Wheels? handbuilt v shimano rs80 c24 v fulcrum racing 3

superbug1980

thecycleclinic

thanks for a good reply thats definately given me food for thought! i havent condsidered the miche hubs until now as i dont know much about them. are these the miche hubs available?
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/miche-primato-p ... road-hubs/

i like hope as i used to use hope stuff on mtbs and always found it reliable. These will be my only wheels so durability is pretty high on the list of priorities, and for that reason i have decided to steer clear of the novatecs. The weight is attractive but ive read that the bearings need replacing after about 1000 miles. the xr-300's look good, pretty much similar to the archetypes but with a machined braking surface which is better as i have read that the archetype just wear off anyway.

agree about the spokes, not bothered with aero spokes at my speed they wont make any difference! im happy for whoever builds the wheels to advise me on the best spokes for the job.

Dont think my budget will stretch to the dura-ace 9000 so i guess from your options its archetype or xr-300 rims on miche primato or pro 3 hubs. i was hands down convinced of the pro 3's until you mentioned loss of stiffness and the lack of 11 speed (although i dont plan on upgrading my group anytime soon i suppose it would be nice to have the option).

would a 20/24h kinlin xr-300 on hope pro 3 with laser spokes be a good compromise between weight/durability/stiffeness?

cycleclinic

Yes those are the hubs but I buy mine from Miche so I get to have what ever drillings I specifiy. I have about 16 pairs of the 20H and 24H hubs in at present. These are the best all round hub for all weather I am aware of. Hope are good but they cost more which does not suit many.

Do not consider the loss of stiffness from a the hope hub as a serious comment it is a theoretical comment but the difference will be small and I would not consider it too important. I do not want to scare you!

the lightweight Novatec A291/F482 have the bearig issue but mine have been going for 3000 miles without issue.
Howver I wuld never suggest these hubs for someone only set of wheels. The cheper novatec A171/F172 do not have these issues but are not available in 2oH fronts but a 24H front and 24H rear is available and those hubs are 1) cheap (cheaper than miche) as light as Hope Pro'3 and durable (although I do think the miche hubs are better sealed but he novatec's are good enough. Win win in my book.

Kinlin XR-300 with hope pro'3 and lasers is not a build I have ever done. I know with Miche or (light weight novatec's) it works well as the rear flange spacing is wide. I cannot say hand on heart the same is true for hope's but I suspect it will be fine especially if Sapim Race spokes are used on the drive side rear, then it will be more than fine. This will add 18g over laser spokes on that side so the weight advantage of the hope hubs start to dimish.

Food for though is good no matter what you do. An informed purchase is always a good one.

Camcycle1974

For a thread that started out so unpromisingly we have had some decent info come up. Archetypes 28/32 is what I have gone for. 1500vs1800 is not worth worrying about. 300g is not going to make 1 iota of difference on a climb but the extra spokes may help to make the wheel more rigid and less likely to break/go out of true. I am a relative light weight but currently ride a pair of 36hole Mavic Pro's on 501 hubs on my old steel frame bike which have done me proud for nigh on 20 years. The Archetypes are for a new carbon bike I have purchased.

cycleclinic

The Op is quite light though so build with the kinlin's in 20F/24R is fine for him. 300g may not make a huge difference to your overall speed but the higher spokes count will. Lower spoke count wheels do feel easier and are easier to push throught the air. IT all depends on the type of riding you are aiming for really. Fast/racing or more social/club runs.

Camcycle1974

thecycleclinic wrote:

The Op is quite light though so build with the kinlin's in 20F/24R is fine for him. 300g may not make a huge difference to your overall speed but the higher spokes count will. Lower spoke count wheels do feel easier and are easier to push throught the air. IT all depends on the type of riding you are aiming for really. Fast/racing or more social/club runs.

Well, I don't race but do like to go fast. Perhaps I will treat myself to a pair of light weight, low spoke wheels one day. The Archetype whilst a good all rounder is not best suited to a low weight build, the rim being 100g more than a Kinlin 270. Had I have had time when I needed my new rear wheel I would have gone 20/24 on the Archetypes but 32 was all i could get at short notice. Doubt the 8 extra spokes will affect me too much!

bisoner

I wouldn't get RS80's - I'm around 70kg's and they just lost true too quickly and when a spoke went it took ages to get them repaired. I can't really say I noticed lots of flex but others have noticed it. As with factory wheels, spare parts are a mare to get hold of.

