Returned goods being sold as new...?

nigelgos

I won't mention the etailer as I might be jumping to conclusions and don't want to damage reputations (and get myself into trouble).

My Fulcrum R5 2013 arrived today. Firstly the box looked like it had been re-sellotaped. Then inside the package the A4 padded envelope was missing the spacers. The skewers and instructions inside the envelope were not in a further sealed bag (YouTube videos show Fulcrum usually do).

Cosmetically everything looks fine apart from the missing spacers that I need so although I know I may be being a little nit-picky I don't like the idea that I may be buying returned goods.

Someone put me at ease and tell me they just forgot to put the spacers in at the factory

Bobbinogs

What do you think happens to the kit that gets sent back because it is the wrong size or perhaps the 'buyer' had a change of mind? As long as it is in a sellable condition then that is fine by me (I certainly wouldn't accept wheels that had been used but the odd bit of Sellotape that is awry would be fine).

bendertherobot

My Ribble ones were missing a spacer

barrybarryr

I've just had/having exactly the same issue with Evans. Bought a Madone 3.5 on the weekend which is a lovely bike but it's blatantly been used before.

As with you cosmetically everything looks fine but I can tell it has been used.

Apparently my bike is a "sleeved" bike which means people may have used it in another store as a demo, they didn't tell me this at the time I paid for it.

I'm not very impressed with Evans at the moment.

navrig

barrybarryr wrote:

I've just had/having exactly the same issue with Evans. Bought a Madone 3.5 on the weekend which is a lovely bike but it's blatantly been used before.

But it's not the same. The OP does not say they wheels have been used, perhaps sold and returned.

There are plenty of posts on here about people buying multiple sizes in clothes and shoes, the idea being you return the ones which don't fit. What's the difference for wheels?

nigelgos

On closer inspection the rear rim has a couple of light paint scuffs too - like it's previously been rolled across a floor. I don't think your allowed to sell items as new once they have been returned. If they are B grades or seconds they have to state this.

spanner239

nigelgos wrote:

I won't mention the etailer as I might be jumping to conclusions and don't want to damage reputations (and get myself into trouble).

My Fulcrum R5 2013 arrived today. Firstly the box looked like it had been re-sellotaped. Then inside the package the A4 padded envelope was missing the spacers. The skewers and instructions inside the envelope were not in a further sealed bag (YouTube videos show Fulcrum usually do).

Cosmetically everything looks fine apart from the missing spacers that I need so although I know I may be being a little nit-picky I don't like the idea that I may be buying returned goods.

Someone put me at ease and tell me they just forgot to put the spacers in at the factory

I have bought two pairs of Fulcrum R5's and neither pair had the skewers in a sealed bag within the Jiffy envelope. I did send a pair back however to Wiggle following a change of heart switch to Campagnolo! Presume you have bought the Shimano version if missing the spacer.

Does the box have any additional old delivery labels attached or ripped areas where they would have been, that is one way to tell if returned?

cycleclinic

There can be scuffs and marks on goods when they are recieved from the distributor, sometimes the packaging is opened there could be many reasons for your "issue" it may not be the retailers doing.

The above poster retuning his wheels means those have been resold wiggle have to to stay in business.

What are we supposed to do then not sell it again if we did that online retail fall apart and online retailers go out of business. I have handbuilt wheels returned for a refund which I had to give because the buyer decided he did not want them any more. I still have them expensive ones too. I have to sell them at some point as there is £400 tied up in these or start using them myself.

Returns are a fact of life in business but these goods have to be resold. Separating new stock from returned stock on an online store is not viable as you would need separates listings for all of that and it would never sell except for a loss which means retailers will stop accepting returns or prices will have to rise. As returns are enshrined in law under distance selling laws a law change would be needed or price hikes upon which online retailers will go out of business. Is that what you want?

Do you think you LBS separates returned stock from never sold before stock. Of course they don't those parts get used in the workshop and you never know.

Or maybe buyers should returning stock to us we won't mind honest we won't. And as for buying may sizes of clothing and returning the ones not fitting right that is bad of the buyer. If you do not know the size that fits you visit a shop and buy from there, that is what they are for!

nigelgos

spanner239 wrote:

I have bought two pairs of Fulcrum R5's and neither pair had the skewers in a sealed bag within the Jiffy envelope. I did send a pair back however to Wiggle following a change of heart switch to Campagnolo! Presume you have bought the Shimano version if missing the spacer.

