There are no significant facts about human beings

meursault

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2013/10/there-are-no-significant-facts-about-human-beings/

I am (and always have been) confused. Not to worry, this seems the natural order of things. As well as general discussion about the text, I have a question you may be able to help me with:

I love the Eastern, Buddhist philosophies. Let's say they are correct for the sake of argument, whatever 'correct' means. Our suffering is linked to attachment and all reality is the eternal void. Would my path of study towards this enlightenment be cold and inhuman?

ballysmate

:?: :?

sungod

no

Mikey23

Is that the philosophical perspective known as nihilism?

Not summat I would subscribe to as i find it rather bleak and empty. I think a couple of vodkas and a bit of research is required before a response...

daviesee

Probably more like a couple of minutes research and a bottle of vodka.

Mikey23

Ok, read the article again and the responses. I'm not entirely sure whether the author has anything meaningful to say or is having a laugh. Either way, this is light years away from my own view of the world so I don't intend to waste any more of my time on it

@ms.. I'm afraid I don't have anything constructive to say here either... Thanks for sharing

team47b

There is a danger of falling into the reductionist camp via subjectivism as in quantum mechanics.

You are a part of a whole you cannot be the observer and the observed so you cannot take a path to enlightenment as this would be selective.

You can only achieve oneness, when you stop thinking of 'human' as a separate part.

The journey via cake stop is a metaphorical step in the right direction

(The real T47b is back!)

meursault

team47b wrote:

There is a danger of falling into the reductionist camp via subjectivism as in quantum mechanics.

You are a part of a whole you cannot be the observer and the observed so you cannot take a path to enlightenment as this would be selective.

You can only achieve oneness, when you stop thinking of 'human' as a separate part.

The journey via cake stop is a metaphorical step in the right direction

(The real T47b is back!)

Are you saying, according to quantum theory you can't be the observer and the observed? If not, why can't I look at myself? How does this prevent me from selecting a path?

meursault

Mikey23 wrote:

Ok, read the article again and the responses. I'm not entirely sure whether the author has anything meaningful to say or is having a laugh. Either way, this is light years away from my own view of the world so I don't intend to waste any more of my time on it

@ms.. I'm afraid I don't have anything constructive to say here either... Thanks for sharing

I find it interesting in a bigger picture kind of way. If there is nothing significant about humans, what is the point in anything?

team47b

meursault wrote:

team47b wrote:

There is a danger of falling into the reductionist camp via subjectivism as in quantum mechanics.

You are a part of a whole you cannot be the observer and the observed so you cannot take a path to enlightenment as this would be selective.

You can only achieve oneness, when you stop thinking of 'human' as a separate part.

The journey via cake stop is a metaphorical step in the right direction

(The real T47b is back!)

Are you saying, according to quantum theory you can't be the observer and the observed? If not, why can't I look at myself? How does this prevent me from selecting a path?

I just meant that enlightenment is the path, it's not at the end of a particular path, as in Tao, the way. You cant look for a 'place' you are already in.

ballysmate

team47b wrote:

meursault wrote:

team47b wrote:

There is a danger of falling into the reductionist camp via subjectivism as in quantum mechanics.

You are a part of a whole you cannot be the observer and the observed so you cannot take a path to enlightenment as this would be selective.

You can only achieve oneness, when you stop thinking of 'human' as a separate part.

The journey via cake stop is a metaphorical step in the right direction

(The real T47b is back!)

Are you saying, according to quantum theory you can't be the observer and the observed? If not, why can't I look at myself? How does this prevent me from selecting a path?

I just meant that enlightenment is the path, it's not at the end of a particular path, as in Tao, the way. You cant look for a 'place' you are already in.

Way out. man! Way out.

meursault

team47b wrote:

meursault wrote:

team47b wrote:

There is a danger of falling into the reductionist camp via subjectivism as in quantum mechanics.

You are a part of a whole you cannot be the observer and the observed so you cannot take a path to enlightenment as this would be selective.

You can only achieve oneness, when you stop thinking of 'human' as a separate part.

The journey via cake stop is a metaphorical step in the right direction

(The real T47b is back!)

Are you saying, according to quantum theory you can't be the observer and the observed? If not, why can't I look at myself? How does this prevent me from selecting a path?

I just meant that enlightenment is the path, it's not at the end of a particular path, as in Tao, the way. You cant look for a 'place' you are already in.

I think I see, but don't quite agree. You are not born enlightened, it is a journey, a path.

Mikey23

@t47b... I bet you copied that ...

team47b

@mikey, no I didn't copy that out of a big book, it is my belief.

Did I at any time pi55 on your belief?

Can we get this in the 'it's all kicking off thread' if we try?

I think we could...

Mikey23

Ooh yes, unfortunately working today.... Should have put a smiley on my post btw!

Giraffoto

Either read the Book of Ecclesiastes or keep the bong and the PC in different rooms.

Mikey23

Indeed... Everything is meaningless under the sun

Mikey23

@t47b... Once again apologies. Was only being flippant. You might have pi$$ed on my beliefs! I know some do, but I take it all in good humour. Anyway, Ecclesiastes is the writings of an old man approaching death and reflecting that much of his life was not centred on God and therefore is purposeless and meaningless. Which pretty much reflects my own life!

