Vuelta Stage 20 *Spoiler*
Comments
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calvjones wrote:Frankly I find Roche's improvement more surprising.
He's gone clung on for 5th and lost time at the pointy end. I don't see anything especially worrying about his vuelta.
If the tweets are true he got 5th by the same amount of time as gained on the echelon stage.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:calvjones wrote:Frankly I find Roche's improvement more surprising.
He's gone clung on for 5th and lost time at the pointy end. I don't see anything especially worrying about his vuelta.
If the tweets are true he got 5th by the same amount of time as gained on the echelon stage.
He's more usually clinging on to 12th, but I bow to your sunny optimism
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Strava is not Zen.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:The joyful high of Ellisonde's win
The depressing low of Horner
Sums it up for me
yep ( but I dont thin Horners on illegals) ...just a career of 'building up' then finding 'something' (?) that works
Elissonde's ride was incredible. I tried to think on all those 23 % corners how he might have just thought I have to get off0 -
I dont know if Pinots effort have gone noticed today ( I haven't read the whole thread ) I know he is very tired. He's 23 and gone up the GC today after a couple of hanging in there days. He must have been red lining from the start of the final climb and takes 10th place. His team (23 year old) mate takes the queen stage (incredible!) and his other team mate Geniez (25) takes another incredible win. The spirit of this team is what I think sport is about - congratulations to them (but not in Le Tour ( :?:
) Just dont say he's the next \Hinault
Then there's Horner 0 -
^^^ good call on Pinot and the FDJ team.0
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I have huge doubts about this win. Its a three week GT and a 42 year old, who is classed as an all rounder, kicks the a***s of some of cycling's best climbers, not once but over and over again. In a mountain heavy Giro.
They say, ah well the rest are tired, Horner is fresh. Its a three week Tour, it is murder for all the riders, surely, and a 42 year old would not recover as quickly as much younger adversaries.0 -
Recorded the highlights show to watch later. It will be interesting to see what Jens has to say about his teammate, though I expect the questions will be pretty tame.0
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I think Elissonde done great! He said his legs weren’t that good at the beginning, so it shows he can go beyond himself when needed – normally a sign of someone who’ll become bigger (which he could do with, in more senses than one).SpecialGuestStar wrote:
Elissonde's ride was incredible. I tried to think on all those 23 % corners how he might have just thought I have to get offRichmond Racer wrote:The joyful high of Ellisonde's win
He seemed totally recovered by the time of his interview, although not long after crossing the line, also a good sign.
In so crouched a posture, though, I wonder if he could do with a shorter stem or top tube – although he rode a bit crouched in Oman too (a bit like some riders from the 50s seem to have done, judging from old photos), and I would have expected they would have sorted stuff like that out (if necessary) when he was at Etupes in Alsace (the club at which one of the Yates is at the moment)
I also had a feeling his handlebars looked too wide (like Horner’s do - don’t tell me there’s a fashion coming!)
Well tried Nibali, nobody can say he didn’t give it his best shot. He's surely got to go up in everyone's estimation.0 -
Mikey, what you might be missing is all of Crank brothers blind hate for anything team sky have ever done. Believe me, if Horner was in a sky shirt he would have been foaming at the mouth (He spilt a metric f£%k-load of bile over his keyboard over Froome, also with no evidence!)Mikey23 wrote:@crankbrother... Fully agree mate. Quite amusing to think of the BR faithful spitting bile over their keyboards. No facts, no evidence, but hey let's all hate the guy anyway...
All this aside, that was a HELL of a stage. What a battle! Only bit that spoilt it for me were the tw@ts getting in the way, I know they do it on all tours but it just really irks me, they have no respect for the riders at all. Most are just looking to get their mugs on TV.
Nibs showed some awesome fight today but ultimately Horner was just toying with him. Such a great race this year.
On a side note, I'm looking forward to some more decent French riders, they seem to really be stepping up their game, I wonder how long it will be before we see a French GC winner? It's been a while...0 -
Paul 8v wrote:
Mikey, what you might be missing is all of Crank brothers blind hate for anything team sky have ever done. Believe me, if Horner was in a sky shirt he would have been foaming at the mouth (He spilt a metric f£%k-load of bile over his keyboard over Froome, also with no evidence!)Mikey23 wrote:@crankbrother... Fully agree mate. Quite amusing to think of the BR faithful spitting bile over their keyboards. No facts, no evidence, but hey let's all hate the guy anyway...
All this aside, that was a HELL of a stage. What a battle! Only bit that spoilt it for me were the tw@ts getting in the way, I know they do it on all tours but it just really irks me, they have no respect for the riders at all. Most are just looking to get their mugs on TV.
Nibs showed some awesome fight today but ultimately Horner was just toying with him. Such a great race this year.