Does the box have any additional old delivery labels attached or ripped areas where they would have been, that is one way to tell if returned?

Good to know regarding the non sealed skewers - maybe I'm over reacting Still annoyed I can't get the new wheels on without the spacers.

thecycleclinic wrote:

What are we supposed to do then not sell it again if we did that online retail fall apart and online retailers go out of business. I have handbuilt wheels returned for a refund which I had to give because the buyer decided he did not want them any more. I still have them expensive ones too. I have to sell them at some point as there is £400 tied up in these or start using them myself.

I guess handbuilds are slightly different here as there is a manually process to these anyway. But when selling sealed stock shouldn't etailers have to factor in the price of dealing with returns and DSR (I'm sure they do)? Yes it hikes the price slightly but it means we don't get seconds passed off as new. If I wanted that I'd have bought from eBay.

rjsmith

I bought some Fulcrums from JE James which arrived without the skewers/manual pack. I emailed them and they sent it out very quickly. the box looked liek it had been opened before but the wheels looked perfect so no issue for me.

Unlike Planet X where I recently bought some demo wheels which arrived with a broken spoke and bearings so rough it was awful. Didn't give me much confidence in their QC at dispatch. Howevber, they are sorting it out hopefully for me now without any hassle (except for having to send it back).

cycleclinic

Nigelos,

We do factor in the cost of returns but a return is not a second by a long way. Most of the time a return has not been used, if I feel a return has been used I would post it straight back to the buyer with no refund (this has only happened once thankfully). What we factor in is the cost of the reurn assuming we can resell it. If we had to dispose of returns at below cost then the price hike would be to above RRP as a return would wipe of profits of the next few sales. Every time I get a return on my ebay shop then given I have to offer "free" postage now the cost of the return means I make no profit on the item and probably the next few I sell (margins are very tight). If I could not resell it then I go out of business it is that simple. Other online retailers are in exactly the same position -margins in the online cycling trade are very tight.

Try running a business and the reasons why things are done the way they are become very apparant if you want to keep the lights on.

Returns are not seconds in all shops including high street shops returns are resold. In what way do you think opened packaging new a second or used. In what way does opening the packaging mean the product is used. I have had complaints before about posting out a record headet with the seal on the box broken. I had a customer who wanted to take a look at one so I opened the box. I later sold that headset and the buyer complained the seal was broken, it blantently had never been used or fitted in any way (such use would be very obvious) what am I supposed to do tell people they cannot look at boxed items in the shop because other wise they have to buy it, that is not tenable but it also the consequence of doing what you want done. I cannot afford to have a display item which I can never sell a new for the hundreds of stock items in the shop that is not real either.

Your attidute to new means all business would go out of business unless there are significant price hikes would you be willing to pay an extra 20% on everything to cover the cost of the way you want things done.

There is cost to everything, please think about that. The online market is so competetive at present that the operating model you suggest is not viable.

RJ smith
JE James probaly opened the box to check the everything wa correct but missed the lack of skewers or they opened to take the skewers for someone else but forgot to replace, it happens unfortunatley the main thing is they are sending them out.

on-yer-bike

There is nothing wrong with buying two different sizes and sending one back. Its an integral part of shopping online.
I think what some companies are not doing is checking the returned goods. Some customers probably abuse the system and send back stuff that they have used or damaged or is incomplete and the retailer has accepted the return and put it back into stock without checking it. The whole system is based on trust and mutual respect.

markhewitt1978

But I would expect a returned item to be repackaged "as new". That may well mean it having a new box, new plastic bags, new manuals inserted etc etc.

drlodge

How an item is packaged has nothing to do with the condition of the thing you actually bought though? You're paying for the item, not the packaging, the packing is there just to protect the item. As long as they item is "as good as new" then no issue surely.

slowbike

markhewitt1978 wrote:

But I would expect a returned item to be repackaged "as new". That may well mean it having a new box, new plastic bags, new manuals inserted etc etc.

Really?! The first thing you do is rip the box open, tear open the plastic bag and ditch the manual ...