BelgianBeerGeek

Hmm...reading the article, this looks like yet another tedious discourse on epistemology, aka the search for facts.
<strokes beard pensively>
Reminds of the ancient Greek bloke (can't remember his name) who was held to be something of a sage. When asked this sort of question he would have a ponder and conclude that he was merely a human being and it was simply too large a question for one person to tackle. So he wouldn't bother and call for another amphora of wine.

Anyway, this is the internet, since when have facts been important?

team47b

Mikey23 wrote:

@t47b... Once again apologies. Was only being flippant. You might have pi$$ed on my beliefs! I know some do, but I take it all in good humour.

no need to apologise, I am not offended, I was being flippant, pretending indignation, trying to wind you up so that we could start a 'it's all kicking off thread'

Maybe next time...

Mikey23

Yup, I realised that after I posted. I really am rubbish at stirring up a contentious debate... I just agree with everything everyone else says and apologise a lot. I need proper training!!!

meursault

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Hmm...reading the article, this looks like yet another tedious discourse on epistemology, aka the search for facts.
<strokes beard pensively>
Reminds of the ancient Greek bloke (can't remember his name) who was held to be something of a sage. When asked this sort of question he would have a ponder and conclude that he was merely a human being and it was simply too large a question for one person to tackle. So he wouldn't bother and call for another amphora of wine.

Anyway, this is the internet, since when have facts been important?

Yes, it's the internet, but I was referring to reality. Are you saying facts are not important on the internet and/or reality?

Also, yes, it's a big question, and I see nothing wrong in having a glass of wine, but I still like to contemplate such things.

freddiegrubb

Do something constructive & put the kettle on.

meursault

freddiegrubb wrote:

Do something constructive & put the kettle on.

OK will do, is it allright to contemplate while drinking my beverage? I am happy to join in changing society too, but I would like to know what we are changing it to first.

pinno

Why do we as humans construct questions that we cannot answer?

Why does our lives have to actually mean something? Is that not an extension of egotism? Surely, when we get to the 'end' and reflect, we should be contemplating whether or not we lead an existence based on our impact. Our positive influence on others perhaps or what one has achieved.
So instead of searching for meaning, maybe we should get on with living instead of a self important and constant contemplation of existence. Maybe that's the crux - if we are just existing, then life has no meaning or value. If we are so petrified at the prospect of death, we are not filling the void before the void.
In my worst hour, thinking I could be no more, my most frightening thought was "I can't die yet, I haven't really done anything".
Now, in my perpetual desire to achieve something, I am perpetually knackered.

PS I am a Buddhist, in case of accident - call a Lama.

Mikey23

Precisely because we are human and can ask the important questions even though we cannot fully answer them. Is it not possible to get on with living our lives to the full and still seek meaning?

Mikey23

@p... Are you a Buddhist or was that a joke?

pinno

Mikey23 wrote:

@p... Are you a Buddhist or was that a joke?

Yes, I seek the pure simple paths. My life relinquished of the burden of want. I no longer want a Colnago with a Campag 85th anniversary groupset with Easton wheels and a smart paint job, I need a Colnago with a Campag 85th anniversary groupset with...

Mikey23

Aah, I see... That kind of a Buddhist. Not quite ready to give up all your earthly possessions then

meursault

pinarello001 wrote:

Why does our lives have to actually mean something?

I agree with Mikey, because we can contemplate it.

pinarello001 wrote:

Is that not an extension of egotism? Surely, when we get to the 'end' and reflect, we should be contemplating whether or not we lead an existence based on our impact. Our positive influence on others perhaps or what one has achieved.

It maybe, but humans have ego's so we cannot ignore them, they are part of reality. I don't think you need to be at an end to reflect, I reflect all the time, mindfulness it's called, and the better you get at it the more real, reality is. I don't agree about impact, who decides that? Positive influence feels right to me, but I have no idea of it's validity.

pinarello001 wrote:

So instead of searching for meaning, maybe we should get on with living instead of a self important and constant contemplation of existence. Maybe that's the crux - if we are just existing, then life has no meaning or value.

Unless the meaning is existing. Viktor Frankl has some good stuff here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man's_Search_for_Meaning

Camus and the existentialists are good for death and suicide type things, and also, I have just finished this novel

http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Noise-Picador-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B0073HNM1M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381520827&sr=8-1&keywords=white+noise

Which has a treatise on the subject, highly recommended.

Contemplating these things, doesn't have to be so tiring, just think about them whenever.

Mikey23

The salvation of man is through love and in love (wiki quote) .. Yes, that would be my position. The fact that his belief system enabled him to survive the holocaust is interesting. He doesn't explicitly attribute this to spirituality although I suspect that is what happened. I tend to disagree with his rather black and white view of good and evil.. This doesn't sit with my faith position or personal experience

What has saddened and disturbed me for many years is that few are even prepared to consider the big questions of life and so never reach the point of an opinion or a decision...