Inside Team Sky - David Walsh *Spoilers*

Essex Rouleur

Richmond Racer wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Surely you can't expect people to consider facts that don't fit in with their own narrative? :roll:

I think you have this back to front...

I considered the facts and came to the conclusion that on balance, Froome is more likely doping than not. I can see the other side of the argument, but as Father In Law says about investments, if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.

To me, Froome's progression, even allowing for his unusual background and illness, is just too good to be true. The performance jump in his mid 20s is just too large to swallow without giving me indigestion.

I could be wrong. Only Froome and his nearest and dearest know for sure.

At the age of 22, he beat Rui Costa and Bauke Mollema on MTF stages. We aint talking about a low grade talent here, W&G. He beat some of the most talented U23s of that year.

This refrain that equates to 'he was rubbish all of his career until the Vuelta', is just plain inaccurate.

And I have to challenge that last statement. If he's doping he's doing it with the full complicity of Sky. So if you think Froome's doping, then you have to believe that Sky are running a team doping programme.

It actually goes further than that RR. It's easy to think that Brailsford is the very top, but he isn't, even he has to report to the 'Sky board' and if Sky are running a doping programme then either the bods above Brailsford at Sky know about it or they don't. I personally find it very hard to believe that right at the very top (Murdoch) would rubber stamp the funds for a cycling team with his most prized asset, the Sky branding, stamped all over it. It's too big a risk to Skys identity if after all these years of promoting Sky Sports they are then found to be running a team that actively dopes.
I for one dont believe that Froome or the team Sky management are involved in doping of any kind. You know at some point, there has to be a rider thats simply the best and naturally good.

Richmond Racer

Dont disagree that it would mean higher - and wider, Essex Rouleur. Right across to the GB track programme. To the Chris Hoys and the Vicky Ps, the Laura Trotts and the Ed Clancys, the Craig Macleans and the Jason Queally's. And we shouldnt stop there - who else went through the BC and Academy set-up? Cav. Cav did.

Every single rider - what, since Brailsford took over from Keen, or shall we go right back to Keen? This is the set up that's had a no-needles policy since, when, '96? There isnt a cycling team with a stronger AD policy than GB - or a team that's worked more closely with the NADO.

Of course, this would mean nothing to those crying out 'Dopers'

But people should factor this into their thinking. Because its a huge huge factor.

Richmond Racer

Oh and please dont start Nutellagate.

Some of us have only just got over Nespressogate

wallace_and_gromit

RichN95 wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

No-one was predicting great things for Froome based on his early pro results, though.

Back in 2008 the boss of Barloworld, Claudio Corti, predicted that he would come in the top 5 of the Tour (in the future, not 2008).

Thanks. Should have said "Very few people were predicting..."

I wonder what the conversion rate of "Predicted top 5 at Tour" to "Actual top 5 at the Tour" is?

frenchfighter

Here is another anecdote. It is not about Sky or Froome though. Its about Contador and Ricco. It shows what a great guy he is. A guy you can get behind emotionally and be rewarded.

I think one of the more surreal and telling moments of the Giro was the moment when Toni Colom came to hand Contador a banana while the favorites group (sans Sella and Simoni) was arguing their way up the last climb in stage 20. Contador, who eats bananas during most every stage, was far too busy telling Ricco where to get off to notice the awaiting banana hand-off from the flailing Colom. Finally he very calmly takes the banana, but he keeps right on arguing with Ricco. Meanwhile they are climbing fast enough that any mortal could not even breathe, let alone carry on a lengthy argument. Then Contador starts waving the banana right in Ricco's face, which was a bit like waving a red cape at a bull. Ricco surely looked well and truly pissed off.

Richmond Racer

A guy you can get behind...and be emotionally gutted when he tests positive

blazing_saddles

Richmond Racer wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Surely you can't expect people to consider facts that don't fit in with their own narrative? :roll:

I think you have this back to front...

I considered the facts and came to the conclusion that on balance, Froome is more likely doping than not. I can see the other side of the argument, but as Father In Law says about investments, if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.

To me, Froome's progression, even allowing for his unusual background and illness, is just too good to be true. The performance jump in his mid 20s is just too large to swallow without giving me indigestion.

