Diet help need advice

mosa

I'm returning to the Tarmac (I know wrong time of year) anyway after what I would say is a while. To reduce my weight my diet is as follows. Protein shake for breakfast w-watchers soup for lunch. Protein shake in afternoon & ww meal for tea. I do have the odd bits of fruit etc and nibbles of other stuff but I'm trying to be good. Past history I lost 2 stone last year on ww and kept it off and felt great whilst out on bike...

My questions are what carbs or other items can a safely put into my diet that won't make me gain pounds but will benefit me whilst out riding at weekends. Typically frid afternoon & Sundays. Aprox 30 miles each session. I'm also doing gym work & turbo at times.

Just feel when I'm out that I struggle. I realise a lot of that is fitness but I know I'm not fuelling correctly to set my up prior to the rides or whilst out on the bike.

I'm currently just drinking say 750ml of water whilst riding. I would appreciate some dietary tips & riding fuelling / hydration tips & types you would recommend. I'm using the protien shakes to fill me up as well as normal reasons.

diamonddog

IME for 30 mile rides you don't need to carb up TBH, substitute the morning shake for a couple of toast and jam or a bit of porridge if you think it might help with the energy levels but none of them will be particularly good for your diet, otherwise stick with what you are doing.:)

I went out on Sunday and did over 30 miles and I had not eaten for 5 or 6 hours prior to it, but everyone is different and I am used to this regime. Just keep getting out and riding as often as possible and on the days you can't use the turbo or rollers if you have them, I have found them invaluable for gaining and keeping fitness levels at this time of year.

dnwhite88

You want to get your carbs from whole grains, like brown bread, pasta and rice. Everybody is different but I drink a 500ml bottle per hour year round, more like 750ml per hour for the few months it's really hot. It is also important that you are hydrated before you set off.

Anything over 40 miles I will bring food along with me, but I avoid gels where possible and try and eat real food like bananas and dates or flapjack mid ride for energy.

mosa

I'm not obsessed with them. At the time I was at my lowest weight, riding my most miles it was a routine I used so I'm s believe in that if it worked the last time it will now. I use them more now as meal replacement or to fill me up until I lose another 8lbs say. You can see from my ww diet there is no protein.

buckles

Eat proper food, simple as.

poynedexter

if you have body fat to lose, you need to stop storing it and start to burn off the largest source of energy in your body.

why do you store fat? insulin is the major reason from what i have read. SUGAR drives the FAT storing process. dietary fat isnt making you fat. eat much less sugar (processed food inc your "shake"), eat butter, eggs, full fat milk, saturated fatty meats, lots of omega 3 rich fish, as much fresh veg as you can (but only a little starchy potatoes), nuts, some fruit.

i have been losing weight eating this type of REAL food and the fat and protein give me loads of energy and cut the hunger pangs right down.

ps i'm now a firm believer that heart disease and saturated fats arent as closely related as we've been led to believe

mosa

Buckles wrote:

Eat proper food, simple as.

Thanks for your educated answer! The joy of forums

poynedexter

mosa wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Eat proper food, simple as.

Thanks for your educated answer! The joy of forums

protein shakes, ww meals and nibbly things aren't REAL tho. not for any med to long term plan proper food is.

mosa

It's short plan as one of my replies states. When you say proper good that's what my initial post was really asking for. Meals that would support my cycling but not to increase my weight where possible

poynedexter

if you are doing 30 miles, i'm guessing its taking from 1.5 to 2 hrs?

i would eat normally with no extra eating before your ride. if you have a light lunch, eg tuna salad (plenty of it tho) and ride an hr later, you will need no food on the ride. just water or diluted low sugar juice. with a gap of + 2hrs, take 1 banana with you and plan to return with it. if you REALLY need it, its there. exercise will change the insulin response from the fruit sugar and you wont store fat.

when you return, have a glass of milk, and continue as normal. it'll be tea time shortly anyway, you won't go into starvation mode for a few days, and hormones in your body will keep your blood sugar level up for a while yet.

poynedexter

i think not. how much extra fueling do you need to do 30 miles, whilst trying not to store extra body fat?

jaxf

Mosa, roughly how old are you, how tall are you and how much do you weigh? What do you want to be able to do / how much body fat are you happy with?
I have assumed that you are a man (I don't know any women who drink protein shakes)

everyone is different, for example, men tend to need to drink more than women - apparently you sweat more than we do.
the more you weigh, the more fuel you will need, as the more you will consume on a ride. I weigh 53kg, and am 5 foot 2 inches, so probably need less than you.
But, I am also muscly as hell, so I burn more than you would expect.

