Running

mpatts

lyn1 wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

phil s wrote:

Maybe everyone discussing the Brownlees can get a room and take the hypotheticals to another topic?

All my fault. I didn't realise my observation would get so many people in an indignant tizz.

The OP and I both have taken up running about three miles a week. I've managed to sustain an injury just doing that amount, and haven't had much exercise for over a week. Someone was mentioning barefoot/minimalist trainers earlier and I thought they sounded interesting. Anyone else had experience with these for trail running?

No need to apologise, as okgo says, you raised some interesting debating points.
As to the barefoot issue, this may help
http://www.barefootathlete.co.uk/blog/k ... champions/

I'm a minimalist shoe runner - it takes a while to build up, my advice is to go to your local sweatshop and have a gait analysis. You see a lot of people limping around in barefoot shoes.

mmacavity

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/10/ ... t-it_99433

mmacavity

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/03/bo ... lists.html

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/healthan ... ealth.html

mrfpb

Mmacavity, thanks for the links. I think I will keep up with the Parkruns, especially as my son is keen and my younger children will also come along sometimes - even if just for one lap. My work life is so sedentary, I need to build more forms of exercise in.

I'm hoping to get to a Sweatshop this week or to the running shop attached to Cycle Surgery when I'm in London for work next week. I also need to work on my stretches!

mpatts

mrfpb wrote:

Mmacavity, thanks for the links. I think I will keep up with the Parkruns, especially as my son is keen and my younger children will also come along sometimes - even if just for one lap. My work life is so sedentary, I need to build more forms of exercise in.

I'm hoping to get to a Sweatshop this week or to the running shop attached to Cycle Surgery when I'm in London for work next week. I also need to work on my stretches!

Parkruns started me off on running and cycling - I love them!

First one 27 mins....PB now 19 mins. In a year!

chaffordred

Can running help with your cycling?

With CV fitness and core strength, most definitely. At this time of year it's far easier to throw your shoes, run out the door and sustain a good high tempo HR than what it is cycling on the road.

It also depends on what type of running you do. Hill training uses similar muscles to cycling.

If you're new to running, you need to adapt the new muscle groups. You may have good CV fitness through cycling and you may feel like upping the pace on a run, but pounding a pavement at a good pace will only lead to injury (calf/ITB/Hamstring etc). Start with a jog and up the miles and pace week by week.

mmacavity

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/fitness/Page ... tness.aspx

A little bit of running now and again is OK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO6WwN5 ... e=youtu.be

kieranb

After years of cycling and doing awful in the parent's race at my children's primary school, I decided to try running again after about 15 years. Started slowly building up the distance and speed about 2-3 years ago, got knee and foot pains etc so stopped for approx 6 months, started again a bit slower, same thing happened, stopped and then about a year ago started again, this time really slowly, jog a minute, walk a minute type thing. The problem was that with CV fitness from cycling I was too impatient in increasing my running distance. This time I have had no pains or issues, and managed to run a 1h26m half marathon in June this year, on running about 4 times a week, totalling about 40 to 50k per week. That's enough for me, it combines a longish run, hill session, sprint sessions and a short run. I don't think I will be doing 70miles per week , need time for the cycling and a bit of swimming as well.

wallace_and_gromit

kieranb wrote:

After years of cycling and doing awful in the parent's race at my children's primary school, I decided to try running again after about 15 years. Started slowly building up the distance and speed about 2-3 years ago, got knee and foot pains etc so stopped for approx 6 months, started again a bit slower, same thing happened, stopped and then about a year ago started again, this time really slowly, jog a minute, walk a minute type thing. The problem was that with CV fitness from cycling I was too impatient in increasing my running distance. This time I have had no pains or issues, and managed to run a 1h26m half marathon in June this year, on running about 4 times a week, totalling about 40 to 50k per week. That's enough for me, it combines a longish run, hill session, sprint sessions and a short run. I don't think I will be doing 70miles per week , need time for the cycling and a bit of swimming as well.

