2014 Gear

Paul 8v

Taken by my mate yesterday, no prizes for guessing who these belong to....

Paul 8v

And just in case you couldn't guess, this was a few weeks before...

One day I will actually bloody be there at the same time! I've met Dowsett before and he does come to some of our clubs TT's occasionally, nice guy.

frenchfighter

Haha, thats pretty cool for him to be in your area. When I first saw it though I thought it was an mtb it was so small and dirty!

frenchfighter

greasedscotsman

Paul 8v wrote:

Ah thanks greased, these would be perfect for L'eroica or something. I already have 5 pairs though so can't really justify any more!

Actually, I dug out my old pair and they aren't very good compared to M frames or Radar/locks. The lens is massive and the fit isn't that great, the arms just don't feel very secure at all. Might get some Razors instead...

Paul 8v

frenchfighter wrote:

Haha, thats pretty cool for him to be in your area. When I first saw it though I thought it was an mtb it was so small and dirty!

That's pretty much what mine looked like after today, only just finished cleaning it!

Paul 8v

greasedscotsman wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

Ah thanks greased, these would be perfect for L'eroica or something. I already have 5 pairs though so can't really justify any more!

Actually, I dug out my old pair and they aren't very good compared to M frames or Radar/locks. The lens is massive and the fit isn't that great, the arms just don't feel very secure at all. Might get some Razors instead...

I think it's more from an old school coolness aspect, a bit like riding an old steel frame with Super Record (Old style) looks lovely and has the romance but ultimately doesn't work as well as the modern gear.

cougie

Markwb79 wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Very nice, but I thought they were going out of business.

They did. The frame builder started Legend. Not sure if that's stopped or if someone else has got the name and re-started the business.

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]

Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

Any proof of that? Would love to see a picture or something?

edit - Sorry, that came across quite challenging, I actually like hearing these stories, but half the time I think they are myths. In the past that might have been the case, but I now think the power of marketing has stopped it. I work in an industry that has exactly the same problem. People think our players use other brands, just with our logo on them. Might have been years ago with other brands, but not anymore.

How would you make another bike look like a pinarello. I suspect the only advantage of the "wiggly" design is to set them apart. You'd not be able to pass another bike off.
in the days of steel it was common. Boardman would have his tt bikes made by Terry Dolan and sprayed in team colours.

Omar Little

Endura linking up with Drag2Zero for Movistar skinsuits and overshoes. Their gear is highly regarded by testers but i dont think theyve been involved with any pro teams before?

Paul 8v

cougie wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Very nice, but I thought they were going out of business.

They did. The frame builder started Legend. Not sure if that's stopped or if someone else has got the name and re-started the business.

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]

Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

Any proof of that? Would love to see a picture or something?

edit - Sorry, that came across quite challenging, I actually like hearing these stories, but half the time I think they are myths. In the past that might have been the case, but I now think the power of marketing has stopped it. I work in an industry that has exactly the same problem. People think our players use other brands, just with our logo on them. Might have been years ago with other brands, but not anymore.

How would you make another bike look like a pinarello. I suspect the only advantage of the "wiggly" design is to set them apart. You'd not be able to pass another bike off.
in the days of steel it was common. Boardman would have his tt bikes made by Terry Dolan and sprayed in team colours.

The wiggly idea is not new, check out the Diadrant forks on a Bates or the Curly stays on a Hetchins. This was also to set them apart from other framebuilders but supposedly had their advantages as well.

markwb79

Paul 8v wrote:

cougie wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Very nice, but I thought they were going out of business.

They did. The frame builder started Legend. Not sure if that's stopped or if someone else has got the name and re-started the business.

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]

Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

Any proof of that? Would love to see a picture or something?

edit - Sorry, that came across quite challenging, I actually like hearing these stories, but half the time I think they are myths. In the past that might have been the case, but I now think the power of marketing has stopped it. I work in an industry that has exactly the same problem. People think our players use other brands, just with our logo on them. Might have been years ago with other brands, but not anymore.

