Weight Training cycling specific

w00dster

I'm sure this topic has been discussed on a daily basis, ive looked at a lot of threads and can't really see a consensus of opinion.
My background is in Rugby and moved to cycling as a way to keep fit at the end of my rugby days. I was always regarded as being of a good level of both cardio and strength / power fitness. I appreciate the two sports are poles apart and the training required for each is massively different.
But, I'm interested to know and understand what peoples thoughts are regarding weight training, covering core and leg workouts.
Is there any benefit in performing leg exercises (squats, deadlifts, dynamic lunges etc)? I'm thinking about lighter weights in the endurance range (so 12 to 15 reps).
I'm not that experienced a rider so my reasoning could well be flawed but here's an example.....
Hill climbing, when the going gets tough and I want to get out ofthe saddle, if I have stronger (trained) hamstrings, glutes and core (starting at hip flexors, abs and specifically the erector spinae - I know anatomically the hip flexors aren't core, but they seem to get worked during a lot of core exercise's) - so if I have worked on these body parts, will I not feel a benefit and be stronger when I need to use them?
As part of my rugby training we incorporated sprint training, this was focused on making the most effective use of our muscular system, looking at how work your glutes so they are firing properly, then using this in our specific sport.
With my very limited cycling knowledge, I personally can see where it would be beneficial. I appreciate cycling is endurance based but we still had endurance athletes involved in our sessions.
Be good to be pointed to some useful reading and to hear other people's opinion. Apologies if this is a newb question that has been done to death.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Yes, it's been done to death.

1. it's an aerobic sport and not a strength sport, even hill climbing. the forces involved are very low, significantly sub-maximal. it might not seem that way, but it is the case. A fit rider might be pushing on average an equivalent force of 0.2 - 0.3kg per kg of body mass by both legs while climbing. I'm guessing you are capable of nearly an order of magniture more force than that when doing a squat (e.g. 1-2 times body mass, or more than 2 times if a sprinter type). Would you consider sustaining such a repeated low force demand to be limited by your leg press strength?

2. the actual evidence on the matter is equivocal, some research claims some minor improvements in endurance cycling performance but rarely compares such training with other training known to be more efficacious, many studies find no benefit and some find it detrimental.

3. irrespective, people will believe what they want to believe and quote all sorts of anecdata, and so you will get a variety of opinion on the topic.

4. do it if you enjoy it, keeps you motivated, and cycle racing up long hills isn't your sole goal in life (for some it is). What an everyday person needs out of doing exercise is different to what someone dedicated to endurance cycle racing needs.

w00dster

Hi guys,
Thanks for taking the time to answer. And sorry about dragging this subject up, I'm someone who loves to discuss with people much more experienced in the field than me and was hoping you guys and Rik would reply!! SORRY!! I hope you can see this is me trying to further my knowledge of cycling and not merely trying to be argumentative.
I have a bad habit of trying to understand what I should be doing to help me improve, not just being told by a trainer/coach, but actually understanding why a training system or programme benefits a specific sport.
My goals with cycling are merely to keep fit, but as im sure you guys are aware, we are all after continuous improvements. I know there are no short cuts just hard work. But its about ensuring the hard work is focused in the correct areas.

Being honest, at my age now (only 40) but with a tendor body, I tend to be unable do weight training without it negatively impacting my rides, and vice versa. After a tough bike session I couldn't adequately perform in the gym the next day, so would be a waste of a session.
Unfortunately I work away so only get to ride at weekends. I do take my sufferfest vids with me and use on a spin bike or gym bike. I also attend a spin club in central London run by real cyclists (not usual PT spin people), my weight training just focuses on core and a bit of upper body, but I no longer lift heavy weights and do it purely out of enjoyment.

Thanks again for your answers. I guess I need to htfu and start taking my bike away with me.....light bulb moment, I stay in the same hotel, ive just found the perfect excuse for buying a new bike - I could leave my current bike here in London and buy a new one for at home, excellent!!!!

ric/rstsport

I'm here now ;-).

Cycling will make you better at cycling, but some weight/strength training may make you stronger. This maybe important for you if cycling isn't your number 1 issue (as it maybe if you say race). whether you should do weights/strength/core etc is difficult to work out via a forum.

ric

bahzob

The first rule of training is specificity.

Based on this the best training for riding a bike is riding a bike. If time is limited then spending scarce time on anything else is wasted time.

