What price hand built, deep section carbon tubular wheels...

TheSmithers

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

That is something I have thought about, I should add the cost of carbon pads to the list too. I have yet to find out if its simply a matter of swapping out the pads (fairly quick) or if the pad holders will need realigning (pain in the ars*). I will certainly think when I change the wheels over, I won't do it for a single ride, more like for a week or more when I know the weather will be fine.

As I'm commuting more, the Rourke will tend to be used just at weekends, with the other bike being used during the week. Hopefully this will reduce the need for swapping the pads around (swap bikes instead).

The pads supplied to me by wheelsmith are inserts and fit into the existing pad holders. Wasn't much to it really. Braking wise, I don't know what all the fuss is about. Admittedly, I've not been out on my wheels in the wet. But in the dry, there's just as much bite and stopping power as the aluminium brake track on my old wheels.

I won't have the worry of switching wheels/brake pads over because now they're fitted, that bike will be for summer use only. Will be getting a CAAD 8 in the next month on the ride 2 work scheme for commuting and winter work!

slowandsteady

drlodge wrote:

Slowandsteady wrote:

You should have got black spokes. All the discerning cyclists do that. I'll post a pic of mine when they arrive.

I plan yellow swisstop pads as they can be used on Ali rims too. A quick check to see if they are clear of stray metal should be easier than changing pads.

Ooh I don't like black spokes, they might look better but the anodizing is no good for the strength.

I think at circa £1.25 a spoke I can run that risk.

markos1963

rickyrider wrote:

Another Q: I'm not a massive w weenie, but I'd be interested to know what the set weighs

I got a very similar build from Wheelsmith( a mix of Sapim Laser and Race on rear wheel might be the difference) and they came in at a smudge under 1500g which isn't too bad for the price I paid a few years ago.

drlodge

So...wheels collected, weighed and fitted, here's how she looks now



For weights:

Bare wheels, without tubs or skewers: F:620g R: 820g so that's a total of 1440g
With tubs and skewers (not cassette): F:928g R:1155g (2083g total)
Compared with clinchers: F:1085g R:1265g (2350g total)
So a weight saving of 267g, which is quite modest and certainly some of that will be at the hub where it matters not.

mfin

drlodge wrote:

So a weight saving of 267g, which is quite modest and certainly some of that will be at the hub where it matters not.

But also remember you'll be carrying a spare tub and a can of sealant, but maybe not an innertube that you would have when riding clinchers. 180-200 grams (ish) for a glued tub, and the sealant's weight negated by the inner tube not carried.

I'm a tub guy too, but I think the spares weight is one thing people seem to forget when comparing weights of tub and clincher variants of wheels. Still, it wouldn't matter if the net weight was the same, tubs still win unless you cycle in an area where tyres get shredded and punctures are commonplace.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

So...wheels collected, weighed and fitted, here's how she looks now



For weights:

Bare wheels, without tubs or skewers: F:620g R: 820g so that's a total of 1440g
With tubs and skewers (not cassette): F:928g R:1155g (2083g total)
Compared with clinchers: F:1085g R:1265g (2350g total)
So a weight saving of 267g, which is quite modest and certainly some of that will be at the hub where it matters not.

Nice, but you do need to cut that steerer...
If you think the difference between the heaviest wheel set you can buy for 70 pounds and the lightest you can buy for 1,000 pounds is only 1 Kg, then 267 grams are quite a lot of weight, as far as wheels go

markos1963

mfin wrote:

drlodge wrote:

So a weight saving of 267g, which is quite modest and certainly some of that will be at the hub where it matters not.

But also remember you'll be carrying a spare tub and a can of sealant, but maybe not an innertube that you would have when riding clinchers. 180-200 grams (ish) for a glued tub, and the sealant's weight negated by the inner tube not carried.

