
    Stillnox Posts: 38
    ddraver wrote:
    So a guy cycling manager with an MBA perhaps not being an expert in Sub Saharan African Diseases isnt a possibility for you then...
    I agree, totally, and, in the past Sky have dealed with this appropriately, they hired outside expertise:
    http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-c ... ent-clean/
    However, the harrowing experience at the 2010 Vuelta a Espana led to a rethink of that medical policy.

    “When someone dies on your team and you feel you’re putting riders at risk… for all we knew the riders could have had the same thing.

    “We sat down and realised that as a group of people we did not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat, with extreme fatigue. We were making calls like ‘no, on you go mate’.”
    When you dont have the experise on board you hire someone, they did but that doctor who was on Linda McCartney back in 2000/2001 left the team, you dont make assessments on diseases you know nothing about, I sure as hell dont.

    And, when one writes a book one might do some research on the matter, did the lad have acute bilharzia? Chronic? Does is affect the red or the white bloodcells? Both? According to team doctor Freeman:
    "I was confused because Chris hadn't performed with this consistency for the team and I wondered how he'd done it. Before I could be satisfied, I spent two weeks re-examining all of his blood samples from his two seasons in our team and looked at all the information in his biological passport.

    "What I wanted was to compare blood results from the Vuelta with the blood tests he'd done previously to see if there were changes. There weren't. His blood values remained the same and whatever the reasons for him riding consistently in that Vuelta, in my opinion it wasn't down to him doing things he shouldn't have done." Freeman's admission of initial concern was reassuring.
    Then my question is: how does that relate to the 'reverse what epo does' we were told?
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Stillnox wrote:
    June 2011, two months later he is the best stage racer of the peloton, what kinda training is that? Reverse periodisation? Twenty - fourties? Altitude training?

    Second in the 3rd GT of the year to Cobo, ahead of a winged Wiggins is what amounts to the best of the peloton? Hogwash.

    Edit And don't forget that with another season of 'juice in his veins' he stormed to an epochal 87th all-time up The Alpe.

    Do your lies never stop?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Stillnox
    Stillnox Posts: 38
    Macaloon wrote:
    Stillnox wrote:
    June 2011, two months later he is the best stage racer of the peloton, what kinda training is that? Reverse periodisation? Twenty - fourties? Altitude training?

    Second in the 3rd GT of the year to Cobo, ahead of a winged Wiggins is what amounts to the best of the peloton? Hogwash.

    Edit And don't forget that with another season on the juice under his belt he stormed to an epochal 87th all-time up The Alpe.

    Do your lies never stop?
    I am sensing you do not understand what I am saying, Fred Grappe, the man who studied Froome's SRM files and said they were consistent would agree with me.

    But, from ''being able to climb in the front group quite often this season'' to the best stage racer around with consistensy in SRM power measurements in a few months is lying according to you?

    Do not try to insult me. Please. That is totally uncalled for. I havent lied to you, Sky have lied. Dont point your anger at me.

    If you want to talk about climbing times I suggest you open a thread on it, it is interesting but quite difficult to understand when you have to take all the variables into account. I also do not see why you would bring this up on a topic named ''Chris Froome cured''.

    In 2011 Froome was cured from bilharzia - a short while - and became the strongest stage racer in the peloton. Overnight. That is the subject. Thank you.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Macaloon wrote:
    Stillnox wrote:
    June 2011, two months later he is the best stage racer of the peloton, what kinda training is that? Reverse periodisation? Twenty - fourties? Altitude training?

    Second in the 3rd GT of the year to Cobo, ahead of a winged Wiggins is what amounts to the best of the peloton? Hogwash.

    Edit And don't forget that with another season of 'juice in his veins' he stormed to an epochal 87th all-time up The Alpe.

    Do your lies never stop?


    I'm imagining 'Hogwash' in a booming Brian Blessed-stylie voice, Maca
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Stillnox wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Stillnox wrote:
    June 2011, two months later he is the best stage racer of the peloton, what kinda training is that? Reverse periodisation? Twenty - fourties? Altitude training?