My brother had Fulcrum 3's. He's heavier than me. No truing issues. He did ping two spokes in two years and also destroyed the rear freehub.

Sister in law had some fancy Mavic SL's. She wore the rim out in less than two years. Consequently, her rear wheel is now rendered useless as the repair is uneconomical.

I got some handbuilt wheels - A23's on the light Novatec hubs. Used the wheels in the winter - big mistake. Hubs destroyed in no time at all. Original build was also poor - too much flex on 24/28 spoke build. Paolo (not original builder) did managed to sort them out for me, very good builder and nice guy to boot, but due to the gravelly feeling on the hubs I parted with them.

I'm now rolling with some Campag Zonda's. Easily the best wheels I've used so far. Smooth hubs (silent too), stiff but best of all they seem to float accross the tarmac. Easily the most comfortable set of wheels to ride on. Placebo maybe, but I am impressed. Of course, as with any set of wheels, I'm waiting for them to fail....... :roll: :roll:

Last of all, I have some 50mm x 25mm Carbon Clinchers. These look fantastic, are super light and ride well. However, for everyday wheels usable in all conditions, they just don't work. For the reasons above, I prefer my Zonda's the most.

ugo.santalucia

bisoner wrote:

I got some handbuilt wheels - A23's on the light Novatec hubs. Used the wheels in the winter - big mistake. Hubs destroyed in no time at all. Original build was also poor - too much flex on 24/28 spoke build. Paolo (not original builder) did managed to sort them out for me, very good builder and nice guy to boot, but due to the gravelly feeling on the hubs I parted with them.

Yes, I often go on about these 291/482 hubs... they are just not very durable at all... on the up side, I am now the unofficial Novatec repair and service center for London, as it appears...
Some bearings can be replaced with better quality ones, but the rear left, a 15x24 can only be bought as cheap... couldn't find an SKF in that size

cycleclinic

I have bought INA bearings for these light novatec's hubs both rears main shell and freehub body and the fronts too so next Paolo look for INA they are ust as good as SKF's. Do know where I have put them mind.... that's another story. Hardly anyone can actually service hubs properly so I am not surprised Paolo is doing alot of them. Still use them in the dry and they are O.K a bit limiting though for many.

The A23 is not a stiff rim. I have done 24F/28R combination before but I reserve those for light riders.

superbug1980

Camcycle1974 wrote:

For a thread that started out so unpromisingly we have had some decent info come up. Archetypes 28/32 is what I have gone for. 1500vs1800 is not worth worrying about. 300g is not going to make 1 iota of difference on a climb but the extra spokes may help to make the wheel more rigid and less likely to break/go out of true. I am a relative light weight but currently ride a pair of 36hole Mavic Pro's on 501 hubs on my old steel frame bike which have done me proud for nigh on 20 years. The Archetypes are for a new carbon bike I have purchased.

your right this surprisingly has turned out to be a very informative thread!

thecycleclinic wrote:

Yes those are the hubs but I buy mine from Miche so I get to have what ever drillings I specifiy. I have about 16 pairs of the 20H and 24H hubs in at present. These are the best all round hub for all weather I am aware of. Hope are good but they cost more which does not suit many.

Do not consider the loss of stiffness from a the hope hub as a serious comment it is a theoretical comment but the difference will be small and I would not consider it too important. I do not want to scare you!

the lightweight Novatec A291/F482 have the bearig issue but mine have been going for 3000 miles without issue.
Howver I wuld never suggest these hubs for someone only set of wheels. The cheper novatec A171/F172 do not have these issues but are not available in 2oH fronts but a 24H front and 24H rear is available and those hubs are 1) cheap (cheaper than miche) as light as Hope Pro'3 and durable (although I do think the miche hubs are better sealed but he novatec's are good enough. Win win in my book.

Kinlin XR-300 with hope pro'3 and lasers is not a build I have ever done. I know with Miche or (light weight novatec's) it works well as the rear flange spacing is wide. I cannot say hand on heart the same is true for hope's but I suspect it will be fine especially if Sapim Race spokes are used on the drive side rear, then it will be more than fine. This will add 18g over laser spokes on that side so the weight advantage of the hope hubs start to dimish.

Food for though is good no matter what you do. An informed purchase is always a good one.