I could be wrong. Only Froome and his nearest and dearest know for sure.

At the age of 22, he beat Rui Costa and Bauke Mollema on MTF stages. We aint talking about a low grade talent here, W&G. He beat some of the most talented U23s of that year.

This refrain that equates to 'he was rubbish all of his career until the Vuelta', is just plain inaccurate.

And I have to challenge that last statement. If he's doping he's doing it with the full complicity of Sky. So if you think Froome's doping, then you have to believe that Sky are running a team doping programme.

RR: I now think I understand where W+G is common from.
W+G is certainly no Sky basher, having done battle with the Asylum inmates.
Actually, if I'm right you both share a common preference towards the same rider.
It's maybe this preference that perhaps influences his more negative view of Froome.
Divisions within Team Sky shared by their supporters.
A pity really.

frenchfighter

Richmond Racer wrote:

A guy you can get behind...and be emotionally gutted when he tests positive

That would be a blow but you have to take a risk, playing it safe is not very rewarding. I`ve discussed it before but if he did test positive (properly) then I would be very surprised and respect him less but still will not be sad for the enjoyment and happiness he provided.

ddraver

Sorry - thats an anecdote about Contador being a total arsehole no?

blazing_saddles

There is much in this game that I'm certain about, but the fact that the current crop of young GB track riders that came through the academy are clean, is one.

Paulie W

frenchfighter wrote:

Here is another anecdote. It is not about Sky or Froome though. Its about Contador and Ricco. It shows what a great guy he is. A guy you can get behind emotionally and be rewarded.

I think one of the more surreal and telling moments of the Giro was the moment when Toni Colom came to hand Contador a banana while the favorites group (sans Sella and Simoni) was arguing their way up the last climb in stage 20. Contador, who eats bananas during most every stage, was far too busy telling Ricco where to get off to notice the awaiting banana hand-off from the flailing Colom. Finally he very calmly takes the banana, but he keeps right on arguing with Ricco. Meanwhile they are climbing fast enough that any mortal could not even breathe, let alone carry on a lengthy argument. Then Contador starts waving the banana right in Ricco's face, which was a bit like waving a red cape at a bull. Ricco surely looked well and truly pissed off.

You're going to have to help me out here. This seems to present Contador pretty negatively to me.

Richmond Racer

delete post

Richmond Racer

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RR: I now think I understand where W+G is common from.
W+G is certainly no Sky basher, having done battle with the Asylum inmates.
Actually, if I'm right you both share a common preference towards the same rider.
It's maybe this preference that perhaps influences his more negative view of Froome.
Divisions within Team Sky shared by their supporters.
A pity really.

Ah, right. Gotcha.

Essex Rouleur

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dont disagree that it would mean higher - and wider, Essex Rouleur. Right across to the GB track programme. To the Chris Hoys and the Vicky Ps, the Laura Trotts and the Ed Clancys, the Craig Macleans and the Jason Queally's. And we shouldnt stop there - who else went through the BC and Academy set-up? Cav. Cav did.

Every single rider - what, since Brailsford took over from Keen, or shall we go right back to Keen? This is the set up that's had a no-needles policy since, when, '96? There isnt a cycling team with a stronger AD policy than GB - or a team that's worked more closely with the NADO.

Of course, this would mean nothing to those crying out 'Dopers'

But people should factor this into their thinking. Because its a huge huge factor.

Exactly my point, it's very easy to think 'Team Sky', see the bus, see Brailsford, see the riders and then shout 'dopers' at the first sign of winning, but 'Team Sky' go beyond all that. If anything, it's very easy to assume that Team Sky are the be all and end all to that operation, but in actual fact they are relatively new to the whole operation thats been put into place over the past decade.

I don't see what Sky and Brailsford can do to prove themselves anymore than what they have done, and ironically, if you ask the accusers the same question they rarely come up with a plausible solution themselves. In the end, all Sky can do is just carry on and (to quote the book) 'hope the sheer weight of the new experiences of racing being forged now crush the bad history of the past..' (something like that )

deejay

Blazing Saddles wrote:

There is much in this game that I'm certain about, but the fact that the current crop of young GB track riders that came through the academy are clean, is one.

