What price hand built, deep section carbon tubular wheels...

drlodge

Lots of people asking about what wheels, or wheel upgrades. Many shying away from hand built wheels either because they think they don't understand enough, or hand built wheels will be too expensive.

I started a thread http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12932656 to explore options, I hope this opens a few eyes as to what can be achieved on a budget.

To go on my Rourke, I already have some nice wheels (Campag Record 32H hubs, Excellight rims, Sapim laser/race spokes GP4000S clinchers) but I wanted something a little more racy, but on a modest budget. I could have bought some factory wheels and paid around a grand for some light weight carbon tubulars, but I did some research and found I could have these wheels built for silly money. And because they use standard j-spokes, if a spoke should ever need replacing its a simple affair. No waiting for months to get a single proprietary spoke.

Hubs: NovaTec F171SB Front/F392SB ED Rear Hub, 24 holes £58 the pair including postage (sdeals.com)
Rims: Planet X 50mm Carbon Rim (the rear ones), 24H £99.99 each (Planet-x)
Tubs: 3 x Vittoria Corsa EVO CX II Tubulars 23mm £38.99 each (Planet-x)
Misc: Valve extenders: 4 x Schwalbe Valve Extensions £14.38 (Wiggle)
Building, spokes and internal nipples: £102.50 (Popular wheel builder on this forum)

So cost to produce the built wheels is a staggeringly low £360.48

Total cost of wheels with tyres including a spare tub is £491.83 - that's under £500 for a ready to ride set of top end wheels! [EDIT: I also needed Campag yellow pads, at £31.99, the rims come supplied with Shimano pads]

Should pick them up tomorrow so a ride report is to follow

smidsy

Oohh, arrgghhh, noooo, stop it....must resist.

Damn you have got me wanting some again!!!!!!

spasypaddy

im very confused.

you state that you bought the PX rims and some novatec hubs and then you say they are top of the range wheels...

rickyrider

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

drlodge

spasypaddy wrote:

im very confused.

you state that you bought the PX rims and some novatec hubs and then you say they are top of the range wheels...

The quality of the parts might not be top end, but (a) the hubs do what hubs need to do (b) the rims are lightweight, 50mm section tubulars similar to if not identical to Gigantex rims. Why do you not think they are "top end" wheels, because they don't cost 4 figures?

I would call then top end wheels since by their very nature, they're deep section carbon tubulars. I would argue the quality of finished wheels is greater than the sum of the parts, and component cost is not necessarily directly proportional to quality. Value for money is at the top end for sure.

Do you think Zipp wheels are top of the range? From what I've seen they're crap, unreliable and dangerous.

spasypaddy

drlodge wrote:

Do you think Zipp wheels are top of the range? From what I've seen they're crap, unreliable and dangerous.

no, which is why i dont use them.

drlodge

rickyrider wrote:

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

That is something I have thought about, I should add the cost of carbon pads to the list too. I have yet to find out if its simply a matter of swapping out the pads (fairly quick) or if the pad holders will need realigning (pain in the arse). I will certainly think when I change the wheels over, I won't do it for a single ride, more like for a week or more when I know the weather will be fine.

As I'm commuting more, the Rourke will tend to be used just at weekends, with the other bike being used during the week. Hopefully this will reduce the need for swapping the pads around (swap bikes instead).

smidsy

rickyrider wrote:

Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

You have overlooked the obvious flaw in your argument....the carbon tubs go on the carbon tub bike and the other wheels go on the other wheel N+1 bike silly.

No time spent changing anything.

drlodge

smidsy wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

You have overlooked the obvious flaw in your argument....the carbon tubs go on the carbon tub bike and the other wheels go on the other wheel N+1 bike silly.

No time spent changing anything.

Don't - I so nearly bought a Scott CR1 Pro frame for £450, but now they're sold out of medium (thank god).

smidsy

Wooose! :-)

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

the rims are lightweight, 50mm section tubulars similar to if not identical to Gigantex rims.

The Planet X 50 mm tubular rims are Gigantex... if you look carefully, they have a sticker with some warnings, one of the warnings is to use the supplied Equinox brake pads. Gigantex and Equinox are the same company. They should really come with Gigantic-Gigantex stickers like Zipp, Mavic and Reynolds do, but then people would start threads on how to remove the stickers...

drlodge

And before someone asks why I bought pads rather than use the supplied ones, its because the supplied ones are Shimano fit, but I have Campagnolo.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

And before someone asks why I bought pads rather than use the supplied ones, its because the supplied ones are Shimano fit, but I have Campagnolo.

That's always been Planet X self imposed limitation, at least in past years... they simply don't aknowledge Campagnolo's existence. Which in their books probably makes sense... pile them high, sell them cheap... of course you can't provide all the choice available on the market and you have to draw the line somewhere... given Campagnolo only makes niche race groupsets, I would have done the same to be honest. They probably cater for less than 1% of the world's folk on two wheels

rickyrider

smidsy wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

You have overlooked the obvious flaw in your argument....the carbon tubs go on the carbon tub bike and the other wheels go on the other wheel N+1 bike silly.