Thanks for advice, choosing handbuilts is a minefield without some professional input! Not sure about the A171/F172 hubs, i see your logic and they are a sensible compromise but i dont like the way they look. i know its wheels and its shallow but i still take into account asthetics when choosing parts. i sold my classic mini (which i loved!) and i am using the money to upgrade my bike so id like whatever i buy to have a certain desirability when i look at it (and ride it of course) to ease the pain of loosing my beloved car! i love the look of the archetypes on the the hope pro 3's but i actually quite like the look of the primato's and the kinlin looks ok too (not sure about the writing on them though, do they come in plain black?). so i guess its getting the right balance of weight/stiffness/durability/cost between those two rims and two hubsets. Are there durability issues with the kinlin rims? have read a few threads that would suggest so? The money saving from not using the hopes would be useful (could put it towards a turbo trainer!) and also the lack of 11 speed option is a bit of a sticking point.

bisoner wrote:

I wouldn't get RS80's - I'm around 70kg's and they just lost true too quickly and when a spoke went it took ages to get them repaired. I can't really say I noticed lots of flex but others have noticed it. As with factory wheels, spare parts are a mare to get hold of.

My brother had Fulcrum 3's. He's heavier than me. No truing issues. He did ping two spokes in two years and also destroyed the rear freehub.

Sister in law had some fancy Mavic SL's. She wore the rim out in less than two years. Consequently, her rear wheel is now rendered useless as the repair is uneconomical.

I got some handbuilt wheels - A23's on the light Novatec hubs. Used the wheels in the winter - big mistake. Hubs destroyed in no time at all. Original build was also poor - too much flex on 24/28 spoke build. Paolo (not original builder) did managed to sort them out for me, very good builder and nice guy to boot, but due to the gravelly feeling on the hubs I parted with them.

I'm now rolling with some Campag Zonda's. Easily the best wheels I've used so far. Smooth hubs (silent too), stiff but best of all they seem to float accross the tarmac. Easily the most comfortable set of wheels to ride on. Placebo maybe, but I am impressed. Of course, as with any set of wheels, I'm waiting for them to fail....... :roll: :roll:

Last of all, I have some 50mm x 25mm Carbon Clinchers. These look fantastic, are super light and ride well. However, for everyday wheels usable in all conditions, they just don't work. For the reasons above, I prefer my Zonda's the most.

agreed about rs80's have ruled them out because of carbon lamination issues and difficulty in replacing parts. have ruled out the novatec light hubs also because of durabilty issues. as discussed earlier in the thread the campy zondas are the same as the fucrum 3's that your brother had some issues with. they look a really nice wheel but im not convinced with the spoke lacing on the back and would prefer cartridge bearings. if i was going factory built i would probably go with the zondas.

cycleclinic

There is a good reason why I use more miche hubs than Noavtec A171/F172's most poepl think they look better and that is very important. I do agree the Archetype on Miche Primato do look good but so does Archetype rims on Record hubs hmmmm I have a set of those just waiting for my exsisting rims to wear out.

g00se

Sorry to jump on the thread. Talking about 'good looking' wheels, does one particular colour of the Archetype rims suffer less from anodising wear on the braking surfaces?

ugo.santalucia

g00se wrote:

Sorry to jump on the thread. Talking about 'good looking' wheels, does one particular colour of the Archetype rims suffer less from anodising wear on the braking surfaces?

No... unless, well the silver ones don't discolour, obviously

binkybike

My personal experience is that the anodising lasts about 500 miles on the black achetypes, with new swisstop green pads fitted with the wheels.

Or 5 miles if you pick up a stone in one pad as soon as you go out.... The fine silver ring on the rear drive side became a "deliberate style choice"

superbug1980

does anyone know if the novatec 171/172 24h comes in anodised red? ive seen some other novatec hubs in this colour.

also ive seen the novatec A271SB/F372SB in 20/24h in red with shimano 11 speed. anyone know anything about these and if they are avilable in the uk?

cycleclinic

No there is only one Novatec distributor in that they stock some of the Novatec hubs and the ones above are not brought in, just the A291/F482 in black and the A171/F172 in silver or black. They also bring in the D711SB and 712SB plus a another cheaper MTB hub and a dynamo hub possibly. No red hubs and no shimano 11 speed. There is a very good reason why I have had to import the Miche hubs as there is nothing else I can lay my hands on in shimano 11 speed that does not cost a fortune and is not just 32H and 36H drillings (6800 hubs).