On a side note, I'm looking forward to some more decent French riders, they seem to really be stepping up their game, I wonder how long it will be before we see a French GC winner? It's been a while...
One hell of a fib there P8v ... Never said anything other than Froome's rise is a bit too quick for a several year pro to be catagoricaly assumed a-ok ... especially as the assumption is largely based on his assumed nationality/team ... not saying he is dodgy, just the situation should encourage more scrutiny rather than blanket adulation ...
so there ... :P0 -
Crankbrother wrote:Best man won ... Regardless of the petty spite shown by the Bikeradar faithful ...
Fresh man beat a bunch of guys who had always been 2nd tier GT riders (until Nibs stepped up) in the past 5 years and had been racing all year ...
Horner allowed to ride for himself in a GT and showed just what the last 2 TdF winners have shown ... ordinary riders win races when the competition fails to step up ...
Good last 20 mins of TV ...
:shock: That's the first sensible post I've seen from you. I have to admit to raising an eyebrow more than once at Horner and even though there is a bit of suspicion against him over the years he has to be given the same innocent until proven guilty (or at least until strong circumstantial evidence) as I give others. As I said after his first stage win the worry for me is that if he is doping and getting away with it I have to re-think my hope that things are cleaning up.0 -
Pross wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Best man won ... Regardless of the petty spite shown by the Bikeradar faithful ...
Fresh man beat a bunch of guys who had always been 2nd tier GT riders (until Nibs stepped up) in the past 5 years and had been racing all year ...
Horner allowed to ride for himself in a GT and showed just what the last 2 TdF winners have shown ... ordinary riders win races when the competition fails to step up ...
Good last 20 mins of TV ...
:shock: That's the first sensible post I've seen from you. I have to admit to raising an eyebrow more than once at Horner and even though there is a bit of suspicion against him over the years he has to be given the same innocent until proven guilty (or at least until strong circumstantial evidence) as I give others. As I said after his first stage win the worry for me is that if he is doping and getting away with it I have to re-think my hope that things are cleaning up.
I agree with both posts.0 -
Alan A wrote:Pross wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Best man won ... Regardless of the petty spite shown by the Bikeradar faithful ...
Fresh man beat a bunch of guys who had always been 2nd tier GT riders (until Nibs stepped up) in the past 5 years and had been racing all year ...
Horner allowed to ride for himself in a GT and showed just what the last 2 TdF winners have shown ... ordinary riders win races when the competition fails to step up ...
Good last 20 mins of TV ...
:shock: That's the first sensible post I've seen from you. I have to admit to raising an eyebrow more than once at Horner and even though there is a bit of suspicion against him over the years he has to be given the same innocent until proven guilty (or at least until strong circumstantial evidence) as I give others. As I said after his first stage win the worry for me is that if he is doping and getting away with it I have to re-think my hope that things are cleaning up.
I agree with both posts.
Me too. At the moment, Chris Horner is as clean as the winners of this year's Giro and Tour. So far, Horner seems to be guilty of doping in the Vuelta because he is riding well and has;
1. Handle bars that are very wide.
2. A wonky left leg with a turned-in toe position.
3. Is 41 years old.
4. His grimace when at full tilt looks like a smile.
Martinelli reckoned Nibali was poorly prepared for this race and it looks like he was correct. Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider and thankfully won't win this race. J-Rod is not at 100% either. Nico Roche is in 5th place. Of the others in the top five, only Roche is on top form. A fresh Chris Horner on top form wouldn't be that far away from beating the others on below par form. So it has turned out. Let's hope it is a clean victory.
DD.0 -
Alan A wrote:Pross wrote:Crankbrother wrote:Best man won ... Regardless of the petty spite shown by the Bikeradar faithful ...
Fresh man beat a bunch of guys who had always been 2nd tier GT riders (until Nibs stepped up) in the past 5 years and had been racing all year ...
Horner allowed to ride for himself in a GT and showed just what the last 2 TdF winners have shown ... ordinary riders win races when the competition fails to step up ...
Good last 20 mins of TV ...
:shock: That's the first sensible post I've seen from you. I have to admit to raising an eyebrow more than once at Horner and even though there is a bit of suspicion against him over the years he has to be given the same innocent until proven guilty (or at least until strong circumstantial evidence) as I give others. As I said after his first stage win the worry for me is that if he is doping and getting away with it I have to re-think my hope that things are cleaning up.
I agree with both posts.