Whilst the second bit in bold is highly commendable, the key question is how did you get on in the parents' race?

top_bhoy

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

kieranb wrote:

After years of cycling and doing awful in the parent's race at my children's primary school, I decided to try running again after about 15 years. Started slowly building up the distance and speed about 2-3 years ago, got knee and foot pains etc so stopped for approx 6 months, started again a bit slower, same thing happened, stopped and then about a year ago started again, this time really slowly, jog a minute, walk a minute type thing. The problem was that with CV fitness from cycling I was too impatient in increasing my running distance. This time I have had no pains or issues, and managed to run a 1h26m half marathon in June this year, on running about 4 times a week, totalling about 40 to 50k per week. That's enough for me, it combines a longish run, hill session, sprint sessions and a short run. I don't think I will be doing 70miles per week , need time for the cycling and a bit of swimming as well.

Whilst the second bit in bold is highly commendable, the key question is how did you get on in the parents' race?

I was thinking that this is taking the parents race a bit too seriously.

wallace_and_gromit

Top_Bhoy wrote:

I was thinking that this is taking the parents race a bit too seriously.

One can never take the parents' race too seriously: Rule 70 applies - The purpose of competing is to win. End of.

Just remember to warm up before you get there and wear casual trousers over the lycra shorts!

kieranb

I felt like a duck out of water trying to sprint in the race, if only it had been a bike race! It was like one of those nightmares where no matter how hard you try you can't run any faster, luckily no monster was chasing me. Lets just say thank God for the older Dad, there were a few old overweight ones who were slower but my children banned me for ever more from taking part in any school related sporting activity.

My cycling fitness was totally useless when trying to run fast, I could have happily jogged around no bother for ages due to general CV fitness from the bike but the muscles weren't conditioned for running.

Just a final word of warning to any new Dads out there, many Dad's do take it seriously and if the school is big enough you can be sure there will be a few who do a lot of running, so be warned you may embarrass your children (but isn't that one of a father's duties?).

wallace_and_gromit

kieranb wrote:

Just a final word of warning to any new Dads out there, many Dad's do take it seriously and if the school is big enough you can be sure there will be a few who do a lot of running, so be warned you may embarrass your children (but isn't that one of a father's duties?).

My phyiso always makes sure he knows when the local schools are having their sports days, so he can ensure he has enough staff to deal with the profusion of hamstring pulls that inevitably result from competitive Dads!

On a similarly light-hearted note, one of my colleagues at work claims to have finished second to David Beckham in the Dads' race this year. Unverified claim, but would be good if true!

term1te

If you want inappropriately competitive school sports, you should try the annual parents and children Unihockey tournament at our local school. The poor eight year old in goal.

ai_1

BenderRodriguez wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

The OP and I both have taken up running about three miles a week. I've managed to sustain an injury just doing that amount, and haven't had much exercise for over a week. Someone was mentioning barefoot/minimalist trainers earlier and I thought they sounded interesting. Anyone else had experience with these for trail running?

Two points. Firstly, that running just three miles a week should lead to injury illustrates what 'one trick ponies' many cyclists are and in my view shows just why cyclists need to incorporate running and other activities into their training cycle. (Does anyone else remember the pathetic performances of the pro cyclists on the old 'Superstars' programme? :oops: )

Secondly, using minimalist footwear is likely to make things worse, as doing so would increase the shock loading on joints and muscles that can already hardly bear it. What works for a Kenyan raised from childhood to run bare footed will not help someone who can't run three miles a week without injury (or come to that an experienced runner who has always used cushioned shoes). There may well be a case for bare footed running or the use of minimalist footwear, but the adaptation required might well take a long time if injury is not to be a likely outcome, especially if you do a lot of running on the road.

To start with just get some comfortable shoes with ample cushioning (ignoring all the hype about motion control and so forth, instead work with not against your natural gait) and build up the mileage slowly.

In my opinion minimalist shoes have made a big difference for me in improving my running style and eliminating injuries. For me, using minimalist shoes and increasing my stride cadence has meant I run far more smoothly, efficiently and with lower "shock loading" than I did when I used conventional running shoes. Running well in uncushioned shoes, even on concrete/tarmac where I do the majority of mine, is far more comfortable and less rough on the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments than running badly with cushioning. However, I believe I used to overstride a bit and healstrike pretty severely, as many runners do, when I was running at moderate training pace. If your style is good then you may not get as much out of minimalist shopes although you might find you like them!
The main thing with barefoot/minimalist shoes which must NOT be ignored was mentioned by myself and Bender in earlier posts but is worth repeating. You must allow yourself time to adapt, and keep the distance short at first. Your calves will feel the difference but should adapt fairly quickly. The tendons, ligaments and bones of your feet and lower legs take longer and it may be several months before you can comfortably run middle to long distances. For me it was well worth it and I wasn't relying on the short runs early on to keep me fit since I had cycling for that.