I'm a tub guy too, but I think the spares weight is one thing people seem to forget when comparing weights of tub and clincher variants of wheels. Still, it wouldn't matter if the net weight was the same, tubs still win unless you cycle in an area where tyres get shredded and punctures are commonplace.

No need to worry about the weight of spares being carried negating the weight saved on the wheels. That weight saved is rotating mass which if far more beneficial than overall weight.

mfin

markos1963 wrote:

No need to worry about the weight of spares being carried negating the weight saved on the wheels. That weight saved is rotating mass which if far more beneficial than overall weight.

Agreed. Still, it is a small point I thought I'd add.

Calpol

drlodge wrote:

So...wheels collected, weighed and fitted, here's how she looks now



For weights:

Bare wheels, without tubs or skewers: F:620g R: 820g so that's a total of 1440g
With tubs and skewers (not cassette): F:928g R:1155g (2083g total)
Compared with clinchers: F:1085g R:1265g (2350g total)
So a weight saving of 267g, which is quite modest and certainly some of that will be at the hub where it matters not.

They look great. Await your ride report with interest. Thanks for posting this experience.

drlodge

Agree with the points made about weight - there will be a bit less rotating weight at the rim where it counts most, but the reduction will be modest. The gains will come from the wheel build, stiffer, deeper sections so more aerodynamic and the ride from superior tubular tyres. Still, 250g+ weight saving is not to be sniffed at for the price...a £400 set of wheels like these that weigh under 1500g, its gotta be good value.

I bought an Arundel Tubi seat bag which is quite neat, the spare tub goes in it easily enough once all the air is out. I can also fit the CO2 regulator and cannister, but not the multi tool or money pouch. I need to see whether the pump will stay where it is, held in place at the side of the bag, or needs some velcro strapping to secure possibly underneath the bag somehow. Else that too will go in a jersey pocket. I don't intend to carry sealant as I've never had two punctures in all my life and if it should happen I'll call my girlfried or a taxi to pick me up. (may be I'll see what these cannisters are like just in case I should need one, I am a risk manager by profession after all!)

And yes Paolo, I do need to cut that steerer! There's 15mm above, I was told always to have a 5mm spacer on top so there's 10mm to remove. Have been looking for a 24tpi hacksaw/blade & plastic mitre to hold it square but then I keep thinking of the hassle to drop the forks. One day, may be end August when I have the week off (but then I'll be riding it...)

markos1963

drlodge wrote:

And yes Paolo, I do need to cut that steerer! There's 15mm above, I was told always to have a 5mm spacer on top so there's 10mm to remove. Have been looking for a 24tpi hacksaw/blade & plastic mitre to hold it square but then I keep thinking of the hassle to drop the forks. One day, may be end August when I have the week off (but then I'll be riding it...)

I like to do most of my own work on a bike but cutting steerers isn't worth the investment in tools etc. I pay my lBS to do mine, they only charged me £15 which was worth it for the peace of mind and hassle factor.

slowandsteady

Could you post a pic of the tubi bag once you've got it mounted on the bike?

drlodge

Slowandsteady wrote:

Could you post a pic of the tubi bag once you've got it mounted on the bike?

Sure...complete with pump once I work out how to fix it securely.

drlodge

Slowandsteady wrote:

Could you post a pic of the tubi bag once you've got it mounted on the bike?

Here we go


Can you see where I put the pump?



The bag works pretty well. Its compact and the tub is a tight fit but it does go in, together with co2, cards, cash and multitool. In the only things I can't fit in it are the pump (under the saddle) and keys.

drlodge

Ride Report!

Did 20 miles this morning, the most positive change is the feel of the tyres. The ride is buttery soft although the wheels are clearly stiff, its a great combination. Its hard to say whether they are faster but I expect there are a little faster at speed. I got a couple of PRs but that could be down to a number of reasons. The wheels are a joy to ride on, great for those fast, long Sunday outings. Glad I didn't spend loads of money on them though - they are "better" than the clinchers, but not exactly adding 5mph to my speed (not that I expected it). Clearly even at this quality there is a law of diminishing returns and improvements are modest. Weight is about the same, but they are stiffer in all respects, more aerodynamic and bring an improvement in ride quality.