No time spent changing anything.

I know, I know... she's called the wife

rickyrider

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

That is something I have thought about, I should add the cost of carbon pads to the list too. I have yet to find out if its simply a matter of swapping out the pads (fairly quick) or if the pad holders will need realigning (pain in the ars*). I will certainly think when I change the wheels over, I won't do it for a single ride, more like for a week or more when I know the weather will be fine.

As I'm commuting more, the Rourke will tend to be used just at weekends, with the other bike being used during the week. Hopefully this will reduce the need for swapping the pads around (swap bikes instead).

Makes sense. Tbh I could just use my Kona for any wet and grimy weather and be done with it, leaving carbon tubs on TCR for dry days... it's tempting.

ugo.santalucia

rickyrider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

That is something I have thought about, I should add the cost of carbon pads to the list too. I have yet to find out if its simply a matter of swapping out the pads (fairly quick) or if the pad holders will need realigning (pain in the ars*). I will certainly think when I change the wheels over, I won't do it for a single ride, more like for a week or more when I know the weather will be fine.

As I'm commuting more, the Rourke will tend to be used just at weekends, with the other bike being used during the week. Hopefully this will reduce the need for swapping the pads around (swap bikes instead).

Makes sense. Tbh I could just use my Kona for any wet and grimy weather and be done with it, leaving carbon tubs on TCR for dry days... it's tempting.

You can use the soft rubber pads for carbon on alloy rims, just they wear out a lot quicker. The cork pads instead are not suitable

smidsy

I suppose I should get some tubs fitted to my Pianni (Pete Matthews Built) sprint rims seeing as I have them sat in the garage doing nothing.

This thread may just have kicked me into action :-)

petemadoc

drlodge wrote:

So cost to produce the built wheels is a staggeringly low £360.48

Good post drlodge

I ride a similar set of carbon tubs and I'm really impressed. I occasionally race/TT too and I feel comfortable in the knowledge that if they get trashed it'll cost me less to get a whole new set than have a spoke replaced on a top end Mavic wheel.

I would definitely recommend cheaper carbon tubs. Planet x are usually £400 fully built I think. Just to be clear does your full price include the build or did you do DIY?

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

That is something I have thought about, I should add the cost of carbon pads to the list too. I have yet to find out if its simply a matter of swapping out the pads (fairly quick) or if the pad holders will need realigning (pain in the ars*). I will certainly think when I change the wheels over, I won't do it for a single ride, more like for a week or more when I know the weather will be fine.

As I'm commuting more, the Rourke will tend to be used just at weekends, with the other bike being used during the week. Hopefully this will reduce the need for swapping the pads around (swap bikes instead).

Makes sense. Tbh I could just use my Kona for any wet and grimy weather and be done with it, leaving carbon tubs on TCR for dry days... it's tempting.

You can use the soft rubber pads for carbon on alloy rims, just they wear out a lot quicker. The cork pads instead are not suitable

Yeh but I'd rather not risk getting shards of aluminium in the pads that would scratch the carbon rims.

drlodge

PeteMadoc wrote:

drlodge wrote:

So cost to produce the built wheels is a staggeringly low £360.48

Good post drlodge

I ride a similar set of carbon tubs and I'm really impressed. I occasionally race/TT too and I feel comfortable in the knowledge that if they get trashed it'll cost me less to get a whole new set than have a spoke replaced on a top end Mavic wheel.

I would definitely recommend cheaper carbon tubs. Planet x are usually £400 fully built I think. Just to be clear does your full price include the build or did you do DIY?

Price includes build...£102.50 for the build, spokes and internal nipples. This more local builder I used charges the same for build & spokes as Harry Rowland.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Be interested to hear your report on these. I rather fancy a pair of carbon tubs, but what about changing brake pads each time between these and existing wheels? Call me lazy, but it rather puts me off the idea. I find it hard to squeeze 2 x 90 min rides into my week as it is without extra time spent fettling...

That is something I have thought about, I should add the cost of carbon pads to the list too. I have yet to find out if its simply a matter of swapping out the pads (fairly quick) or if the pad holders will need realigning (pain in the ars*). I will certainly think when I change the wheels over, I won't do it for a single ride, more like for a week or more when I know the weather will be fine.

As I'm commuting more, the Rourke will tend to be used just at weekends, with the other bike being used during the week. Hopefully this will reduce the need for swapping the pads around (swap bikes instead).

Makes sense. Tbh I could just use my Kona for any wet and grimy weather and be done with it, leaving carbon tubs on TCR for dry days... it's tempting.

You can use the soft rubber pads for carbon on alloy rims, just they wear out a lot quicker. The cork pads instead are not suitable

Yeh but I'd rather not risk getting shards of aluminium in the pads that would scratch the carbon rims.