mmacavity

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/01 ... technique/

BenderRodriguez

Ai_1 wrote:

The main thing with barefoot/minimalist shoes which must NOT be ignored was mentioned by myself and Bender in earlier posts but is worth repeating. You must allow yourself time to adapt, and keep the distance short at first... it may be several months before you can comfortably run middle to long distances.

I think that this is the key point. Whatever the merits of using minimalist running shoes for a regular runner, most cyclists will only be running for a couple of months of the year, usually in the winter. Consequently they will never be able to fully adapt to using them, especially given that they are essentially starting from zero each time they put the bike away and get out the running shoes. Hence my view that well cushioned shoes are advisable for cyclists who only run for a couple of months in the off-season.

mamba80

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

The main thing with barefoot/minimalist shoes which must NOT be ignored was mentioned by myself and Bender in earlier posts but is worth repeating. You must allow yourself time to adapt, and keep the distance short at first... it may be several months before you can comfortably run middle to long distances.

I think that this is the key point. Whatever the merits of using minimalist running shoes for a regular runner, most cyclists will only be running for a couple of months of the year, usually in the winter. Consequently they will never be able to fully adapt to using them, especially given that they are essentially starting from zero each time they put the bike away and get out the running shoes. Hence my view that well cushioned shoes are advisable for cyclists who only run for a couple of months in the off-season.

I am nursing a torn calf muscle by A: not following this advice and B: attempting to keep up with my daughter

mrfpb

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

The main thing with barefoot/minimalist shoes which must NOT be ignored was mentioned by myself and Bender in earlier posts but is worth repeating. You must allow yourself time to adapt, and keep the distance short at first... it may be several months before you can comfortably run middle to long distances.

I think that this is the key point. Whatever the merits of using minimalist running shoes for a regular runner, most cyclists will only be running for a couple of months of the year, usually in the winter. Consequently they will never be able to fully adapt to using them, especially given that they are essentially starting from zero each time they put the bike away and get out the running shoes. Hence my view that well cushioned shoes are advisable for cyclists who only run for a couple of months in the off-season.

Thank you both for the advice. I've now got some running shoes and hope to do a little running in the mornings before work - once my bursitis has cleared up. I may just go walking in them a few times a week before then. As my kids seem keen on the Parkruns, we should be making it an all year activity. We just need to see how long the enthusiam lasts. But as my son is getting up early on Saturdays in December for the Parkruns, I'm confident that their will always be a contingent attending.

Mikey23

Did a parents race once... Bloke next to me had spikes and blocks...

lochindaal

For me, using minimalist shoes and increasing my stride cadence has meant I run far more smoothly, efficiently and with lower "shock loading" than I did when I used conventional running shoes. Running well in uncushioned shoes, even on concrete/tarmac where I do the majority of mine, is far more comfortable and less rough on the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments than running badly with cushioning. However,I believe I used to overstride a bit and healstrike pretty severely

This cadence change is far more likely to be the improvement in your lack of injury and running rather than the type of shoes

ai_1

lochindaal wrote:

For me, using minimalist shoes and increasing my stride cadence has meant I run far more smoothly, efficiently and with lower "shock loading" than I did when I used conventional running shoes. Running well in uncushioned shoes, even on concrete/tarmac where I do the majority of mine, is far more comfortable and less rough on the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments than running badly with cushioning. However,I believe I used to overstride a bit and healstrike pretty severely

This cadence change is far more likely to be the improvement in your lack of injury and running rather than the type of shoes

In practice I think minimalist shoes are a great tool in getting rid of bad habits like overstriding and were crucial to my switch to a higher cadence running style. Highly cushioned shoes insulate you from significant errors in running style that feel wrong or uncomfortable in minimalist shoes and as such minimalist shoes tend to improve the mechanics of your stride - and strengthen your feet.
So, yes, the increased cadence will have helped but this came about largely because of using the minimalist shoes.