Running

skyblueamateur

Apologies, as I'm sure this must have been done before but trawled trhough the search for about 5 pages and gave up.

I went for my first run in years a few days ago and my thighs and calves are killing me. I'm aware that going running won't improve my cyling but I assume it won't be detrimental to it either?

Quite enjoyed it but I have suffered knee problems in the past so will limit it to one run a week alongside my normal miles on the bike.

Tom Dean

SkyBlueAmateur wrote:

I assume it won't be detrimental to it either?

SkyBlueAmateur wrote:

my thighs and calves are killing me

SkyBlueAmateur wrote:

I have suffered knee problems in the past

StillGoing

Cycling is low impact on the knees, running isn't.

Mikey23

Different muscle groups... I went from running to cycling and struggled at first. Have tried to run again but finding it difficult. The brownlee boys seem to manage ok though

Tom Dean

philthy3 wrote:

Cycling is low impact on the knees, running isn't.

It's low impact on the arms too, but an injured arm can hamper your ability to train on the bike.

mpatts

I was always told that they are essentially incompatible at the top level - but as non of us are at the top level, I find my running massively helps my cycling (and vice versa), due to the fact it's so good for CV.

Oh, and I also think that running is good pacing training.

ai_1

As far as I'm aware (no expert) running may not help with cycling performance at top level and may even harm your performance. However, in terms of general health and conditioning I think some running is a good idea. Cycling isolates a lot of your muscles including much of your core and doesn't really give you a great overall conditioning. It is fantastic for cardiovascular fitness but you'll probably find a different combination of muscles are used for running and it'll take a little while to strengthen the ones less used when cycling. If you've got core strength or posture issues running will likely show them up and fixing these will help you feel better in general and help avoid back problems etc. Trail running is better than road running for keeping your core engaged while running and avoids repetitive stress injuries - (although you're more likely to sprain an ankle!) Impact activity like running also helps maintain bone density, cycling can do the opposite - more of an issue for women but still...

I ran initially (not seriously) but had some knee problems and switched to cycling which I then found I really enjoyed. This year I started back at the running. My heart and lungs were in great shape from cycling and meant I was almost immediately better on foot than I had been before but it took time to build distance. Another big factor was that I decided to try minimalist running shoes (I use Merrell Barefoot Trail Gloves for both road and trail running). Like I said I had previously had knee problems and I'd had occasional hip & back pain too when running. I'm convinced the minimalist shoes helped massively with this and I've had no injuries so far since starting back. I run with a high cadence and land midfoot which comes naturally when you use minimalist shoes and feels far better than the way I usd to run. Perhaps counter-intuitively unpadded minimalist shoes reduce strain on your knees, hips and back for many people because they lead to a better, smoother and arguably more efficient running style where you absorb the loads with muscles, ligaments, tendons etc rather than pounding your joints and relying on a small piece of foam in the shoe to hide the problem.
If you decide to go the minimalist route be cautious starting off and give yourself lots of time to adapt to the minimalist shoes. It takes time for your feet and lower legs to adapt as your tendons and ligiments need to strengthen and are slower to do so than muscle. You'll probably find your calves and achilles get tight and sore even after very short runs at first. You need to start with short runs of just a few hundred meters and gradually increase the distance over a period of months. I'd say it took about 6 months for me to comfortably run 10km on the road, I was able to run longer distances off-road sooner than this. If you rush you'll risk injury but started gradually minimalist running seems to reduce likelyhood of injury. From my experience I'd highly recommend the minimalist approach......I seem to have rambled on a lot about the whole minimalist thing, sorry!

I started doing some duathlons and adventure races this season and intend to do triathlon next season. Maybe an Ironman in 2015 if all goes well. I'm really enjoying the combination of disciplines although road cycling is still my favourite.

If you're a competitive cyclist there may be both pros and cons to running. If you're an enthusiast I think it's mostly pros.

top_bhoy

I'm not a medic but if I've already had problem knees, running wouldn't be my first choice. I think walking would be a better preference for health benefits.

mrfpb

I started doing Parkruns this autumn having not run(in a sporting sense) since leaving school in 1986. My son was keen so I went to keep him company. This week I got a PB but then got incredible cramps in my thighs and calves about ten mins after the run.