I am really greedy, so hate the feeling of being empty, and my sports are endurance based, so there is no way I will allow myself to do whatever the ski mountaineering equivalent of bonking is - too dangerous.

So, my aim is always to feel full, feel good and be able to do my sports the way I want.

I don't really drink at all when cycling, unless its near 30 degrees. But I do drink a couple of hours before I start. I reckon if you wait till you're thirsty, its too late. When I am doing more than 80 miles (and they are always on mountains) I try to make myself drink at least 500ml. How early are you making sure you have enough fluid on board? Do you klnow how much salt and sugar all those 'sports' drinks contain? Sometimes more calories than people burn during their ride. I like water. My husband makes me have a weak electrolyte drink if its a big day - about a quarter strength. hate it.

I prefer whole / 'real' foods. I can better see what I am eating and if its what I intended. A lot of processed food contains a lot of salt and sugar to make it palatable when its designed to be stored for a lot longer than 'real' food.

You specifically asked for suggestions about the sorts of meals and snacks you might like for cycling, whilst maintaining/reducing weight:

I find a brilliant meal for the night before a big ride is chicken legs roasted on chilli, sweet potatos and canellini beans with roasted haricot beans and asparagus - cos I am a crap cook and I can't be bothered to wash up. One roasting tin, 2 door openings of the oven. and no sugar except in its natural state.
Because I'm greedy (and I am REALLLLY greedy), I always have toast and marmalade, banana, yoghurt, grapefruit juice and coffee for breakfast. That is more than enough for a 50 mile ride, so should be fine for 30 miles for you.

I don't like to eat when I'm cycling, although I know a lot of people do. (I will eat lunch if I'm out all day, but really don't like stopping for snacks), but the ones I see people eating that look reasonable to me are bananas, dried apricots (but my god, the fat and sugar ON dried fruit ......) and almonds.

Almonds and bananas make great snacks too. And have you tried miso soup? fills you up, almost no prep or washing up.

Did I mention the box of chocolates every night? everyone needs a treat .........

buckles

mosa wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Eat proper food, simple as.

Thanks for your educated answer! The joy of forums

Well, it works for me. Just thought you might want to try it instead of eating a load of processed boll0cks that lacks vitamins, minerals and other important nutrients. Good luck.

bahzob

Buckles wrote:

mosa wrote:

Buckles wrote:

Eat proper food, simple as.

Thanks for your educated answer! The joy of forums

Well, it works for me. Just thought you might want to try it instead of eating a load of processed boll0cks that lacks vitamins, minerals and other important nutrients. Good luck.

Seconded.

Probably the best dietary advice that anyone can follow is

JUST EAT REAL FOOD.

This applies not only to cyclists but the population as a whole.

If you only eat food that is prepared from raw ingredients in your own kitchen then:
- You will be healthier (including weighing less but more than that)
- You will save money.

Trade-off is that this involves a modicum of brain/will power and a bit more time and effort. However solution to this is spending less time on the couch watching people cooking on TV and instead go into your kitchen and do it yourself.

bahzob

madasahattersley wrote:

Because the single most important thing in sports nutrition is consuming sufficient calories. On a bike that can be as much as 1g of carbohydrate per kg of bodyweight per hour, and you're suggesting 'low sugar juice,' only eating your banana if you really need to, and not eating enough to allow for proper recovery when you get back.

Very very very high risk of burnout, poor performance on the bike, serious fatigue and muscle wasting if you do that.

Sorry but the single most important thing in sports nutrition is not consuming "sufficient" calories.

That's the misunderstanding that leads to people taking up exercise and being surprised when they put on weight because they eat huge amounts of junk before during and after workouts due to paranoia about bonking.

Like most everything in training nutrition should be goal directed and specific.

If your objective includes weight management then the most important thing in sports nutrition is maintaining a balanced diet over time that includes a small calorie deficit.