However:
- There is more to life than riding a bike. If you are riding as a means to a bigger goal such as improving general fitness/well being then it's pretty certain that spending some time doing exercise other than cycling will be beneficial.
-> The highest priority should be core work. I recommended a book here http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12947249&p=18612346#p18612346 that is especially good for this.
- Even if you are only interested in riding a bike it is quite possible (even likely) that your ability to do so will be compromised due to limitations that could best be fixed by focussed non-bike workouts. A good bike fitter should be able to tell you whether this is the case or not. Many pro riders include core and strength workouts in their training schedules for precisely this reason.
- Non-bike work does not necessarily have to have an impact on bike training. It can be scheduled to take place on low effort days and/or when you don't have access to a bike (e.g. at work during lunch break, while travelling)
- To a lesser extent the same applies to strength workouts. However these need even more care as if done to excess they may have no beneficial effect in terms of cycling and may even be counter productive.

All the above applies to all. It applies even more so imo as you get older.

dennisn

I've noticed that these "discussion's" of the value of weight training always seem to draw people who tend to believe that cycling and only cycling will improve your cycling. They seem to believe that cycling is somehow a "special" sport that only requires that you ride a bike. If it's your desire to be a fast and competitive rider then yes, you gotta get on that bike. However, all people are not the same and trying to apply the rule that all you need to do is ride, to everyone, may be true for some but not for all.
My opinion is that whatever helps you get better at a given sport, if you want to get better, is what you will have to do. Because someone said that weights won't help YOU is not proof that they will or won't. You (and your coach - if you have one) need to work to find what makes you better at pedaling a bike and then do it. If it's found that running helps
you attain a better level of fitness, as opposed to just riding, well, then you've got at least a part of your answer in the pursuit of being a better cyclist.
Take stretching for example. A good stretching program could very well allow you to stay on the bike more by helping you to stay injury free.
As for weight training. Doesn't it make your muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc. stronger? How is this NOT a valuable thing to do to your body? Once again, it may help you stay on the bike longer because it may lessen injuries, and thereby it may make you a better rider.
One things that really riles me about this ongoing "debate" is that many people feel the need to chime in and say something to the effect of "you don't need to be strong to competitively race bikes". Believe what you will guy's but I've been to enough races to know that the stronger riders are the ones that come across the line first.
The ones who win races around here (and I'm sure pretty much everywhere) are NOT the ones who simply ride. It's the guys who do more than just ride. It's the ones who do what they have discovered they must do to win that come out on top.

ric/rstsport

Dennis, as i'm sure you know, this has been pointed out to you on many occasions - it's your misunderstanding of the word(s) strength/stronger that is causing you issues.

It's well known, and indeed can be calculated that the force requirements of (endurance) cycling are very low, such that just about anyone can reach them. Strength is defined as the maximal force that a muscle or group of muscles can generate.

You're suggesting that stronger riders win races - this is untrue in the context of the correct meaning of the word strength. it may be correct if you use strength to mean something else (e.g. aerobic power). But that's an incorrect use of the word strength and continually repeating it as the correct meaning won't make it so.

Ric

dennisn

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

Dennis, as i'm sure you know, this has been pointed out to you on many occasions - it's your misunderstanding of the word(s) strength/stronger that is causing you issues.

It's well known, and indeed can be calculated that the force requirements of (endurance) cycling are very low, such that just about anyone can reach them. Strength is defined as the maximal force that a muscle or group of muscles can generate.

You're suggesting that stronger riders win races - this is untrue in the context of the correct meaning of the word strength. it may be correct if you use strength to mean something else (e.g. aerobic power). But that's an incorrect use of the word strength and continually repeating it as the correct meaning won't make it so.

Ric

Your take on the word strong definitely is different than mine. Although I do believe that most of the world sees the words strength or strong in pretty much the same context that I do. When you read about someone winning a race, or any athletic endeavor for that matter, there is a lot of talk about this person or that team being "stronger", bicycle races included. Everyone says it. "Wow, that guy sure was strong on that climb." or "Talk about a strong finish." or "Man, it sure takes a lot of strength to post a time that fast." Happens all the time and I mean all the time. So you go ahead and continue to claim that your meaning of the words strong and strength are the right one's and 99.9% of the world is wrong.

ric/rstsport

when you're talking about training and physiology then you need to use the word as intended. It's like learning another language (e.g. French) and insisting that (e.g.) French people have the word wrong because you (and other non-Frenc speakers) use it incorrectly.

That said even if you use the word incorrectly (as you are) but understand it's correct meaning (as you appear to) then it still means that (actual) strength requirements of cycling are low and therefore it's unlikely that (e.g.) weights will do much for you.