The only "query" I have is the noise coming from what sounds like the front wheel. There's a combination of two noises:
- the "hollow" sound changes on each revolution, I expect this is due to the valve making a change to the noise when it passes bottom dead centre.
- then there is a "gritty" sound which is most audible when moving slowly. It sounds like grit, or if the spokes are pinging (they're radial) or may be its the valve rattling? I can't quite work it out, they are silent if spun by hand. Any ideas anyone?

TheSmithers

It took a few rides on my new wheels to really appreciate the difference to my old set. I guess it depends on what wheels you've come from. My old wheels were Mavic Aksiums, and compared to those, these new wheels are just on another level! The first time out on them, what was immediately apparent was ride quality and acceleration. Then on longer rides, I started to notice how much easier it was to sustain a decent speed on the flats. Climbing is much better too. All in all, they have transformed my bike and my riding, and that's evident in my avg speeds and the number of PRs I'm getting. The more you ride them, the more you'll appreciate them!

As for the noises you're getting, I can't help you. I haven't had anything like that with mine.

slowandsteady

From what I make out a lot of people put a bit of electrical tape on the valve to stop what has been described as a clicking sound when the valve hits the carbon rim. Could it be that?

petemadoc

Slowandsteady wrote:

From what I make out a lot of people put a bit of electrical tape on the valve to stop what has been described as a clicking sound when the valve hits the carbon rim. Could it be that?

High tech stuff but works perfectly.

drlodge

Think I've sussed it. The noises are simply the treads of the tyres running over the ground, which then gets amplified due to the tubular nature of the tyre and hollow rims. I can here the noise if I take the front wheel off and roll it (with some downward pressure) on the smooth kitchen floor. The treads on these tyres are kinda "pimpled" rather than smooth. May be the sound will change as the tread wears.

Initially I took the bike outside and the tyres were down to about 70psi, the sound was more noticable. I then pumped them up to 140psi and the sound although there, was different.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Think I've sussed it. The noises are simply the treads of the tyres running over the ground, which then gets amplified due to the tubular nature of the tyre and hollow rims. I can here the noise if I take the front wheel off and roll it (with some downward pressure) on the smooth kitchen floor. The treads on these tyres are kinda "pimpled" rather than smooth. May be the sound will change as the tread wears.

Initially I took the bike outside and the tyres were down to about 70psi, the sound was more noticable. I then pumped them up to 140psi and the sound although there, was different.

AH... that's the new and improved ISO Grip of the newer Vittoria CX then...
But most importantly, do they wooshh?

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Think I've sussed it. The noises are simply the treads of the tyres running over the ground, which then gets amplified due to the tubular nature of the tyre and hollow rims. I can here the noise if I take the front wheel off and roll it (with some downward pressure) on the smooth kitchen floor. The treads on these tyres are kinda "pimpled" rather than smooth. May be the sound will change as the tread wears.

Initially I took the bike outside and the tyres were down to about 70psi, the sound was more noticable. I then pumped them up to 140psi and the sound although there, was different.

AH... that's the new and improved ISO Grip of the newer Vittoria CX then...
But most importantly, do they wooshh?

Well...they don't exactly go wooosh, its more of a revurberating sound from the tubs and hollow rims. Its quite a nice sound, actually quite noisy compared to the clinchers! Guess I will get used to it

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Think I've sussed it. The noises are simply the treads of the tyres running over the ground, which then gets amplified due to the tubular nature of the tyre and hollow rims. I can here the noise if I take the front wheel off and roll it (with some downward pressure) on the smooth kitchen floor. The treads on these tyres are kinda "pimpled" rather than smooth. May be the sound will change as the tread wears.

Initially I took the bike outside and the tyres were down to about 70psi, the sound was more noticable. I then pumped them up to 140psi and the sound although there, was different.