How would you make another bike look like a pinarello. I suspect the only advantage of the "wiggly" design is to set them apart. You'd not be able to pass another bike off.
in the days of steel it was common. Boardman would have his tt bikes made by Terry Dolan and sprayed in team colours.

The wiggly idea is not new, check out the Diadrant forks on a Bates or the Curly stays on a Hetchins. This was also to set them apart from other framebuilders but supposedly had their advantages as well.

Thats exactly my point, the frames are so distinctive I find it hard to believe frame builders are creating custom options that look identical to the rest of the team.

inseine

Markwb79 wrote:

Paul 8v wrote:

cougie wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Very nice, but I thought they were going out of business.

They did. The frame builder started Legend. Not sure if that's stopped or if someone else has got the name and re-started the business.

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]

Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

Any proof of that? Would love to see a picture or something?

edit - Sorry, that came across quite challenging, I actually like hearing these stories, but half the time I think they are myths. In the past that might have been the case, but I now think the power of marketing has stopped it. I work in an industry that has exactly the same problem. People think our players use other brands, just with our logo on them. Might have been years ago with other brands, but not anymore.

How would you make another bike look like a pinarello. I suspect the only advantage of the "wiggly" design is to set them apart. You'd not be able to pass another bike off.
in the days of steel it was common. Boardman would have his tt bikes made by Terry Dolan and sprayed in team colours.

The wiggly idea is not new, check out the Diadrant forks on a Bates or the Curly stays on a Hetchins. This was also to set them apart from other framebuilders but supposedly had their advantages as well.

Thats exactly my point, the frames are so distinctive I find it hard to believe frame builders are creating custom options that look identical to the rest of the team.

It could be that they do it with the blessing of (Pinarello for example) so that get to use the production moulds and just lay them up differently. From what I learnt most of the difference between two carbon products is in the choice of carbon/resin and the lay up rather than the actual shape.

greasedscotsman

inseine wrote:

It could be that they do it with the blessing of (Pinarello for example) so that get to use the production moulds and just lay them up differently. From what I learnt most of the difference between two carbon products is in the choice of carbon/resin and the lay up rather than the actual shape.

Don't think Pinarello make their own production frames, aren't they made in china somewhere. So is it that different if the manufacture is sub contracted out to someone else?

frenchfighter

salsiccia1

That pic almost, ALMOST, makes me want to rescind my black-only shorts rule.

Paul 8v

Salsiccia1 wrote:

That pic almost, ALMOST, makes me want to rescind my black-only shorts rule.

I will make an exception in this case!

frenchfighter

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/02/storc ... io-review/

rayjay

cougie wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

rayjay wrote:

Very nice, but I thought they were going out of business.

They did. The frame builder started Legend. Not sure if that's stopped or if someone else has got the name and re-started the business.

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]

Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

Any proof of that? Would love to see a picture or something?

edit - Sorry, that came across quite challenging, I actually like hearing these stories, but half the time I think they are myths. In the past that might have been the case, but I now think the power of marketing has stopped it. I work in an industry that has exactly the same problem. People think our players use other brands, just with our logo on them. Might have been years ago with other brands, but not anymore.

How would you make another bike look like a pinarello. I suspect the only advantage of the "wiggly" design is to set them apart. You'd not be able to pass another bike off.
in the days of steel it was common. Boardman would have his tt bikes made by Terry Dolan and sprayed in team colours.

I have a friend who rides a Pinarello copy from China. Its identical and the frame is actually a bit lighter than the real thing. He paid around £400 for the frame and forks. like I said you can not spot the difference. Identical. Wiggly forks and all.