However, if you look in a regular dictionary you'll find that the definition of strength is
1) the state of being mentally or physically strong
2) the ability to exert or withstand great force

which of course is the definition that is used in physiology (the maximal force that can be generated).

cheers
ric

dennisn

madasahattersley wrote:

dennisn wrote:

When you read about someone winning a race, or any athletic endeavor for that matter, there is a lot of talk about this person or that team being "more powerful aerobically", bicycle races included. Everyone says it. "Wow, that guy sure had good lactate tolerance on that climb." or "Talk about a powerful finish." or "Man, it sure takes a lot of cardiovascular conditioning to post a time that fast." Happens all the time and I mean all the time.

Im sure most people the same height as Chris Froome have stronger legs, but it's his aerobic strength that makes him a phenomenal cyclist.

I honestly couldn't tell if that was a point or counterpoint. But I'm old and apparently don't understand much of anything.

keef66

" It's the ones who do what they have discovered they must do to win that come out on top"

isn't that where Lance went wrong??

Flâneur

I've not read all the above, but I would suggest weights would be beneficial, especially free weights. They help improve core strength, flexibility and can help delay muscle fatigue.

You don't need to be benching massive weights or aiming for new single max lifts but having a range of activities from deadlifts, squats (various), alternate bench press, lunges and good mornings will all help your general fitness. If you aim for a lower weight (think resistance rather than lifting) then you will just help muscles like your hamstring and glutes.

I also suggest free weights as the stability will help your core.

I don't have any science to back this up, I am not that informed, but I use a gym where to help my skiing I was given a workout which included weights and GB athletes come and use the coaches who have them do weights alongside other act ivies to help their performances.

At the end of the day if you enjoy it do the extras, they certainly won't harm you if done correctly.

keef66

" alternate bench press, lunges and good mornings "

I bet your definition of a good morning is different from mine...

dennisn

keef66 wrote:

" It's the ones who do what they have discovered they must do to win that come out on top"

isn't that where Lance went wrong??

As far as drugs go, yes, he went too far. Got too greedy. Didn't know when to quit(it's BEFORE you get caught - so to speak).
In any case LA seemed to be the type of person(anal retentive, if you will) that spent tons of time, money, effort, etc. on finding ways that would help him win. He was NOT the kind of person to just say well, all you need to do is ride more(like many on this forum). No, he looked into many, many things to try and find a little edge here and a little edge there. I'm pretty sure that to his way of thinking anything that was tried and didn't help was discarded and then the search for more "edges" continued. It would also seem that weight training was one of these edges. I have my doubts that he would lift for any reason other than it helped in his cycling quest. OK, maybe now due to vanity but back then he was as single minded as people get.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't just assume that because someone says that this or that will or won't work for you that they know what they what they are talking about. How could they possibly know what will or won't work for you until it's put to the test on you? It don't believe a good coach should or even would make the kinds of blanket statements that claim to cover all people, i.e "It won't help".

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

In any case LA ....
It would also seem that weight training was one of these edges. I have my doubts that he would lift for any reason other than it helped in his cycling quest. OK, maybe now due to vanity but back then he was as single minded as people get.

LA lifted weights after retirement primarily for personal reasons. When he decided to make a come back to pro cycling, he had to stop that training to undo the unhelpful effects.

dennisn wrote:

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't just assume that because someone says that this or that will or won't work for you that they know what they what they are talking about. How could they possibly know what will or won't work for you until it's put to the test on you? It don't believe a good coach should or even would make the kinds of blanket statements that claim to cover all people, i.e "It won't help".

Strawman.

Not one coach response here ever said "it won't help", nor have any provided specific advice for any individual as to what training they should do.

What we can say and have said is what the evidence of various studies over the last 30 years tells us, which is fairly equivocal with respect to endurance cycling performance.

Flâneur

keef66 wrote:

" alternate bench press, lunges and good mornings "

I bet your definition of a good morning is different from mine...

depends where I am and who I am with

nathancom

Dennisn is just a contrarian. He spent years trying to convince everyone Lance Armstrong was clean on the Pro Race section and is now trying to teach sports coaches what the word strength means just to have an argument.

Dennisn, your argument amounted to 'Do whatever makes you feel good and you will get better.' Well doing most training consistently will likely make you fitter but it won't be enough to beat the man next to you who has followed a specific training programme tailored to clear goals by professionals such as those who have answered you.

dennisn

nathancom wrote:

Dennisn is just a contrarian. He spent years trying to convince everyone Lance Armstrong was clean on the Pro Race section and is now trying to teach sports coaches what the word strength means just to have an argument.