    Second in the 3rd GT of the year to Cobo, ahead of a winged Wiggins is what amounts to the best of the peloton? Hogwash.

    Edit And don't forget that with another season on the juice under his belt he stormed to an epochal 87th all-time up The Alpe.

    Do your lies never stop?

    I am sensing you do not understand what I am saying

    I am saying that calling second place in the third priority GT of the year (won by 42 year-old recently) ahead of the mighty Mollema and Menchov, does not come close to the standard of best in peloton. Yet you repeat this lie. Why?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    So Froome apparently became the best stage racer in the world overnight in 2011, but didn't actually win a stage race for another year and a half. Yep, that makes sense :roll:
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Richmond Racer wrote:

    I'm imagining 'Hogwash' in a booming Brian Blessed-stylie voice, Maca

    More Mother Tucker.
    The-Thick-of-It---Malcolm-010.jpg
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    RichN95 wrote:
    So Froome apparently became the best stage racer in the world overnight in 2011, but didn't actually win a stage race for another year and a half. Yep, that makes sense :roll:

    From nowhere (and I mean nowhere, not close, not competitive, nowhere) to top 4 in all 4 GT's he has ridden (including 2 he would have won if he hadn't been playing 2nd fiddle and a resounding win against proven GT specialists) is an awfully big leap ... Too big for a few pillows and a comfy bus ...

    Don't think he is doping but there is some team practice that makes all these SKY/Team GB riders world trouncers ... and in the world of pro-cycling there needs to be transparency on what that is so the public can show faith and the experts can demonstrate how the sum of these 'marginal gains' add up to the consistent level of performance ... At the end of the day there should be no secrets, it's one man turning the pedals harder/faster than the others ...

    Just an example, give us all Froome's data for his TdF win and also a daily diary of all his meals, massage etc. highlighting the small changes where SKY's 'professionalism' make all the difference ... OK, the internet would have a hernia but experts would also be able to quantify these and demonstrate that Froome/SKY are beyond doubt.

    'There are no secrets' said a man proven to have many ... Let Brailsford prove it!
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    ^ Decent post. They could even invite a respected journalist, one with a track record of exposing wrong-doing at considerable risk to his career, to live with them for a season and write all down.

    And while he's at it, could the same guy get Adrian Newby's 2014 car design, and Man City's coaching dossiers... Not a reasonable request.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    Crankbrother wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    So Froome apparently became the best stage racer in the world overnight in 2011, but didn't actually win a stage race for another year and a half. Yep, that makes sense :roll:

    From nowhere (and I mean nowhere, not close, not competitive, nowhere) to top 4 in all 4 GT's he has ridden (including 2 he would have won if he hadn't been playing 2nd fiddle and a resounding win against proven GT specialists) is an awfully big leap ... Too big for a few pillows and a comfy bus ...

    Don't think he is doping but there is some team practice that makes all these SKY/Team GB riders world trouncers ... and in the world of pro-cycling there needs to be transparency on what that is so the public can show faith and the experts can demonstrate how the sum of these 'marginal gains' add up to the consistent level of performance ... At the end of the day there should be no secrets, it's one man turning the pedals harder/faster than the others ...

    Just an example, give us all Froome's data for his TdF win and also a daily diary of all his meals, massage etc. highlighting the small changes where SKY's 'professionalism' make all the difference ... OK, the internet would have a hernia but experts would also be able to quantify these and demonstrate that Froome/SKY are beyond doubt.

    'There are no secrets' said a man proven to have many ... Let Brailsford prove it!


    Or what? You/we won't watch.

    It really is an extraordinary situation that fans of a sport demand the athletes training information and a diary of what he eats so they can judge if they are cheating or not.

    And that anyone not demanding this information is a naïve gullible fanboy.

    Further more there is absolutely nothing Sky could publish which would convince the mob that they are clean. Their mistake was entering into discussions with head-the-balls and thereby giving them some sort of legitimacy.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    Macaloon wrote:
    ^ Decent post. They could even invite a respected journalist, one with a track record of exposing wrong-doing at considerable risk to his career, to live with them for a season and write all down.