Good point...
You are actually not braking on carbon. Unlike the chinese rims, these Gigantex have a coat of particle based material... I am not sure what it is, but it is not carbon fibre... maybe it's the basalt someone talks about... anyway, it's not carbon. Equinox-Gigantex are very secretive when it comes to their technology, in pure far-eastern style they probably don't believe in patents and they rather keep everything secret

rickyrider

Another Q: I'm not a massive w weenie, but I'd be interested to know what the set weighs

drlodge

rickyrider wrote:

Another Q: I'm not a massive w weenie, but I'd be interested to know what the set weighs

I'll put them on my scales when I get them, but the weight will include the tubs. I will also weigh my clinchers as a comparison. The rims are about the same weight (tubs are about 400g, Excellights 430g), Novatec hubs I guess a little more than Campag. I don't expect a big difference.

rickyrider

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Another Q: I'm not a massive w weenie, but I'd be interested to know what the set weighs

I'll put them on my scales when I get them, but the weight will include the tubs. I will also weigh my clinchers as a comparison. The rims are about the same weight (tubs are about 400g, Excellights 430g), Novatec hubs I guess a little more than Campag. I don't expect a big difference.

I only ask because where I mainly ride (Chilterns) there are lots of short sharp hills and my current set up of lightweight alloys (Ksyrium Elites) feel great. Certainly one of the reasons I'd never contemplate carbon clinchers (I'd never spend north of £1000 on proper lightweight carbon clinchers - can't understand anyone who does!)

drlodge

I would never buy carbon clinchers, period! Will take my scales on Thursday so I can weigh the wheels naked.

ugo.santalucia

rickyrider wrote:

drlodge wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

Another Q: I'm not a massive w weenie, but I'd be interested to know what the set weighs

I'll put them on my scales when I get them, but the weight will include the tubs. I will also weigh my clinchers as a comparison. The rims are about the same weight (tubs are about 400g, Excellights 430g), Novatec hubs I guess a little more than Campag. I don't expect a big difference.

I only ask because where I mainly ride (Chilterns) there are lots of short sharp hills and my current set up of lightweight alloys (Ksyrium Elites) feel great. Certainly one of the reasons I'd never contemplate carbon clinchers (I'd never spend north of £1000 on proper lightweight carbon clinchers - can't understand anyone who does!)

Hi Ricky,

I have lived and cycled in the Chilterns for 6 years and I often still go there for a ride. To get some benefit out of deep carbon rims you need to head into Oxfordshire... Thame-Oxford area... there you can unleash them for long stretches of relatively flat roads... as you say in the Buckinghamshire bit of the Chilterns it's all sharp up and down where good braking action is a lot more important than aerodynamics.
Before moving to Surrey I thought the Chilterns were full of traffic... now it seems heaven when I go there... enjoy..

rickyrider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Hi Ricky,

I have lived and cycled in the Chilterns for 6 years and I often still go there for a ride. To get some benefit out of deep carbon rims you need to head into Oxfordshire... Thame-Oxford area... there you can unleash them for long stretches of relatively flat roads... as you say in the Buckinghamshire bit of the Chilterns it's all sharp up and down where good braking action is a lot more important than aerodynamics.
Before moving to Surrey I thought the Chilterns were full of traffic... now it seems heaven when I go there... enjoy..

It's the northern Chilterns I ride most - triangle between Wendover / Berko / High Wycombe mainly. Some of the best riding in the whole of the UK in my biased opinion Deep down I know that my wheels are brilliant for the riding I do. I definitely would NOT want to be coming down some of the hills I regularly ride on with carbon rims in the rain! I also know that I wouldn't get much benefit from them either. But they look so lovely...must resist...

slowandsteady

You should have got black spokes. All the discerning cyclists do that. I'll post a pic of mine when they arrive.

I plan yellow swisstop pads as they can be used on Ali rims too. A quick check to see if they are clear of stray metal should be easier than changing pads.

drlodge

Slowandsteady wrote:

You should have got black spokes. All the discerning cyclists do that. I'll post a pic of mine when they arrive.

I plan yellow swisstop pads as they can be used on Ali rims too. A quick check to see if they are clear of stray metal should be easier than changing pads.

Ooh I don't like black spokes, they might look better but the anodizing is no good for the strength.

I have the yellow swisstop pads, I might be tempted to keep them on the bike to save swapping the pads out often, or at least during the summer months.

meesterbond

For what it's worth, the newer Red Campag brake pads are really excellent. A bit of a nightmare to fit, but stop carbon rims as well as aluminium in the dry.

avababy24

Kind of going the same route using the Planet x rims. Waiting on the Miche hubs (shimano 11 spd for the new Ultegra) 24 hole. Then I've opted for black CX Ray spokes. Also got the same tyres from the same supplier as the rims.