Well doing most training consistently will likely make you fitter but it won't be enough to beat the man next to you who has followed a specific training programme tailored to clear goals by professionals such as those who have answered you.

"...contrarian(sp)..."? I do believe this is called a forum for a reason. If everyone agreed with you or myself it wouldn't even be a forum.

Don't believe I ever said LA didn't dope(I could be wrong on that). Was just asking the people who accused him to prove it. And none of you ever did.

As for weight training and whether it will do you any good? Of course it will. It's great exercise. You, and many others, seem to be of the mindset that everyone on this forum is preparing for an assault on the TDF title or something like that.

nathancom

The thread is called 'Weight Training cycling specific' not 'Weight Training general health and well being'

dennisn

nathancom wrote:

The thread is called 'Weight Training cycling specific' not 'Weight Training general health and well being'

Recently looked at a cycling web store and found more that a few books on weight training for cyclist's. Seems odd that anyone would be buying these things, apparently on a regular basis, if it was all a load of crap. Why would you believe anonymous people on a forum and then blow off, as wrong, coaches and authors of what appear to be well written and researched books on the subject?

All this sort of begs the question of why weight training seems to be the only form of exercise that helps in every other sport, but not cycling(according to you)? Opps, sorry, I forgot. Cycling is special. And I've asked that question before.

imposter2.0

A tip for anyone reading this thread - putting Dennis on 'ignore' makes a huge difference to your general browsing experience. And it works on every forum, too. Try it, you won't be disappointed.

dennisn

Imposter wrote:

A tip for anyone reading this thread - putting Dennis on 'ignore' makes a huge difference to your general browsing experience. And it works on every forum, too. Try it, you won't be disappointed.

So, what about all those "Weight Training for Cyclist's" books out there? Are they any more or less correct or incorrect than forum members? It's a viable question. :?

The Bounce

Ah, the joy of being a track sprinter and doing whatever I like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG4xiZF6zJ4&feature=em-subs_digest

dw300

So Dennis, you've established that your definition of strength is - How good someone is at doing something.

So can I ask you what word you use to describe - The maximum output of a muscle .. ?

napoleond

The Bounce wrote:

Ah, the joy of being a track sprinter and doing whatever I like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG4xiZF6zJ4&feature=em-subs_digest

Heh same here

Eddy S

The Bounce wrote:

Ah, the joy of being a track sprinter and doing whatever I like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG4xiZF6zJ4&feature=em-subs_digest

Where's the 'Like' button when you need one?!?

dennisn

dw300 wrote:

So Dennis, you've established that your definition of strength is - How good someone is at doing something.

No. You have established what you want and or need my definition of strength to be. We will never agree on what strength or strong means, apparently.
Oh well.

ric/rstsport

strength has a meaning that is well defined in language and science. i posted it previously. you can't redefine a word to mean what you want, it doesn't make sense.

dennisn

The Bounce wrote:

Ah, the joy of being a track sprinter and doing whatever I like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG4xiZF6zJ4&feature=em-subs_digest

Wish my basement looked like that. Or at least had SOME of the stuff they had. Love all the equipment but there are limits to what I can afford for a home gym. I really do like lifting but for some reason I don't like the idea of having to pack up my gym clothes, drive to the gym, change into my workout stuff, having to work around other people using things, get dressed(again), drive back home, etc. Guess it's a time thing with me. Hence my home gym. Someone, very wish, once said to me "Don't be a gym rat - get in, work hard, get out - it's not a social club". Although many might argue with the social club bit.

top_bhoy

dennisn wrote:

Imposter wrote:

A tip for anyone reading this thread - putting Dennis on 'ignore' makes a huge difference to your general browsing experience. And it works on every forum, too. Try it, you won't be disappointed.

So, what about all those "Weight Training for Cyclist's" books out there? Are they any more or less correct or incorrect than forum members? It's a viable question. :?

Generally, I tend to disagree with dennis much more than I ever agree with him (lets not venture into LA territory ) however, he does ask a fair question for those dismissing the importance of weight training in cycling. What is the validity of these books and materials?

I cycle only for pleasure; Not being concerned with pure cycle performance, the weight training I do is for general health.

tim_wand

Off topic. but saw you were on line "MadasaHattersly" Did I read else where you met Bob Parlee today?