Monday morning at my desk I put my hands on my knees and discovered that my left knee was considerably larger than my right knee and felt squishy (my legs were still sore, but it there was no pain in my knees). A quick google suggests to me it's bursitis (housemaids knee). So now I find I'm avoiding running, cycling and long walks until the swelling goes away. Quite a shame as I was starting to enjoy the runs, and it'll be miserable taking my son along and not running with him.

dw300

LOL @ Tom Dean's answer .. nailed it!

If you haven't run in a long time it's gona take your connective tissues a fair while to get used to the impact. The muscles themselves will get used to it fairly quickly. Also, how much heavier are you than the last time you went running?

You have to build a base in running just like in cycling to let your body adapt to a state where it can handle the more intense training. Combinations of running and walking is the usual way to get started. Walk with intervals of running, until you go from mostly walking, to mostly running.

mrfpb

dw300 wrote:

LOL @ Tom Dean's answer .. nailed it!

If you haven't run in a long time it's gona take your connective tissues a fair while to get used to the impact. The muscles themselves will get used to it fairly quickly. Also, how much heavier are you than the last time you went running?

You have to build a base in running just like in cycling to let your body adapt to a state where it can handle the more intense training. Combinations of running and walking is the usual way to get started. Walk with intervals of running, until you go from mostly walking, to mostly running.

Not sure if your reply was directed at me, but I'm two stone heavier than I was in 1986. I also thought I'd do a few runs to see if I liked it before buying running shoes. On reflection this may have been a mistake. Most of the runs (I've done seven) I have walked some of the way, but this week I really went for it (I beat my 15 yr old son, which surprised me). Once the swelling goes I think I'll get some decent shoes.

skyblueamateur

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm actually probably quite a lot lighter now then when I last went running. I'm about 67kg's now and I'm sure I was heavier then that 10 years or so ago.

I was only looking at going for a 3 mile run once a week. I've a young family so time is very tight so a 20 minute run seemed quite attractive.

cyco2

SkyBlueAmateur wrote:

I was only looking at going for a 3 mile run once a week. I've a young family so time is very tight so a 20 minute run seemed quite attractive.

It is no wonder you got muscle problems when you're knocking out less than 7 minute miles after so many years. Allowing for warm up and cool down you must have been pushing yourself a lot harder. Also include stretching in your programme.

ilovegrace

I have run competitively for 30 years, road ,fell, X/c races. and i can tell you this much , from a amateurs perspective ,the only way you will reach your peak is to do as much as you can at your sport be it running or cycling .
One will not help the other.
There are exemptions Rob Jebb , top fell runner and top cyclo crosser but not many.
To be your best at running you need to hit 70 miles per week , if you can do that with a job plus family and ride well ok but many can not.
I do not know the mileage in cycling to reach your potential but I recon the time element will be more than for running.
To become your best you have to gain as much as you can from the time you have available , running is ok when stuck in a hotel etc and you need some exercise or when you are injured and need to keep the weight don or if like me you are a recreational sportsman and want to mix things up.
Ask yourself , how much cycling does Mo Farah do and how much running does Bradly Wiggins do ?

mrfpb

ilovegrace wrote:

Ask yourself , how much cycling does Mo Farah do and how much running does Bradly Wiggins do ?

But the Brownlees excel at cycling, running and swimming. Alistair Brownlee ran his olympic gold 10,000 metres about 90 seconds slower than Mo Farah ran his. If Brownlee hadn't just done a long swim and bike ride he could well have beaten Farahs time.

Anyway I'm not sure that SkyBlueAmateur or I are looking to to excel at either. I'm looking to enjoy running and encourage my kids to enjoy it. My main exercise will still be cycling. Running will, I hope, complement it.

okgo

mrfpb wrote:

ilovegrace wrote:

Ask yourself , how much cycling does Mo Farah do and how much running does Bradly Wiggins do ?

But the Brownlees excel at cycling, running and swimming. Alistair Brownlee ran his olympic gold 10,000 metres about 90 seconds slower than Mo Farah ran his. If Brownlee hadn't just done a long swim and bike ride he could well have beaten Farahs time.

Anyway I'm not sure that SkyBlueAmateur or I are looking to to excel at either. I'm looking to enjoy running and encourage my kids to enjoy it. My main exercise will still be cycling. Running will, I hope, complement it.

Brownlee would not win most popular open TT's, he'd get beaten by people with full time jobs outside of sport.