I'm sure it would not be a issue.

disgruntledgoat

Don't pros normally go with a look-alike because it's better than their current frame though, not because they can't afford a frame with a guarantee and design costs to support?

rayjay

Pro riders like Tom Boonen get customised frames made to fit. Some riders get customised frames because they like the bike to feel a certain way. Less flex in certain area's etc.
Legend have made bikes for whole teams
As far as the general public are aware, the rider is riding the bike sponsor's bike.

Coach H

But hang on, Legend don't do monocoques only tube to tube and are clear that they dont have the capability to do monocoques. Therefore how would they possibly do something like a Pinarello? As the OEM's will likely actually own the moulds (the only expensive bit in the whole process), the chances of them giving them up seems unlikely. Even then the only difference will be in the lay ups and the OEM's can change this themselves quite easily.

Other frames (Boonen's Spesh?) could be made to look like the main OEM frames but there would be obvious differences, such as the BB in particular. The year Cadel rode an open mold TT frame (Planet X have it as one of their models) for Lotto it was spotted almost immediatelly IIRC.

There is no doubt that Marco Bertoletti USED to make bespoke frames for certain Pro's and even teams but as he has stated in numerous interviews that he did not want to do this anymore and that's why he started Legend.

So all in all the chance of riders being on non-OEM specials as they used to do in the past is inlikely, no?
Sounds like speculation based on old practices rayjay, unless you can provide any actual info to corroborate?

rayjay

In my search I chanced upon Legend, a relatively new Italian company (established in 2009) headed by Marco Bertoletti. Marco has more than 20 years experience hand-building frames, especially another famous Italian brand whose top Titanium-carbon frame the Legend Queen resembles. Apparently many of todays pros turn to Marco when they are unhappy with the supplied stock frame, and there have been instances when Marco has hand-built custom frames for entire Pro teams (always with the original sponsors name stickered on).

This article is from 2012.

Marcel Wurst reviewed a legend bike in pro cycling mag and again it was clearly mentioned that he makes Bikes for pro teams and you would not know they were not the sponsors bikes.


As for Pinarello's I don't know if it's true or not. I can only say that someone told me that some Moviestar riders from last year were riding legends. I don't know if that is true or not. The moulds are the most expensive part but there are tons of copys coming out of the far east of all makes, so maybe it is possible to get hold of cheaper moulds or are the copy's being made using the original moulds?

cheers

Crankbrother

Utter tosh ... I'm not even gonna justify why ... It just is ... FACT!

Coach H

rayjay wrote:

In my search I chanced upon Legend, a relatively new Italian company (established in 2009) headed by Marco Bertoletti. Marco has more than 20 years experience hand-building frames, especially another famous Italian brand whose top Titanium-carbon frame the Legend Queen resembles. Apparently many of todays pros turn to Marco when they are unhappy with the supplied stock frame, and there have been instances when Marco has hand-built custom frames for entire Pro teams (always with the original sponsors name stickered on).

This article is from 2012.

Yeah I read ProCycling as well, but there were quite a few more bikes made in 2011 that looked like tube to tube (ish). It is also commoon knowledge that Bertoletti was the custom sub-contractor for Viner, This is all old news and is not really relevent to the issue at hand.

rayjay wrote:

As for Pinarello's I don't know if it's true or not.

As is common with many posters, you really need to scan through your previous posts. The one that started this little debate read

rayjay wrote:

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]
Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

So you are making out you do know and they have been doing it for years! This even though Bertoletti set up Legend to get away from doing this kind of work (while we are quoting articles this was last stated in last months Cyclist but it has been in interviews before)

rayjay wrote:

I can only say that someone told me that some Moviestar riders from last year were riding legends.

Really? Maybe Legend could have done a passable version of the old Ultimate CF SLX but Movistar are on the new version and Aeroads. I bet even Phil & Paul could spot a tube to tube copy of one of those in the bunch.