Me too. At the moment, Chris Horner is as clean as the winners of this year's Giro and Tour. So far, Horner seems to be guilty of doping in the Vuelta because he is riding well and has;
1. Handle bars that are very wide.
2. A wonky left leg with a turned-in toe position.
3. Is 41 years old.
4. His grimace when at full tilt looks like a smile.
Martinelli reckoned Nibali was poorly prepared for this race and it looks like he was correct. Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider and thankfully won't win this race. J-Rod is not at 100% either. Nico Roche is in 5th place. Of the others in the top five, only Roche is on top form. A fresh Chris Horner on top form wouldn't be that far away from beating the others on below par form. So it has turned out. Let's hope it is a clean victory.
DD.0 -
Who said “Horner seems to be guilty of doping because he has;Dolan Driver wrote:
Me too. ... Horner seems to be guilty of doping in the Vuelta because he is riding well and has;Alan A wrote:
I agree with both posts.Pross wrote:
:shock: That's the first sensible post I've seen from you. I have to admit to raising an eyebrow more than once at HornerCrankbrother wrote:Best man won ... Regardless of the petty spite shown by the Bikeradar faithful ...
1. Handle bars that are very wide.
2. A wonky left leg with a turned-in toe position.
Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider and thankfully won't win this race.
1. Handle bars that are very wide.
2. A wonky left leg with a turned-in toe position”?
I don’t remember reading any such accusations.
Somebody gave a link to a website which suggested Horner might have iliotibial band syndrome. Maybe he did have and meantime has now resolved those problems to his advantage, albeit with a ‘turned-in toe position’.
And what basis is there for saying “Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider”?
He served his time and without any other evidence is now as clean as any other rider nowadays, and with very respectable results in tours since his ban.
In the days before his ban, Valverde did well in GTs. And even if one considers it was on an ‘artificial grass’ playing field then - he still had to compete against others taking the same slope ‘advantages’.
Nowadays, like today, his not being able to match the accelerations but plodding on to then later rejoin the Nibali/Horner group, and then eventually drop those who'd over-exerted themselves by initially keeping up with the accelerations (i.e. Rodriguez) shows to me he's a better GT rider than some of those whom several forum people would perhaps instead prefer to see win. And on short climbs he can be canny.
Relax!0 -
knedlicky wrote:And what basis is there for saying “Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider”?
He served his time and without any other evidence is now as clean as any other rider nowadays, and with very respectable results in tours since his ban.
In the days before his ban, Valverde did well in GTs. And even if one considers it was on an ‘artificial grass’ playing field then - he still had to compete against others taking the same slope ‘advantages’.
Nowadays, like today, his not being able to match the accelerations but plodding on to then later rejoin the Nibali/Horner group, and then eventually drop those who'd over-exerted themselves by initially keeping up with the accelerations (i.e. Rodriguez) shows to me he's a better GT rider than some of those whom several forum people would perhaps instead prefer to see win. And on short climbs he can be canny.
Relax!
Well said kned!0 -
@paulv ... Quite agree that was an epic stage. Nibs was busting a gut to get away ... I have much respect for him. Horner did that wiggins thing of not immediately following but winding him in and conserving energy. Right on with the crowds... They were a complete bunch of rissoles, most weren't even looking at the riders but posing alongside for the cameras. And in those conditions too. Summat has to be done before someone gets seriously hurt.
Other than that, Racing up 20% where I would have climbed off. Awesome tour and chapeau to them all0 -
No scientific support for this opinion, but I think it is the mental side (willingness to train and suffer in comparison with family time) that usually means riders retire at a much younger age.
Also, Horner didn't set the world on fire in GTs before, but his performances weren't that bad for a domestique. In the 7 GTs he has finished he has placed 33rd, 61st ,20th,14th, 36th, 9th and 13th. It is easy to imagine fresh legs and team leadership (i.e. actually trying) meaning a higher placing. Other GT winners have placed in the 100s mutiple times before finally winning.
Still, it is surprising.0 -
ThomThom wrote:Is The Clinic okay?
Edit: Just a had look; Brailsfod and Vaughters are already linked to the whole thing so everything is normal.
Can you tell us how? That'd be funny but I'm too scared to go in there...
I dunno about Horner, first things first I ve not watched anything of the race but I made a point that it was wrong to criticise Froome or Nibbles in the tour without any real evidence. Well there is none for Horner either. What's unfortunate is that there is a lorra lot of cirumstantial stuff surrounding him that does nt help matters much.
I'm not juming for joy for him but that said, I'm not going to join in the howls of anger about it until someone comes up with something concrete.