Well, you do unless you're telling us you're not a MAN ...

markhewitt1978

How else can you be sure that all the little grommits etc that you need are actually there?

cycleclinic

Were are retailers going to get new packaging from, the distributors do not supply that seperatley, so that i not possible and if such packaging were available can you imagine how much campagnolo packaging would cost it would not be worth it.

Buying two different sizes of clothing in my book means you do not know what size fits you in which case visit a shop that i what they are for. On -line retail in my book is for those who know exactly what they need. I get e-mails all the time from people who have no clue what parts fit what on there bike and I have to spend alot of time explain the comaptability of the various products. I do that because I want to help but really they should be visting an LBS as if they cannot understand the compability can they really fit the part? I do not sell clothing online as I do not want to be dealing with the inevitable returns as I do not believe I could turn a profit on clothing without doing very high volumes.

If you do not know exactly the size you need in clothing visit a shop and buy from there and the same goes for bike parts. If I buy the wrong thing from a ditributor I cannot send it back, I have to know what I am buying.

Buy to look and see if it will work and then return if it does not is not how it is supposed to work (at least the way I look at retail), showrooms/shops exist for that reason use them.

I do not want to give the impression that returns are a problem they are not and I factor a return rate into my pricing (which i why it is not a problem). I also bend over backwards to help people and I do not quibble when it comes to returns (as I value customers and most retailers are the same) but to be honest some buyers need to man up a bit or just ask for advise before they buy to ensure they get the right part. Now there is an idea.

slowbike

markhewitt1978 wrote:

How else can you be sure that all the little grommits etc that you need are actually there?

That's the responsibility of the retailer to check/trust that they have been returned.

slowbike

thecycleclinic wrote:

Buying two different sizes of clothing in my book means you do not know what size fits you in which case visit a shop that i what they are for.

I can't believe ppl do that .. that's exactly what a physical shop is good for - trying on the different sizes and find one that fits - even same sized items may fit differently and not be right for you.

Bobbinogs

thecycleclinic wrote:

...Buying two different sizes of clothing in my book means you do not know what size fits you ...

Correct. I know what size I am but the problem is that every manufacturer has their own view of what my size is...and even that varies between models!!

I often buy two sizes when I am unsure but I make sure my returns are immaculate. My wife worked in retail so she does the unpackaging and refolding, etc.

apreading

But very often you cant find what you want in stock, in your size in a physical shop - even if you are prepared to travel. Plus sizing of cycling clothes varies so much.

There is nothing wrong with online retailers selling returned stock as new, provided the item really is 'as new'. If not then they should refuse to refund or charge a fee to cover their loss. For clothing, you wouldnt expect every item that someone takes into a changing room and decides not to buy to be taken off the shelves would you? That is the same as me returning an item to an online retailer that doesnt fit.

For handbuilt stuff like wheels, where the specification is bespoke, most online places say that it is not refundable or at least that a percentage is deducted from the refund - this is also fair enough.

We really need to decide how much we want to pay. It is hypocrytical to buy online to get good prices and then moan that corners have been cut - thats how they can afford to sell stuff at that price...

Bozman

I always buy two sizes on-line because I've learnt my lesson in the past, cycling clothing is very hit and miss with sizing so you just send back the one that doesn't fit. I must have ordered £300/£400s worth of winter clothing a month ago and I probably sent £150 back due to sizing, the retailer won't be p1ssed at me because I still spent £250.
Folk use the net for the vast choice of clothing etc, the ease of order, the free delivery and generally free returns.
If you want a Castelli Gabba(common issue on this forum), you order a M and L from an on-line retailer, they arrive two days later, you try them on and then you send one back..... or maybe two if you're unlucky on size, Bobs your uncle. No peeing about finding an LBS that stocks one, no petrol, no parking and no hassle.
It's the age we live in.

drlodge

Bozman wrote:

I always buy two sizes on-line because I've learnt my lesson in the past, cycling clothing is very hit and miss with sizing so you just send back the one that doesn't fit. I must have ordered £300/£400s worth of winter clothing a month ago and I probably sent £150 back due to sizing, the retailer won't be p1ssed at me because I still spent £250.
Folk use the net for the vast choice of clothing etc, the ease of order, the free delivery and generally free returns.
If you want a Castelli Gabba(common issue on this forum), you order a M and L from an on-line retailer, they arrive two days later, you try them on and then you send one back..... or maybe two if you're unlucky on size, Bobs your uncle. No peeing about finding an LBS that stocks one, no petrol, no parking and no hassle.
It's the age we live in.