Some ebay sellers might have some and there is BDOP in Taiwan, you are likely though to have to buy from aboard so factor in VAT when it lands and the post office lovely £8 charge for handling the VAT for you. I have been stung by this a few times. I wouldn't so much if I had a choice about sorting it out myself but I don't.

superbug1980

i see, they are available from ebay for about £50, factor in the VAT and post office charge so £68 all in. they are light, 11 speed compatible and look ok. its a risk though as the durability and quality is unknown.

cycleclinic

I cannot comment on the durability on these hubs as I have never used them. They are also for paired spokes which makes calculating spoke lengths a right pain. It's not impossible but not many builders would want to do it.

ugo.santalucia

I have used those hubs, they are in all the same as the 171/172, just with paired holes and use the same parts and spares. You can calculate the length using some online calculators that allow to select the paired holes option. A couple of years ago I could get a set of 20/24 on Ebay for 30 quid so they were very appealing

cycleclinic

I think spocalc allow you to do paired spokes by putting odd crossing numbers. never done it mind really can't see the point.

iPete

I have Hope Pro 3 hubs on Open Pro rims and rs80. Both cost about the same.

The differences are marginal possible due to the different tyres. The handbuilds have Pro4 endurance tyres vs Pro3. The rs80 feel like they ride marginally quicker but there is not even 100g difference.

If I could only own 1 set, it would be the handbuilds all day.

superbug1980

probably best i avoid unusual spoke patterns or lengths as its one of the plus points of a handbuilt wheel that spares are easy to find and they are easily serviced.

im now leaning towards the miche or novatec on xr-300 rims rather than the hopes and h plus. can probably save £100 towards some winter tyres and a turbo trainer. no point having a bling set of wheels if the bike just sits in the garage and doesnt get ridden!

will have to call some wheelbuilders for some prices

charlie_potatoes

superbug1980 wrote:

will have to call some wheelbuilders for some prices

I can recommend getting a quote from thecycleclinic.

Malcolm built a pair for me earlier in the year, Miche 10/11 speed with DT Swiss 415 rims.
Great wheels and a pleasure to deal with.

ugo.santalucia

superbug1980 wrote:

probably best i avoid unusual spoke patterns or lengths as its one of the plus points of a handbuilt wheel that spares are easy to find and they are easily serviced.

im now leaning towards the miche or novatec on xr-300 rims rather than the hopes and h plus. can probably save £100 towards some winter tyres and a turbo trainer. no point having a bling set of wheels if the bike just sits in the garage and doesnt get ridden!

will have to call some wheelbuilders for some prices

The point of getting wheels for winter is not to get them cheap so you don't mind riding them, but rather get them suitable for wet use, so that you can ride them. Hope hubs are a good choice in that respect and so are Shimano hubs, if you service them. Rims wear at a similar rate, it's just a matter of how much wear they can take... some a lot, some none at all

robbo2011

I agree with Ugo, I have some cheap heavy wheels on my cyclocross commuter/winter bike because I am worried about rim wear and to be honest it is no fun riding at all. I guess its good at training up hills though, because everywhere is so much more of a slog. Motivation to go out on it is low, however.

Next time I would get some wheels that I actually enjoy riding on.

superbug1980

ugo.santalucia wrote:

superbug1980 wrote:

probably best i avoid unusual spoke patterns or lengths as its one of the plus points of a handbuilt wheel that spares are easy to find and they are easily serviced.

im now leaning towards the miche or novatec on xr-300 rims rather than the hopes and h plus. can probably save £100 towards some winter tyres and a turbo trainer. no point having a bling set of wheels if the bike just sits in the garage and doesnt get ridden!

will have to call some wheelbuilders for some prices

The point of getting wheels for winter is not to get them cheap so you don't mind riding them, but rather get them suitable for wet use, so that you can ride them. Hope hubs are a good choice in that respect and so are Shimano hubs, if you service them. Rims wear at a similar rate, it's just a matter of how much wear they can take... some a lot, some none at all

so what your saying is the miche/novatec hubs are not as good in bad conditions as the hope and the kinlin rims cant take as much wear as h plus. i understand that, you get what you pay for at the end of the day. So what i need to know is how much difference its going to make? As i mentioned before i have money from the sale of a car which i will probably not have again to spend on my bike for quite some time so the welds need to last as long as possible.

Can the bearings in the miche hubs be replaced with better quality ones when they wear? (such as the INA in hope).