What I find more annoying is that compared to Froome in the Tour, Horner has had naff all scrutiny which seems to make a genuine improvement for the sport look even further away. Lets all just bash on the good team!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Vincenzo Nibali @VincenzoNibali 14h
Today I gave heart and soul to fight like a Lion! Sometimes you win sometimes you lose but it's more important to ride honorably to the end!0 -
The Clinic view is that everyone (except maybe Garmin) is doping; anything and everything can be used to support this; anyone who doesn't know this is a fool.0
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knedlicky wrote:
Who said “Horner seems to be guilty of doping because he has;Dolan Driver wrote:
Me too. ... Horner seems to be guilty of doping in the Vuelta because he is riding well and has;Alan A wrote:
I agree with both posts.Pross wrote:
:shock: That's the first sensible post I've seen from you. I have to admit to raising an eyebrow more than once at HornerCrankbrother wrote:Best man won ... Regardless of the petty spite shown by the Bikeradar faithful ...
1. Handle bars that are very wide.
2. A wonky left leg with a turned-in toe position.
Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider and thankfully won't win this race.
1. Handle bars that are very wide.
2. A wonky left leg with a turned-in toe position”?
I don’t remember reading any such accusations.
Somebody gave a link to a website which suggested Horner might have iliotibial band syndrome. Maybe he did have and meantime has now resolved those problems to his advantage, albeit with a ‘turned-in toe position’.
And what basis is there for saying “Valverde is not a legitimate GT rider”?
He served his time and without any other evidence is now as clean as any other rider nowadays, and with very respectable results in tours since his ban.
In the days before his ban, Valverde did well in GTs. And even if one considers it was on an ‘artificial grass’ playing field then - he still had to compete against others taking the same slope ‘advantages’.
Nowadays, like today, his not being able to match the accelerations but plodding on to then later rejoin the Nibali/Horner group, and then eventually drop those who'd over-exerted themselves by initially keeping up with the accelerations (i.e. Rodriguez) shows to me he's a better GT rider than some of those whom several forum people would perhaps instead prefer to see win. And on short climbs he can be canny.
Relax!
I don't think the 'evidence' comment was entirely serious. I read it as a tongue in cheek summary of how little evidence there is to support the doping claims and that basically people on here just don't like Horner because he looks a bit odd on a bike.0 -
What a heroic fight from Nibali, a brilliant 'final' stage. I think the Vuelta organisers have played a blinder this year.
Watching Elissonde descend is both exhilarating and very scary at the same time. He rides like he's in motoGP. FDJ showing what they can do when they aren't in France. Actually they've had a very good year with Vuelta and Demare results.0 -
I was just thinking that. Has anyone asked him about doping? I'm not sure that's the best way to go about things, but the difference with Froome is startling, even taking into account the differences between both events in media attention.ddraver wrote:What I find more annoying is that compared to Froome in the Tour, Horner has had naff all scrutiny which seems to make a genuine improvement for the sport look even further away.0 -
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Great race this year, great riding. Impressed with Konig, ( my rider of the tour choice)
will be hard for Netapp to retain him.
FF some of your usual crap posted.
As much as I don't like Horner he rode well and you have a very short memory about dopers, remember you hero is a convicted doper!!
As for riding out of saddle with lactic, there is huge difference between riding out of saddle in big or small gear, he was hardly pulling up on the bars , just resting on them, which means he should be able to ride couple of km out of saddle in such a gear compared to couple of hundred metres in larger gear.
As for Horner having faster acceleration than Nibs? Really? I reckon NIbs much more explosive as you could see when Nibs attacked.
Although it made great viewing watching Nibs attack, which is in his nature, it was the wrong thing to do, he should have just tried to stay on Horners wheel until last 500m of the climb, especially with easy run in, I think he was gambling on Horner cracking but after several huge digs, it was inevitable it was going to rip his legs to pieces which proved to be the case.0 -
According to the fount of all knowledge, the demigod that is Carlton Kirkby, he has been subject to the normal scrutiny including one early morning test. I think this is routine for leaders and a random selection of the others. I'm sure details will become available
And the French riders have had a fair number of stage wins. Which quite obviously is evidence of systemic doping...
And then there was kiri and his breakaway win... Looked a bit old and smiled a lot, so deep suspicion there0 -
First of all it was the Vuelta and not the Giro :-)mike6 wrote:I have huge doubts about this win. Its a three week GT and a 42 year old, who is classed as an all rounder, kicks the a***s of some of cycling's best climbers, not once but over and over again. In a mountain heavy Giro.
They say, ah well the rest are tired, Horner is fresh. Its a three week Tour, it is murder for all the riders, surely, and a 42 year old would not recover as quickly as much younger adversaries.
Horner an all rounder? are you serious, he is tiny and a pure climber and I would hardly describe the Vuelta riders as worlds top climbers, Froome, Contador and even Wiggo are far better than those lot and some other pure climbers not there either so hardly the best climbers to beat.
As for being 42, is there any difference between him and Voight/ yet everyone on here aarse licks him.
At 42 his endurance will still be the same, if not better than when he was 35, it is fast twitch and explosiveness you loose with age, not endurance, look at marathon runners.0