[Edit] As a possible concession, it has always been a bit strange that the only pro's on Canyon's that have ridden Aeroads (Gilbert, Purito, Quintana) do seem to be the ones that should suit them least, ie. punchy climbers and mountain goats not Roulers. Particularly as most of the reviews have pegged them as not very good. Cannot see how Bertoletti's manufacturing techniques would be able to replicate the look of Aeroad's but this is certainly an anomoly [Edit]

I am not trying to pick a fight rayjay, but is seems to me you have taken a bit of knowledge and tried to morph it into facts that just dont work, IMHO

inseine

I've no idea whether any pros are riding non stock frames, but some are saying it can't be so because of the cost.
A frame mould will cost you around $10,000 if you need to non stock geometry, but they probably have prototype moulds available. The lay up is everything and I'm not sure they can easily vary this on the 'production line', as someone suggested. I can see how another company could create 'specials' with the same moulds.
This is how you develop the bike in the first place. Pinarello use a little company near to them for the protos, while production is in Asia.

frenchfighter

rayjay

Coach H wrote:

rayjay wrote:

In my search I chanced upon Legend, a relatively new Italian company (established in 2009) headed by Marco Bertoletti. Marco has more than 20 years experience hand-building frames, especially another famous Italian brand whose top Titanium-carbon frame the Legend Queen resembles. Apparently many of todays pros turn to Marco when they are unhappy with the supplied stock frame, and there have been instances when Marco has hand-built custom frames for entire Pro teams (always with the original sponsors name stickered on).

This article is from 2012.

Yeah I read ProCycling as well, but there were quite a few more bikes made in 2011 that looked like tube to tube (ish). It is also commoon knowledge that Bertoletti was the custom sub-contractor for Viner, This is all old news and is not really relevent to the issue at hand.

rayjay wrote:

As for Pinarello's I don't know if it's true or not.

As is common with many posters, you really need to scan through your previous posts. The one that started this little debate read

rayjay wrote:

A few Pinarello riders last year were actually riding Legends. [Don't blame them]
Legend have been doing that for years. http://www.legendfactory.it/eng/index.php

So you are making out you do know and they have been doing it for years! This even though Bertoletti set up Legend to get away from doing this kind of work (while we are quoting articles this was last stated in last months Cyclist but it has been in interviews before)

rayjay wrote:

I can only say that someone told me that some Moviestar riders from last year were riding legends.

Really? Maybe Legend could have done a passable version of the old Ultimate CF SLX but Movistar are on the new version and Aeroads. I bet even Phil & Paul could spot a tube to tube copy of one of those in the bunch.

[Edit] As a possible concession, it has always been a bit strange that the only pro's on Canyon's that have ridden Aeroads (Gilbert, Purito, Quintana) do seem to be the ones that should suit them least, ie. punchy climbers and mountain goats not Roulers. Particularly as most of the reviews have pegged them as not very good. Cannot see how Bertoletti's manufacturing techniques would be able to replicate the look of Aeroad's but this is certainly an anomoly [Edit]

I am not trying to pick a fight rayjay, but is seems to me you have taken a bit of knowledge and tried to morph it into facts that just dont work, IMHO

.Teams have been riding bikes made by Marco , who makes Legend bikes . . it has clearly been stated in articles
that he has made bikes for pro riders and whole teams . Fact.

2nd. I was told and I had no reason to think they were lying as they work in the industry is that some Moviestar riders were not riding Pinarello's but they were in fact bikes made by Marco/legend. I took this to be true as the person who told me this imports bikes for a living has a lot of connections with manufacturers etc . I just passed on what info I knew and I thought relevant.

That's it. simple move on

rayjay

Crankbrother wrote:

Utter tosh ... I'm not even gonna justify why ... It just is ... FACT!

tell me what is tosh?

mike6

frenchfighter wrote:

Why any woman would not want to take up cycling after seeing that picture is a thought worth considering. But...white shorts? Not for me, ever. Look good on her though. Just wish I had half of her talent. :shock:

Richmond Racer

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