Mavic SLR and R-SYS wheel failure

richarde_2005 · October 2013

Mike Cotty wrote:

richarde_2005 wrote:

Hi (this is kind of addressed to Mike Cotty for additional info to pass back to Mavic)
I have ridden a set of Mavic Ksyrium SL Premiums for the last 5 years doing over 30,000 miles and found them totally bomproof. They have required no spoke maintenance and are still perfectly true. (The only service required has been to lube and then replace the freehub body). They have performed flawlessly on intensive training weeks on Lanzarote (- some rough roads there!), several Etapes, la Marmotte, Maratona and many UK 100mile sportives.

So when building up a new bike for this years Haute Route Alps I went for the (higher spec?) Ksyrium SLRs. After 3 months and 2000miles I suffered a Zicral (drive side) spoke failure on the rear wheel for no apparent reason. No pothole or bump hit - just a fast compression followed by an out of the saddle small climb. Mavic replaced the wheel with a brand new one which arrived just the week before the start of the Haute Route in August. The wheels were excellent during this 550mile 21,000m week long event. However on a "simple" ride out yesterday I had another Zicral drive side spoke failure on the rear wheel. Could this just be "bad luck" or something else? I originally assumed that my first failure was likely a defect in the spoke alloy but is it possible that the mix of carbon (non-drive side) and Zicral (drive-side) spokes can lead to over-stressing the drive side? I weigh in at 82Kg and so should be well within the weight limit for these wheels. I'm just about to return it to the MSC again and will update when there is more info.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the info, 5 years and 30k miles is very impressive. If Strava gave awards for going the distance on a pair of wheels you'd be the untouchable KOM! :-)

Sorry for the inconvenience of your second spoke failure. The MSC will certainly be able to look at the wheel in full and get you back on the bike ASAP.

I'll be sure to pass all of this info to Mavic.

Ride safe,

Mike

Hi Mike
had the wheel back from the MSC with a rebuild this time (rather than a replacement) and will be doing the Autumn Epic, Wiggle White Peak and the Tour of Worcestershire in the next few weeks so that should give them a workout!. Having looked at the construction of the wheels and hubs I also think that, whilst it may not be recommended, a field repair of a drive side spoke should be possible without removing the cassette. (I'm mindful of the original post where Sean descended the Galibier to Bourg d'Oisans with a buckled wheel). So I've decided to keep a spare taped to the frame but hope I don't ever have to use it :-)

mikeknudsen · October 2013

Hi there,
I love my R-sys SLR's they look, feel and ride fantastically. Classy wheels, hence I'm triple disappointed as in 8 months and after 4000 km I have now had my 3rd ally drive side spoke failure.... To be fair to mavic! first failure they rebuild the entire drive side and replaced all the ally spokes. 2nd time round they replaced the wheel with a brand new one. 3rd time yet to see what they do. LBS has dealt with each case with good service.

I'm 72 kg which is 162 pounds, and each failure has been on smooth roads with the spoke snapping right where the thread starts. Loud ping, spoke on the road and wheel throws a wobbly so it hard to keep it clearing the frame to limp back home. Hey ho so far only in training but I dread training for 10 months only to loose a rear wheel half way through the Marmotte.

3 R&D time lucky as this time I found this thread which is confirming that I'm not alone. My theory is that the ally drive side spokes are not operating within their design stress envelope. Put simply the carbon spokes are doing less work as the wheels are heavily dished making the drive side almost flat. The carbon spokes may or may not be stronger but they work with much bigger angles so tension is much lower. Drive side failures right at the start of the nipple thread suggest stress induced metal fatigue after around 1000 - 2000 km. it's not a one off impact event as the rims, tires etc are spotless. Long term low impact stress fatigue is something the brainier bike design books raise as a concern with lighter bike products.

Any other views welcomed, I'm an avid Mavic fan and have other Mavic wheels that are bomb proof. What I really hope is that the rocket scientists at mavic have been working on a redesign of the spoke to eliminate the stress points or can offer an alternative spoke material, stainless springs to mind... No pun intended.

It must cost mavic a few pennies in warranty cost and if the Internet forums start taking off. Reporting these issue their sales will plummet. Which is a shame as the wheels are great and just need a small adjustment to the spoke / nipple interface to eliminate the stress points.

Nuf said, would be great to hear other views on causes and fix's though mine are still in warranty. If not I'd be chasing down some black stainless bladed straight pull spokes,

ugo.santalucia · October 2013

Have I said before that these Zicral spokes are crap?

964cup · October 2013

mikeknudsen wrote:

Nuf said, would be great to hear other views on causes and fix's though mine are still in warranty. If not I'd be chasing down some black stainless bladed straight pull spokes,

Meh. I blew a drive-side spoke on my DA9000 C24s this weekend. That'll be a black, stainless bladed straight pull spoke. I think this is overblown. Manufacturers build wheels that will sell. Light weight sells. We buy 'em. We break 'em.

I'd not be surprised if the failure rate per km ridden is similar for all 1400g wheelsets. It's just that the SLRs have the novelty of carbon spokes, so they make the news (and have a rather spectacular failure mode on the front, granted).