Eating during short rides (<2 hours) compromises this, since it means any calories you consume during it are calories you have to reduce from meals before/after. All this does is make dieting even more difficult than it already is.

Further, calories consumed during a ride like this have no benefit other than psychological. Unless following an extreme diet you will have enough glycogen to comfortably fuel this level of effort.

If you are following a sensible diet you only have to really worry about taking on carbohydrate during rides when they start to exceed 3-4 hours and they are being done at a hard pace.

diamonddog

bahzob wrote:

Sorry but the single most important thing in sports nutrition is not consuming "sufficient" calories.

That's the misunderstanding that leads to people taking up exercise and being surprised when they put on weight because they eat huge amounts of junk before during and after workouts due to paranoia about bonking.

Like most everything in training nutrition should be goal directed and specific.

If your objective includes weight management then the most important thing in sports nutrition is maintaining a balanced diet over time that includes a small calorie deficit.

Eating during short rides (<2 hours) compromises this, since it means any calories you consume during it are calories you have to reduce from meals before/after. All this does is make dieting even more difficult than it already is.

Further, calories consumed during a ride like this have no benefit other than psychological. Unless following an extreme diet you will have enough glycogen to comfortably fuel this level of effort.

If you are following a sensible diet you only have to really worry about taking on carbohydrate during rides when they start to exceed 3-4 hours and they are being done at a hard pace.

^^This

keef66

^ +2. Once you are reasonably bike fit, you should be able to manage up to 2 hours riding without carb loading or eating during the ride.

Luke's perspective is that of a younger racing cyclist, not somebody trying to shift a bit of excess weight.

gazrichards

If you are eating a moderately decent diet you have enough glycogen stored to last at least 90 mins.
I can comfortably ride 2.5hrs on just a bottle of nuun or high5 or whatever (I'm not particularly fussy about my energy drink and just use what is cheapest/free)

My best weight loss has been through a version of a paleo diet. The paleo diet is basically a fancy fad word for eating good food.
Whenever you eat something look at the ingredients, the less there are the better and if you don't know what something is (emulsifiers, fructose, etc etc) don't eat it.
Products are added to foods for the manufacturers convenience not our health.

A sample of my diet is this
Breakfast - espresso. Porridge oat pancake (mix porridge oats and water over night and fry) with honey and maybe a banana. Maybe a fruit salad instead.
I try and avoid dairy where possible. Try going a week without milk and even semi skimmed tastes increadibly sweet.

Lunch is my biggest meal of the day (I work afternoons and evenings)
Brown rice, chicken breast, vegetables.
Salad and fish
Pasta bolognaise.....basically a rounded and healthy meal.

Dinner
I'm usually back from work about 9pm so avoid a heavy carb loaded meal unless I have a training session early morning.
Just meat and salad or just a snack (fruit salad, carrot sticks and hummus etc)

To be healthy and keep weight off stay away from the weight watchers meals.
The most obvious thing to remember is this....
To lose weight you have to be prepared to go a little hungry and give up something that you like.
If you always snack and like ice cream and lager then forget about any real weight loss.

poynedexter

i agree with the above posts.

as an example of what i ate today:

6:15 am, 4 poached eggs on 1 slice of wholegrain toast with butter, a little cheese and a splash of hp. cuppa tea
10:15 am, an apple.
11:45 am, 53 mile bike ride at a decent effort. ate 1 banana, and a small handful of raisins. 2 botttles of sugar free diluted juice.
3 pm, bowl of homemade meusli with full fat milk and nat yogurt. 2 raw egg whites. coffee.

its hardly a feast and i was slightly hungry at about 30 miles so i ate the fruit.

next meal of as much veg as i can eat, chicken, coleslaw, mushrooms etc.... will be at about 7pm

out for about 40 miles at 7am in the morning on a coffee, with sausage bacon egg tomatoe to come home to for breakfast.

the key for me is more dietary fat and protein. WAY less sugar except the on bike fruit.

ianspeare

I don't get some of what I'm reading here... Fat doesn't make you fat??? Honestly? Are you serious? Look at what you just said. Sugars are great if they're from natural sources e.g. a smoothie. Lots of carbs, lots of sugar, as little ft as possible. Check out durian riders YouTube channel for lots of videos on this. I'm not fully vegan but pescatarian. I find this a good balance.