AH... that's the new and improved ISO Grip of the newer Vittoria CX then...
But most importantly, do they wooshh?

Well...they don't exactly go wooosh, its more of a revurberating sound from the tubs and hollow rims. Its quite a nice sound, actually quite noisy compared to the clinchers! Guess I will get used to it

I think what you call "gritty" is the coarse gravel that your local council put down and tell you it's tarmac. Tubulars, being tubulars, like tubular bells and organ pipes, tend to give you a reasonable feedback from the surface, which in clinchers is killed when in contact with the rim edges... I personally like it and it's the very reason I like tubulars... it's a bit like a vinyl record vs a digital... that dust on the surface really comes up amplified and gives you a different dimension.

petemadoc

ugo.santalucia wrote:

it's a bit like a vinyl record vs a digital... that dust on the surface really comes up amplified and gives you a different dimension.

Deep Ugo.... deep

drlodge

Of course with digital music, you can compress the hell out of it which gives a different dimension again...that'll be like tubeless clinchers then ;-)

ugo.santalucia

Pipe-like tyres have a "music" that half pipe-like tyres don't have... FACT! 8)

Chop a violin in half and see how it sounds...

rickyrider

drlodge wrote:

So...wheels collected, weighed and fitted, here's how she looks now



For weights:

Bare wheels, without tubs or skewers: F:620g R: 820g so that's a total of 1440g
With tubs and skewers (not cassette): F:928g R:1155g (2083g total)
Compared with clinchers: F:1085g R:1265g (2350g total)
So a weight saving of 267g, which is quite modest and certainly some of that will be at the hub where it matters not.

Top job - they look the business. Thanks for weights as well - interesting to see. Also to hear about your experiences re ride quality of tubular re clincher. As and when I do decide to convert to tubs, I'm pretty sold on the route to go. Maybe a treat for next year to work towards a fast century.

cycleclinic

That build does look good. Silver spokes look better than I thought as well. I am not sure how Planet X are knocking those rims out so cheaply. They must be buying hundreds at a time.

Is that radial on the NDS rear if so that does really mean it is a gigantex they require that for some reason.

Tubs just ride better compared to clinchers. Even gator skin tubs ride well compared to most clinchers.

mulletmaster

Good post thanks.
I have a 32h powertap I would like to lace in to one of these, I've obviously searched and heard opions ranging from "that's totally fine, with the right pattern" to "it can't be done, power taps can't be laced radially on one side"
any thought's from the resident wheel builders?

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Is that radial on the NDS rear if so that does really mean it is a gigantex they require that for some reason.

2 Cross, these are drilled for internal nipples and there is no warning or guidance on lacing pattern. They are also supposed to have an offset, but if it's there it's invisible and even when built as front there is no difference in tension Left to Right, or in the spoke angle or anything really.

Yes 99 pounds a piece is a very attractive price, twice the cost of a decent alloy rim... as opposed to 10 times as in the case of Enve and co. I think it's a good opportunity for a rider to try out carbon without having to take up a loan. Carbon fragility, tubular glueing and repair faff and deep rims side wind behaviour might not be to everyone's taste after all

ugo.santalucia

mulletmaster wrote:

Good post thanks.
I have a 32h powertap I would like to lace in to one of these, I've obviously searched and heard opions ranging from "that's totally fine, with the right pattern" to "it can't be done, power taps can't be laced radially on one side"
any thought's from the resident wheel builders?

Power taps can't be laced radially if you stick to the rule book, but why would you want to lace a 32 radial anyway? Don't think you'll find Gigantex as 32, but BLB sell their Taiwan made Notorious 38 and 50 mm carbon CLINCHERS as 32. I have seen them in the flesh and they look well made, unlike the Chinese stuff. However, the brake track is naked carbon, so no basalt, which means dry use only. I think the 50 mm is just over 200 pounds and the 38 just under