Like wise not on this planet would he get near Mo Farah in the individual 10k, in fact Farah 10k PB is nearly 2 mins quicker than Brownlee, 2 mins at that level is night and day.

Loads of people can ride a 10 miles TT in 19 mins, VERY few can ride a 10 mile TT in 17 mins, two in fact have done so in open competition, Michael Hutchinson and Bradley Wiggins.

lyn1

okgo wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

ilovegrace wrote:

Ask yourself , how much cycling does Mo Farah do and how much running does Bradly Wiggins do ?

But the Brownlees excel at cycling, running and swimming. Alistair Brownlee ran his olympic gold 10,000 metres about 90 seconds slower than Mo Farah ran his. If Brownlee hadn't just done a long swim and bike ride he could well have beaten Farahs time.

Anyway I'm not sure that SkyBlueAmateur or I are looking to to excel at either. I'm looking to enjoy running and encourage my kids to enjoy it. My main exercise will still be cycling. Running will, I hope, complement it.

Brownlee would not win most popular open TT's, he'd get beaten by people with full time jobs outside of sport.

Like wise not on this planet would he get near Mo Farah in the individual 10k, in fact Farah 10k PB is nearly 2 mins quicker than Brownlee, 2 mins at that level is night and day.

Loads of people can ride a 10 miles TT in 19 mins, VERY few can ride a 10 mile TT in 17 mins, two in fact have done so in open competition, Michael Hutchinson and Bradley Wiggins.

Agree with your last 2 sentences.

Scott Thwaites or Josh Edmondson, who live a couple of miles from the Brownlees and train with them on occasions, will confirm their ability as cyclists. Certainly good enough for British based UCI Conti teams. When the Reliability rides that start with 400 riders develop into races, and end up with a handful of riders clear, then its inevitably a few pros and the Brownlees who are left.
http://www.ilkleygazette.co.uk/sport/10 ... harfedale/

lyn1

madasahattersley wrote:

lyn1 wrote:

okgo wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

ilovegrace wrote:

Ask yourself , how much cycling does Mo Farah do and how much running does Bradly Wiggins do ?

But the Brownlees excel at cycling, running and swimming. Alistair Brownlee ran his olympic gold 10,000 metres about 90 seconds slower than Mo Farah ran his. If Brownlee hadn't just done a long swim and bike ride he could well have beaten Farahs time.

Anyway I'm not sure that SkyBlueAmateur or I are looking to to excel at either. I'm looking to enjoy running and encourage my kids to enjoy it. My main exercise will still be cycling. Running will, I hope, complement it.

Brownlee would not win most popular open TT's, he'd get beaten by people with full time jobs outside of sport.

Like wise not on this planet would he get near Mo Farah in the individual 10k, in fact Farah 10k PB is nearly 2 mins quicker than Brownlee, 2 mins at that level is night and day.

Loads of people can ride a 10 miles TT in 19 mins, VERY few can ride a 10 mile TT in 17 mins, two in fact have done so in open competition, Michael Hutchinson and Bradley Wiggins.

Agree with your last 2 sentences.

Scott Thwaites or Josh Edmondson, who live a couple of miles from the Brownlees and train with them on occasions, will confirm their ability as cyclists. Certainly good enough for British based UCI Conti teams. When the Reliability rides that start with 400 riders develop into races, and end up with a handful of riders clear, then its inevitably a few pros and the Brownlees who are left.
http://www.ilkleygazette.co.uk/sport/10 ... harfedale/

If you think a reliability trial is in the same league as even the lowest of low level UCI races then you need your head checked.

That's not what I said. What I sought to do was to add to the debate about where the Brownlees would fit in the hierarchy if they were cyclists, given I have known these lads since they were youths and also have close knowledge of our local UCI pros who ride for or rode for Sky, NetApp-Endura, UK Youth, Raleigh, Motorpoint, Node4, Sigma Endura etc. As I said, reliability rides here often turn into RACES (involving guys who have won Premiers, Tour Series, Elite Circuit Series, Tour of Britain jerseys, and UCI .1 and .HC race podiums. The sharp end is very high. Even some of the pros and full timers get dropped, yet the Brownlees hang in well. It was merely an illustration. Based on a pretty sound knowledge of the general strengths of riders in the UCI Conti teams through several years involvement at this level and knowledge of the Brownlees, (not just this one illustration) I think they fit Division 3. They would not be the strongest riders in the British UCI Conti teams, but certainly good enough to make those teams.

caadybrompton

okgo wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

ilovegrace wrote:

Ask yourself , how much cycling does Mo Farah do and how much running does Bradly Wiggins do ?