Same here. Same could also apply to buying a new bike - order 2 or 3 in different sizes to see which one fits best...keep one and return the rest. I doubt many people would do this in practice but there's nothing wrong with the principle if the shop is offering this kind of returns policy. Now if a bike is returned that isn't in a resalable condtion, its up to the retailer to spot this and take it up with the original purchaser (and refuse to issue a refund). Future customers of these pre-bought bikes will see the boxes have been opened, but that's no issue as long as the bikes are "as good as new". They're buying the bike, not the box.

d10brp

The whole buying two things and returning one thing is a funny one. In an ideal world where LBSs have a plentiful supply of all the brands I agree, it is best to buy from them with a proper fitting if you are unsure. But the main problem is that there is actually very little choice in the shops I tend to visit. Still, I've never actually ordered twice. I've once returned an item for a different size but I can see the benefit of ordering two.

But the attitude of expecting a new, untouched, product? Wake up from your dream, go find a shop, physically pick up one that looks untouched, pay more.

markhewitt1978

thecycleclinic wrote:

Were are retailers going to get new packaging from, the distributors do not supply that seperatley, so that i not possible and if such packaging were available can you imagine how much campagnolo packaging would cost it would not be worth it.
.

So instead of the proper manufacturer packaging I'm supposed to accept opened packaging or something you'd stuffed in a plastic bag. Wow. Never doing business with you.

drlodge

markhewitt1978 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Were are retailers going to get new packaging from, the distributors do not supply that seperatley, so that i not possible and if such packaging were available can you imagine how much campagnolo packaging would cost it would not be worth it.
.

So instead of the proper manufacturer packaging I'm supposed to accept opened packaging or something you'd stuffed in a plastic bag. Wow. Never doing business with you.

As long as the goods are fine, what does the condition of the packaging matter? I would agree that damaged packaging, which allows the goods to be damaged, is an issue...but otherwise..? What's the first thing you do with the packaging...throw it away. So it doesn't matter!

rolf_f

markhewitt1978 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Were are retailers going to get new packaging from, the distributors do not supply that seperatley, so that i not possible and if such packaging were available can you imagine how much campagnolo packaging would cost it would not be worth it.
.

So instead of the proper manufacturer packaging I'm supposed to accept opened packaging or something you'd stuffed in a plastic bag. Wow. Never doing business with you.

Yep, you are absolutely right. The only logical solution for the problem is for all sellers to ban all returns. "You bought it, you keep it" - there you go. No problems with returned goods either for the seller or the second buyer. You are a genius!

pkripper

markhewitt1978 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Were are retailers going to get new packaging from, the distributors do not supply that seperatley, so that i not possible and if such packaging were available can you imagine how much campagnolo packaging would cost it would not be worth it.
.

So instead of the proper manufacturer packaging I'm supposed to accept opened packaging or something you'd stuffed in a plastic bag. Wow. Never doing business with you.

I have no problem with opened packaging if I'm certain the product is new. Probably would send carbon stuff back if so, but clothes, wheels etc - I'm pretty comfortable I'm able to determine whether something is used / damaged / scuffed etc.

And show me a retailer who'd just stuff something in a plastic bag, and I'll show you a failing business. I'd happily buy off thecycleclinic, seems a perfectly reasonable approach. I'm sure most will agree.

barrybarryr

If you buy something as new, it should be new.

If it has been returned the shop should be obliged to tell you it is a return.

Nobody wants to buy something that someone has had before.

apreading

barrybarryr wrote:

If you buy something as new, it should be new.

If it has been returned the shop should be obliged to tell you it is a return.

Nobody wants to buy something that someone has had before.

You better close down every clothes shop in the high street too then - they let people try clothes on - and get this, if the people dont then buy them, they put them back on the shelves and sell them as new...!

Actually, come to think of it - if I go into Tesco (or other well known supermarkets) and take a product off the shelf to read the label - the shop shouldnt let me put it back and then sell it as new either!

rolf_f

barrybarryr wrote:

Nobody wants to buy something that someone has had before.

Speak for yourself. Most things I buy are second hand........