Expensive energy drinks? Sugar and a pinch of salt in your water bottle will keep you going.

Some quick & easy dietary changes I made;
Cows Milk out, almond milk in
Crisps out, nuts in
Chocolate out, fruit in

Oh and I do take whey protein. Why would I spend time eating protein when I can drink all the protein I need for recovery in 1 minute?

dw300

The secret of DurianRider's success is his attitude, not his diet. His videos are good for a laugh sometimes and just great for motivation at others .. this is his best video .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbQr-pE_KQU

The answer to the protein question is simple. There is only protein in a protein shake. If you buy a blend you can ingest 40g of protein (160kcals) that will slowly release over several hours. It may help your recovery to get the fast absorbing whey straight after training, where a meal misses the window where your body is sucking up nutrients fast.

You'd need to eat a large chicken breast on its own to get the same protein for a similar calorie intake .. you'd be talking 5 eggs to get that, or lots of beans, or a litre of milk .. so you can see, you're getting lots of other calories that you might not want while trying to hit your protein requirements.

Having said that, you don't typically need so much protein as a cyclist that you require extra from supplements. A powerlifter or body builder might. Also, you do have stores of protein. If you are not getting it in your diet, your body will break down muscle from an untrained part in order to repair a recently trained part. It just doesnt happen fast enough to benefit from the post training effect.

carrock

madasahattersley wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

if you are doing 30 miles, i'm guessing its taking from 1.5 to 2 hrs?

i would eat normally with no extra eating before your ride. if you have a light lunch, eg tuna salad (plenty of it tho) and ride an hr later, you will need no food on the ride. just water or diluted low sugar juice. with a gap of + 2hrs, take 1 banana with you and plan to return with it. if you REALLY need it, its there. exercise will change the insulin response from the fruit sugar and you wont store fat.

when you return, have a glass of milk, and continue as normal. it'll be tea time shortly anyway, you won't go into starvation mode for a few days, and hormones in your body will keep your blood sugar level up for a while yet.

What you're suggesting is beyond madness :shock:

Tosh. He is going on a 30 mile bike ride not climbing Everest

If he is riding at well below his anaerobic threshold he will be burning primarily body fat for fuel. Only at 80% MHR or more will significant glycogen be used and even then the body contains more than enough for a 30 mile.

Lots of fatties doing 20 miles between cake stops in the misguided belief that they need to carb up.

Utter rubbish.

If was doing an hours time trial then yes, a couple of jelly babies every 10 mins or so may be sensible.

nathancom

Why would you choose to drink protein shakes over real food? Cutting out empty calories has been the only change I have made so hardly any chocolate, biscuits etc. cycling and tasty healthy food does the rest. I have almost entirely stopped eating bread as well and this has made a big difference.

poynedexter

ianspeare wrote:

I don't get some of what I'm reading here... Fat doesn't make you fat??? Honestly? Are you serious? Look at what you just said. Sugars are great if they're from natural sources e.g. a smoothie. Lots of carbs, lots of sugar, as little ft as possible. Check out durian riders YouTube channel for lots of videos on this. I'm not fully vegan but pescatarian. I find this a good balance.

Expensive energy drinks? Sugar and a pinch of salt in your water bottle will keep you going.

Some quick & easy dietary changes I made;
Cows Milk out, almond milk in
Crisps out, nuts in
Chocolate out, fruit in

Oh and I do take whey protein. Why would I spend time eating protein when I can drink all the protein I need for recovery in 1 minute?

if I may agree with you to some extent. natural sugar (fruit) is good, but for 2 reasons. its surrounded in fibre and the comes with nutrients attached. the smoothie is a poor substitute because it lacks fibre. if you want fruit, eat whole fruit.

what drives the body to store fat? the hormone insulin drives fatty acid storage. what stimulates insulin? blood sugar. what raises blood sugar? carbohydrate. its a METABOLIC reaction.

fat does not make you fat, because it does not stimulate insulin. fat will supress appetite along with protein because it takes longer to digest and stimulates other appetite hormones.

but we do need carbs, so we should eat low GI carbs.


but the point for the OP is that he wants to loose some body fat. a lean cyclist can get away with eating much more sugary carbs than one who wants to shift a few pounds.

poynedexter

madasahattersley wrote:

carrock wrote:

Lots of fatties doing 20 miles between cake stops in the misguided belief that they need to carb up.