And he should know. :!:

LutherB

Richmond Racer wrote:

Dont disagree that it would mean higher - and wider, Essex Rouleur. Right across to the GB track programme. To the Chris Hoys and the Vicky Ps, the Laura Trotts and the Ed Clancys, the Craig Macleans and the Jason Queally's. And we shouldnt stop there - who else went through the BC and Academy set-up? Cav. Cav did.

Every single rider - what, since Brailsford took over from Keen, or shall we go right back to Keen? This is the set up that's had a no-needles policy since, when, '96? There isnt a cycling team with a stronger AD policy than GB - or a team that's worked more closely with the NADO.

Of course, this would mean nothing to those crying out 'Dopers'

But people should factor this into their thinking. Because its a huge huge factor.

I'm kinda reminded of the Woody Allen film where he's dwelling too much on the JFK assassination to avoid sleeping with his girlfriend: '...so you're saying the Warren Commission are in on it....and the janitor too?'

I don't know who's doing the dope, but everyone talking about it all the time just makes me wish i had some

tailwindhome

frenchfighter wrote:

Here is another anecdote. It is not about Sky or Froome though. Its about Contador and Ricco. It shows what a great guy he is. A guy you can get behind emotionally and be rewarded.

I think one of the more surreal and telling moments of the Giro was the moment when Toni Colom came to hand Contador a banana while the favorites group (sans Sella and Simoni) was arguing their way up the last climb in stage 20. Contador, who eats bananas during most every stage, was far too busy telling Ricco where to get off to notice the awaiting banana hand-off from the flailing Colom. Finally he very calmly takes the banana, but he keeps right on arguing with Ricco. Meanwhile they are climbing fast enough that any mortal could not even breathe, let alone carry on a lengthy argument. Then Contador starts waving the banana right in Ricco's face, which was a bit like waving a red cape at a bull. Ricco surely looked well and truly pissed off.

That's quite an anecdote. Craic must have been great last night.

wallace_and_gromit

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RR: I now think I understand where W+G is common from.
W+G is certainly no Sky basher, having done battle with the Asylum inmates.
Actually, if I'm right you both share a common preference towards the same rider.
It's maybe this preference that perhaps influences his more negative view of Froome.
Divisions within Team Sky shared by their supporters.
A pity really.

I actually have my doubts about Sir Brad tbh, but he was at least the very best in his chosen discipline for several years before focusing on the road. I think it's easier to believe that a world class talent in one type of endurance cycling can transfer to another than it is to believe that Froome was a GT winner lurking in autobus clothing for so long.

rayjay

Essex Rouleur

" I personally find it very hard to believe that right at the very top (Murdoch) would rubber stamp the funds for a cycling team with his most prized asset, the Sky branding, stamped all over it. It's too big a risk"

Does the words phone tapping come to mind.
Murdoch lost is way and his ethics a long time ago.

Richmond Racer

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RR: I now think I understand where W+G is common from.
W+G is certainly no Sky basher, having done battle with the Asylum inmates.
Actually, if I'm right you both share a common preference towards the same rider.
It's maybe this preference that perhaps influences his more negative view of Froome.
Divisions within Team Sky shared by their supporters.
A pity really.

I actually have my doubts about Sir Brad tbh, but he was at least the very best in his chosen discipline for several years before focusing on the road. I think it's easier to believe that a world class talent in one type of endurance cycling can transfer to another than it is to believe that Froome was a GT winner lurking in autobus clothing for so long.

Fair do's, W&G. Cant convince everyone. Time will tell, eh

whiteboytrash

Appears Nutella is well used at Team Sky.

David is a fool.

RichN95.

whiteboytrash wrote:

Appears Nutella is well used at Team Sky.

David is a fool.

Ooh. Another C+P from the Clinic. Do you happen to know when those photos were taken? They may have
used it early on - because other teams did - and then worked out it probably wasn't a good idea.