How quickly do the kinlin rims wear in comparison to the h plus?

one of the reasons i went for the kinlin rims is to save some weight as the miche hubs are heavier. An advantage of the miche hubs is that they are 11 speed compatible, a sticking point for the hopes as they are not. i dont want to invest in a set of wheels which i cannot use on a newer bike if i were to somehow afford one as they are only 10 speed. On the other hand i dont want to invest in wheels if the rim is going to wear out quickly and the hubs wont last in all conditions.

its a complicated business this wheelbuilding!

ugo.santalucia

I didn't say that... mine was a general remark to answer your post, where you said that you preferred to spend less money so you could ride the wheels in the wet... my objection is that if you want to ride them in the wet, you might want them to be tailored to do that.
Neither Kinlin nor H plus Son are rims that I consider heavy duty

napoleond

Buy cheap buy twice...

cycleclinic

Buy cheap buy twice does not apply to miche hubs anyone who say that has never used them.

Hope hubs are very good so are miche but they are a little heavier not that you will notice as the extra weight is at the hubs. it is rim weight that people notice, tyre weight and to a lesser extent spoke weight. Hub weight has little bearing on how a wheel performs unless is a a really heavy steel sturmey archer hub but those appear of heavy bikes anyway.

Miche hubs last in winter, hope hubs do to. Rims weight of between 400-500g are normal. I use DT Swiss RR415's on my winter bike not everyone's choice I would agree but it works for me and I knew it would. The rims are not wearing especially quickly. A H plus son rim does not wear especially quickly either. Rims wear it is a fact of life. A Kinlin XR-300 does not fall apart the moment you start braking either but with all winter wheelsets soft pads are better than more abrasive pads . the number of Open Pro's I have seen wearing through in 5000 miles because of brake pad choice is not funny for the ow ners at least. I get to rebuilt the wheel so I do not mind. I find Aztec Road plus pads to be not too harsh on rims but Koolstop Salmon pads are well known for being a good soft pad but it may wear out quickly in the wet. Clarks pads are hard on rims.

Miche hubs will give ~7000 miles of bearing life for winter/wet riding that has been my experience anyway. Yes you can replace with INA or SKF bearing which are the best and you will get longer life. Hope's already have INA bearings but at nearly 2.5 times the price. That buys alot of bearings and I am not sure you will get 20000 miles from a set of hope bearings if you do a lot of winter/wet/salted road riding.

Comm on folks this chap is now getting really confused.

Miche hubs are 450g/pair Hop Pro 3's 376g/pair. A 20H/24H archetype build with Miche hubs and Sapim Laser Race spoke/brass nipples would weigh 1680g. Using hope hubs would save 74g and you will not notice.

The kinlin XR-300 is stiffer than the archetype so you can use thinner spokes comfortably for a rider as light as the OP Sapim Lasers for example and brass nipples.
Again weight would be with miche hubs 1633g and with hope Pro 3's 74g light not that you will notice the difference.
Hope's come in pretty anodised colours though and that is important.

Both these hubsets are the kind you can ride through floods and they won't care. I have taken my winter bike with Miche hubs for a swim last winter in a flood and had the hubs fully submerged serval times (it was a wet day) I have not touch them since and they are still fine. I ride no matter how foul the weather is (rule 5 and rule 9), so given I hate fettleing my own bikes (I like riding them also fixing my own bikes mean less time to fix other peoples) I use kit that require little fettling and is fit and forget. My hope hubs on my MTB are finally showing sign's of needing a bearing change. They have have seen a hard life though.

Spending more in view does not always mean a wheelset better suited to a rider's needs. The law of diminishing returns come into play. The high end hubs that I really like are Campagnolo record and Dura Ace. Hope's are good but you can put INA bearings in cheaper cartridge bearing hubs (miche or novatec including both freehub body bearings) for less and you end up with a similar product in terms of bearing durability.

patrickf

I'll chime in - I had a wheelset built by thecycleclinic recently.

Archetype rims with Miche Racing box hubs and laser/race spokes.

I simply told him what I wanted them for and that I wanted archetype rims. The rest came from his recommendations and I so far can't fault the wheels at all. Ok, I haven't taken them through rubbish weather yet and neither have they seen salty winter roads yet.

What I have noticed though was that even though these aren't the lightest wheels in the world and yes the miche hubs aren't light, they still spin really well. Combined with some nice tyres I'm amazed at how they handle compared to anything I've ridden before.

One advantage of heavier hubs is that they should be built better and last longer.

Personally I'd just call a wheel builder. Speak to them and take their advice onboard.

ugo.santalucia

patrickf wrote:

Combined with some nice tyres I'm amazed at how they handle compared to anything I've ridden before.

That's the rims we always go on about... they are great!