But the Brownlees excel at cycling, running and swimming. Alistair Brownlee ran his olympic gold 10,000 metres about 90 seconds slower than Mo Farah ran his. If Brownlee hadn't just done a long swim and bike ride he could well have beaten Farahs time.

Anyway I'm not sure that SkyBlueAmateur or I are looking to to excel at either. I'm looking to enjoy running and encourage my kids to enjoy it. My main exercise will still be cycling. Running will, I hope, complement it.

Brownlee would not win most popular open TT's, he'd get beaten by people with full time jobs outside of sport.

Like wise not on this planet would he get near Mo Farah in the individual 10k, in fact Farah 10k PB is nearly 2 mins quicker than Brownlee, 2 mins at that level is night and day.

Loads of people can ride a 10 miles TT in 19 mins, VERY few can ride a 10 mile TT in 17 mins, two in fact have done so in open competition, Michael Hutchinson and Bradley Wiggins.

I consider myself a runner first and cyclist second. The two can work together but you have to get the balance right.
Currently i use my rides to recover from hard running sessions, low gear , high cadence , taking the impact out of sore legs. I know some marathoners at the sharp end (Sub2.20) do this also. It can help you recover quicker between intense sessions. In terms of it improving my cycling , next to nothing.

You're right 2mins is massive in running terms. Farrah's last lap is 53.8secs(400m) he would have lapped Brownlee twice and some if they were to race a 10k.
Sharp end club runners Paul Martelleti, Phil Wicks,Steve Way are all 29min 10k runners.

Don't get me wrong the Brownlee's are very good at TT and will give most a run for their money at Running or Cycling , but not at the real top end of either of those sports like Farrah,Wiggins et al. You'll find they (Farrah,Wiggins) simply have to practice their respective disciplines as much as possible to really excel at World/Olympic/TDF level.

BenderRodriguez

Why all the argument about elite level athletes? Most people are, let's face it, 'donkeys' in their respective sports and avoiding running and sticking exclusively to the bike because this might allow you do do a 23.20 '10' instead of a 23.30 seems pretty pointless.

I do some running in the winter because I find it enjoyable, it gives me a good cardio workout when going out on the bike would be miserable and I enjoy being able to apply my fitness to whatever challenges that might come along. (Years ago a load of cycling friends and football playing work mates decided to take part in a long-distance challenge walk: to see supposedly 'supremely fit' cyclists staggering like cripples after less than 10 miles and having to get in the bus was not edifying.)

Another issue is that doing nothing but cycling is not good for your long term health, especially in relation to bone density. A bit of running provides the ideal counter to this.

phil s

I'm with Bender. Good all-round fitness and strength is important for us mere mortals. I'm biased towards cycling, but I love a bit of running from time to time and it really helps sharpen the mind in the winter, especially those days where a bike ride would be depressing as hell.

wallace_and_gromit

phil s wrote:

I'm with Bender. Good all-round fitness and strength is important for us mere mortals. I'm biased towards cycling, but I love a bit of running from time to time and it really helps sharpen the mind in the winter, especially those days where a bike ride would be depressing as hell.

I'm primarily a cyclist and was previously primarily a rower, but have always included 1 or 2 running sessions each week. It's very time-efficient, excellent for weight-management and reaches some body parts that other disciplines - particularly cycling - don't reach, which is good for long-term health. In addition, it's relatively pleasant running in the lashing rain, which is my nemesis on the bike.

If I had no constraints on my time, like the pros, and was trying to go as fast as I could on the bike, I'd ditch running, as if one is to squeeze the last fraction of a percent of performance out of the bike, one needs to train specifically.

Re the Brownlees, it's not their running and cycling performances that are so impressive; it's being able to run as fast as they do whilst also being able to swim 1500m in a lake in not much more than a quarter of an hour that is really mind-boggling. They are clearly supreme athletes of the supremest kind, albeit different to supreme athletes of the running and cycling kind.

okgo

@lyn1

Even most domestic pro's would get beat in a popular open TT by people who have full time jobs. Do you think Brownlee would get near Matt Bottrill? Not a chance.

lyn1

okgo wrote:

@lyn1

Even most domestic pro's would get beat in a popular open TT by people who have full time jobs. Do you think Brownlee would get near Matt Bottrill? Not a chance.