(I'm guessing from picture of Sky's first win in Australia that it was a loooong time ago. Probably early 2010)

Richmond Racer

Quite right Rich, Apr 2010. Stephen Farrand visits Sky's service course
http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/in ... ice-course


There's a fool around here but it ain't Walsh.

It really has become this desperate, hasn't it...

tailwindhome

Ulrich doped
Ulrich endorses Rapha
Rapha sponsor Sky

whiteboytrash

Richmond Racer wrote:

Quite right Rich, Apr 2010. Stephen Farrand visits Sky's service course
http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/in ... ice-course


There's a fool around here but it ain't Walsh.

It really has become this desperate, hasn't it...

What's actually wrong with Nutella? Does anyone know?

Besides Lopaz apparently according to Walsh brought his Nutella to the table at the Tour.

What happened at the races previous? Didn't anyone tell him they'd be offended? :shock:

What a dreadful story.

Seriously this is what makes Sky different?

I cannot stop laughing at Walsh. They certainly have him going on one. I'm sure the Sky guys are laughing at it behind his back.

As for this story being taken seriously. I mean, seriously? You actually believe it?

blazing_saddles

whiteboytrash wrote:

Appears Nutella is well used at Team Sky.

David is a fool.

RichN95 wrote:

Ooh. Another C+P from the Clinic. Do you happen to know when those photos were taken? They may have
used it early on - because other teams did - and then worked out it probably wasn't a good idea.

(I'm guessing from picture of Sky's first win in Australia that it was a loooong time ago. Probably early 2010)

Seems the meds have run out once more for three of the four biggest nut jobs over there.
Fair frothing at the mouth (once again) over on the bandwagon.
It now seems that Walsh is no longer Sky's version of Joseph Goebbels, but has been promoted to full, Adolph Hitler status.
I never realised that Nutella could be so influential in the ongoing battle for global domination.

whiteboytrash

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Appears Nutella is well used at Team Sky.

David is a fool.
Ooh. Another C+P from the Clinic. Do you happen to know when those photos were taken? They may have
used it early on - because other teams did - and then worked out it probably wasn't a good idea.

(I'm guessing from picture of Sky's first win in Australia that it was a loooong time ago. Probably early 2010)

Seems the meds have run out once more for three of the four biggest nut jobs over there.
Fair frothing at the mouth (once again) over on the bandwagon.
It now seems that Walsh is no longer Sky's version of Joseph Goebbels, but has been promoted to full, Adolph Hitler status.
I never realised that Nutella could be so influential in the ongoing battle for global domination.

You seem to spend a lot time over there in the Clinic, yes? What's the attraction, for you?

Do you feel it certifies that everyone else is mad? and you're right? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I don't think this is a "us and them" situation. Why make it as such?

The Nutella story is interesting. The CN articles rightfully brings up that a team ban on Nutella is nothing new. Argos-Shimano have one at races.

Walsh states this is the difference. But then says he doesn't know what other teams do.

Its hard to take him seriously at times. On one hand he's trying to tell us that these minor points add up into one big reason why Sky are so strong compared to others. Then he says he has no idea what other teams do.

But Bobby Julich told him! and Leinders has never said anything unethical went on at Sky.

The logic at times is baffling.

Doping aside for one moment Walsh does a horrible job and putting a case forward. So many mistakes.

But there are many fanatics on this forum. Ones who appear to be blindly looking past obvious inaccuracies in the text.

mike6

Bloody hell is this pish still going on. Either buy the book and read it, or dont, who the feck cares what you think about any rider let alone Sky??? Get a life.

whiteboytrash

mike6 wrote:

Bloody hell is this pish still going on. Either buy the book and read it, or dont, who the feck cares what you think about any rider let alone Sky??? Get a life.

I've read the book.

Why get abusive? Am I not allowed to post on here. Is there some rule I'm violating?

nic_77

Nutella has nothing to do with it. The main reason for Sky's success is, to quote Walsh, that they "wrap the rice cakes in special paper, not aluminium foil"

Of course that's not the sole reason, but every little helps. Some people seem to be unable to comprehend that a large collection of minor efficiency gains add up to a significant cumulative advantage. It's true, it works. You can do it in your everyday life.

Now, what's so 'special' about that "special paper" I hear you cry....