Utter rubbish.

If was doing an hours time trial then yes, a couple of jelly babies every 10 mins or so may be sensible.

So you think it's OK to eat nothing before going out, eat nothing during the ride and then eat nothing when you get back, and expect not to have any side effects from starving your body? Think what you want I don't care.

people are saying we should eat normally. not starve, not carb up, normal, sensible. and if AS CYCLISTS we need to fuel our rides and keep body fat down, if we feel the need.

poynedexter

nathancom wrote:

Why would you choose to drink protein shakes over real food? Cutting out empty calories has been the only change I have made so hardly any chocolate, biscuits etc. cycling and tasty healthy food does the rest. I have almost entirely stopped eating bread as well and this has made a big difference.

you have reduced your blood insulin levels by reducing sugar in your diet, thus stopped fat storage. its not about calories. well done.

nathancom

Eh, it is about calories but eating nutrition low, calorie dense food, such as white bread enables you to eat a lot of calories very fast. The twinky diet shows that calories in/out is very much the main driver of your weight.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/

poynedexter

yes he ate 1800 cals per day, instead of the 2600 norm. who wants to do that? sounds awful. a 800 cal deficit is gonna cause weight loss, that's for sure. what would have happened on 2600 per day? ie normal calintake

I have no doubt my higher fat diet is allowing me to eat plenty of cals overall like before, but its the low sugar content which is shifting the fat.

good debate btw!!!

fyi, weight loss so far is 7lbs in 8weeks, new target 10lbs.

carrock

madasahattersley wrote:

carrock wrote:

Lots of fatties doing 20 miles between cake stops in the misguided belief that they need to carb up.

Utter rubbish.

If was doing an hours time trial then yes, a couple of jelly babies every 10 mins or so may be sensible.

So you think it's OK to eat nothing before going out, eat nothing during the ride and then eat nothing when you get back, and expect not to have any side effects from starving your body? Think what you want I don't care.

Didn't say that. What I am saying is , assuming one is taking in a normal amount of food, there is no need to take on ADDITIONAl calories for what is basically a moderate fat burning trundle.

There is a myth peddled largely by companies who manufacture sports bars, gels and sports drinks, that one should gorge 100s of calories worth of calories before the most gentle of activities.

Probably why there are so many fat cyclists.

Unless I am doing a sportive, I take a cereal bar and a bottle of juice, and if I stop for a cup of tea and bit of cake, I don't eat the cereal bar........

Going for a gentle ride and not eating isn't starving your body. It's called fat burning.

ianspeare

I guess I see where you're coming from. What fuels our cars? HydroCarbons, so it makes sense that CarboHydrates should act as our fuel. The more you excercise the more carbs you will need. Regular excercise also changes your metabolic system, so you will need more carbs

I'm blessed with being an ectomorph- 5ft 10, weighing just 64kgs. I've always found it hard to gain weight (fast metabolism) and bulk up but now I've accepted the fact that this won't happen, and hence cycling is the ideal sport for me!

This comes back full circle to what the OP was saying- the weight has come off & now he wants to introduce some carbs back into his diet. I suppose rice and things like sweet potato would be the best things to introduce. And right on eating natural food sources rather than man made things.

I guess the thing isnthere isn't a one size fits all when it comes to dieting. Everyone's bodily needs and ethics are different.

poynedexter

i watched a youtube video about "diet" recently and one remark about calories stuck out for me.

since 1 lb of body fat represents about 3600 cals, and since i was 11st 7lbs for about 15 years at least (age 27 - 42), that means i had to, ON AVERAGE, consume the same number of calories as i was burning for that period of time. i wasnt any more musclular over that time and i kinda had the same level of activity.

now what are the chances of that happening, eating the number of calories to such a tolerance? and not losing or gaining weight.

so it kinda helps me get my head around the idea that fat gain/ loss isnt solely about calories in vs calories out. its very much influenced by genetics and hormones.