Most domestic pros would rarely if ever do a TT in their race programme or gear any training to it, so if you pitch them against guys who (irrespective of whether they are "pro" or not), focus specifically on that event, can find enough time to optimise their performance and are amongst the best few "amateurs", then I would agree with you. Likewise with the Brownlee example. The Brownlees do not race the bike leg of Tri as a TT, so presumably do not train that way. Once you move down slightly on the top handful of "amateur" TT riders, the picture would start to change. I would agree with the suggestion that a small number of amateurs would beat a large number of pros at an event they focus on and which the pros do not focus on. Beyond that there will be a very small number of clear exceptions, one of which you cited, where the "amateurs" would beat virtually all the pros, even if the pros focused on it.

phil s

Maybe everyone discussing the Brownlees can get a room and take the hypotheticals to another topic?

okgo

Might as well fill the time with something, the thread was concluded in about 3 posts, the rest has been much more interesting

mrfpb

phil s wrote:

Maybe everyone discussing the Brownlees can get a room and take the hypotheticals to another topic?

All my fault. I didn't realise my observation would get so many people in an indignant tizz.

The OP and I both have taken up running about three miles a week. I've managed to sustain an injury just doing that amount, and haven't had much exercise for over a week. Someone was mentioning barefoot/minimalist trainers earlier and I thought they sounded interesting. Anyone else had experience with these for trail running?

Tom Dean

Is this a joke? :?

lyn1

mrfpb wrote:

phil s wrote:

Maybe everyone discussing the Brownlees can get a room and take the hypotheticals to another topic?

All my fault. I didn't realise my observation would get so many people in an indignant tizz.

The OP and I both have taken up running about three miles a week. I've managed to sustain an injury just doing that amount, and haven't had much exercise for over a week. Someone was mentioning barefoot/minimalist trainers earlier and I thought they sounded interesting. Anyone else had experience with these for trail running?

No need to apologise, as okgo says, you raised some interesting debating points.
As to the barefoot issue, this may help
http://www.barefootathlete.co.uk/blog/k ... champions/

skyblueamateur

It is no wonder you got muscle problems when you're knocking out less than 7 minute miles after so many years. Allowing for warm up and cool down you must have been pushing yourself a lot harder. Also include stretching in your programme.

I was approximating. It was 2.6 miles in 19.18 so 7.20 pace. Don't have a clue whether this was a decent pace or not. I didn't feel too bad HR wise and nowhere near as bad as I do on some turbo sessions on the bike.

I'm under no illusions that I'll be a top-class athlete in either cycling or running. I'm under time restrictions because of having a young family. Cycling is my main enjoyment but I thought I might mix it up a bit.

Having read about some of the injuries, and with my previous, I think I'll probably give the running a swerve and do a high intesity turbo session instead.

Thanks for the replies 8)

BenderRodriguez

mrfpb wrote:

The OP and I both have taken up running about three miles a week. I've managed to sustain an injury just doing that amount, and haven't had much exercise for over a week. Someone was mentioning barefoot/minimalist trainers earlier and I thought they sounded interesting. Anyone else had experience with these for trail running?

Two points. Firstly, that running just three miles a week should lead to injury illustrates what 'one trick ponies' many cyclists are and in my view shows just why cyclists need to incorporate running and other activities into their training cycle. (Does anyone else remember the pathetic performances of the pro cyclists on the old 'Superstars' programme? :oops: )

Secondly, using minimalist footwear is likely to make things worse, as doing so would increase the shock loading on joints and muscles that can already hardly bear it. What works for a Kenyan raised from childhood to run bare footed will not help someone who can't run three miles a week without injury (or come to that an experienced runner who has always used cushioned shoes). There may well be a case for bare footed running or the use of minimalist footwear, but the adaptation required might well take a long time if injury is not to be a likely outcome, especially if you do a lot of running on the road.

To start with just get some comfortable shoes with ample cushioning (ignoring all the hype about motion control and so forth, instead work with not against your natural gait) and build up the mileage slowly.