    And while he's at it, could the same guy get Adrian Newby's 2014 car design, and Man City's coaching dossiers... Not a reasonable request.

    I'd like the recipe for Coca Cola, Col Sanders 11 herbs and spices and the gloop they put on Big Macs too.

    Ta much
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    Macaloon wrote:
    ^ Decent post. They could even invite a respected journalist, one with a track record of exposing wrong-doing at considerable risk to his career, to live with them for a season and write all down.

    And while he's at it, could the same guy get Adrian Newby's 2014 car design, and Man City's coaching dossiers... Not a reasonable request.

    Trouble with someone like Walsh is he is only given the access the team want him to have and only writes about what he thinks will ultimately make him money ... If he writes a puff piece about SKY and sells a few books everyone in that room is happy, and the media/money gravy train gets another journey ...

    The info/data needs to come direct from SKY to show the transparency they promised ... and in terms of giving away 'secrets' of their methodology etc. there should be nothing that makes the difference if other teams copy them ... Or is Froome not that good after all?
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    ^ Decent post. They could even invite a respected journalist, one with a track record of exposing wrong-doing at considerable risk to his career, to live with them for a season and write all down.

    And while he's at it, could the same guy get Adrian Newby's 2014 car design, and Man City's coaching dossiers... Not a reasonable request.

    I'd like the recipe for Coca Cola, Col Sanders 11 herbs and spices and the gloop they put on Big Macs too.

    Ta much
    What are you people not getting, it is a simple sport where one man is a bit quicker than some other folk, some of the time ... There 'should' be nothing to hide in the methodology of how that is achieved, other than team/rider tactics ...
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    ^ Decent post. They could even invite a respected journalist, one with a track record of exposing wrong-doing at considerable risk to his career, to live with them for a season and write all down.

    And while he's at it, could the same guy get Adrian Newby's 2014 car design, and Man City's coaching dossiers... Not a reasonable request.

    Trouble with someone like Walsh is he is only given the access the team want him to have and only writes about what he thinks will ultimately make him money ... If he writes a puff piece about SKY and sells a few books everyone in that room is happy, and the media/money gravy train gets another journey ...

    The info/data needs to come direct from SKY to show the transparency they promised ... and in terms of giving away 'secrets' of their methodology etc. there should be nothing that makes the difference if other teams copy them ... Or is Froome not that good after all?

    This is a ridiculous request. Should every NFL team share their playbooks? No-one doubts it is Brailsford's approach that made the track team successful, do they?
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    ^ Tactics should be the only secret ... Everything else could be made available, there should be nothing to hide if they have faith they have the best rider(s) ...
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    CB - do you honestly think he sells more books saying Sky are clean than he would if he had evidence Sky were doping?

    Cos i dont...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Drops in form surely indicate that doping happens/doesn't.

    Froome rides the tour and finishes second to Wiggins, he then rides the Veulta and finishes 4th. He can't get near the winners in that. So if he was doping, surely he'd be taking stuff to help him recover as well as stuff to keep him fresh?

    So with that in mind, that means Sky must be terrible at doping if they can't even win on it?


    Do you question every rider this much, I think not? When Nibali was consistently destroying riders every day, and the day someone kept up with him that person got banned for doping, where were you asking for his meal diary etc?

    Why stop with meals, id like a stool and urine diary each day to make sure we know exact weight etc.
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    ddraver wrote:
    CB - do you honestly think he sells more books saying Sky are clean than he would if he had evidence Sky were doping?

    Cos i dont...

    Who said anything about doping? If he did find evidence to arouse suspicion then his modus operndi no doubt would change ...

    As it stands, he wouldn't get invited back if he delved into team methodology that was 'classified' or spoke about how restricted his access actually was ... So a puff piece suits all concerned ... especially as it's aimed at ITV4 viewers ...
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,548
    Crankbrother wrote:
    ^ Tactics should be the only secret ... Everything else could be made available, there should be nothing to hide if they have faith they have the best rider(s) ...

    What on earth are you blathering about? If they're getting a competitive advantage from e.g. training techniques that the other teams don't know about then why the hell would they give that up? Who in their right mind would demand they did?

    That's just absurd.
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