Grill · October 2013

My carbon spoke are bombproof. Perhaps everyone should just buy RZR's instead :P

Bookwyse · October 2013

Guys, let's remember a couple of things here.

1) manufacturing processes can produce spokes/wheels that could be slightly out of tolerance, over time this could cause failure.

2) we do not know how many Mavic r-sys wheels are produced/sold/in use or how many of those have failed.

3) as above but for all other wheel manufacturers.

4) the internet is great for slagging firms off when things go wrong but how many people post that they have the same products with no issues.

Some people will love these products (I love my r-sys SL's and my Elite S's) but others will hate them. It's horses fir courses and no one gets anywhere by slagging each other off.

BrandonA · October 2013

I have a pair of these wheels and have ridden approximately 3,000 miles on them. I've not had any issues with mine.

I even love the tyres that come with them and completed about 1,800 miles before I replaced the first set - only had one puncture during this period which occurred when I hit a big pot hole.

Apart from the fact that they've changed the decals since I got my wheels in May, I'd definitely recommend them to others. The new decals are rubbish though in comparison to the older ones.

Brian B · October 2013

I have been following this thread and have seen others similar threads over the years and as I own three pairs of SL's on my bikes I thought that I would share my views specially after what happened to me today and what has happened in the past when I have broken spokes.

I am 6ft2" and at 80kgs so I am close to the working weight of these wheels and except my weight has probably contributed to the problems I have had.

Out of my three pairs I have broken several spokes on two of my back wheels and twice during a sportive. When this happens the wheels go so much out of true that even removing brake blocks wont get you home as the wheel will just rub on the frame. 2 out of 3 is not a good ratio for failure and the only saving grace is when I have replaced the spokes is that the wheels have been fine but were slightly out of true.

Today I was out and snapped a spoke on my front wheel when descending a hill and the wheel buckled instantly and jammed in the forks almost throwing me off the bike. There was no repair possible. I had to walk three miles to the nearest town to arrange transport home and to buy new cleats

These wheels are great when working and will stay true and will take some abuse but if you snap a spoke then you have to except there is no way you can limp home and some shops wont repair these wheels.

Zircal spokes are just not good enough and although light they are not strong.

All my wheels are nearing the end of their life so I don't feel bad in replacing them but for me I am going for hand built in future with a 36 spoke count so I can limp home if I snap a spoke.

I do a lot riding myself all over blighty and abroad and for me I want reliable wheels and wheels that the spokes are easy to come by to get a fix in an emergency.

robbo2011 · October 2013

Interesting post Brian, yours is the first post I have read on this forum about spokes breaking on SL wheelsets. As an owner of SLS wheels, I am interested in getting closer to the 'truth' of the situation, rather than the usual internet hyperbole (which I am afraid is the case on this forum unfortunately).

I am already dubious of the SLR design, but SLs seem to be very reliable from what I have read. How many miles were done on these wheels before the spokes went?

I have had no problems with mine yet, but they are still quite new. Hopefully they'll do better than the pitiful Easton wheelset that came with my bike which lasted only 5000 km before hub problems and spoke breakage.

I need to use an aluminuim rims because I want reliable braking in the mountains. It's too expensive to buy handbuilts over here because of high labour costs, so if the SLS wheels give problems, then I'll probably go down to Elites which I am confident are very reliable wheels.

The SLS is a damn good climbing wheelset (light and very stiff) so I'll be a bit gutted if they crap out on me early.

sancho_panza · October 2013

I've got Cosmic SLs - 30,000km, still on the original brake pads, and only went slightly out of true last week as I smashed into Switzerland's only pothole.

Surely road quality must be a significant factor in all this? (Haven't ridden in Blighty for six years now).

smidsy · October 2013

Sancho Panza wrote:

Surely road quality must be a significant factor in all this? (Haven't ridden in Blighty for six years now).

No.
1. We (mostly UK folk) ride the same roads regardless of wheels, so are comparing like for like.
2. A good wheel should not go out of true or break a spoke just because you hit a few bumps.

sancho_panza · October 2013

smidsy wrote:

Sancho Panza wrote:

Surely road quality must be a significant factor in all this? (Haven't ridden in Blighty for six years now).

2. A good wheel should not go out of true or break a spoke just because you hit a few bumps.

So why would a good wheel go out of true? (Or suffer a broken spoke) It does seem to have happened quite gradually. Anyway, it's in for a service so I can ask the shop too. I don't recall any kind of side impact.

Brian B · October 2013

robbo2011 wrote:

Interesting post Brian, yours is the first post I have read on this forum about spokes breaking on SL wheelsets. As an owner of SLS wheels, I am interested in getting closer to the 'truth' of the situation, rather than the usual internet hyperbole (which I am afraid is the case on this forum unfortunately).

I am already dubious of the SLR design, but SLs seem to be very reliable from what I have read. How many miles were done on these wheels before the spokes went?

I have had no problems with mine yet, but they are still quite new. Hopefully they'll do better than the pitiful Easton wheelset that came with my bike which lasted only 5000 km before hub problems and spoke breakage.

I need to use an aluminuim rims because I want reliable braking in the mountains. It's too expensive to buy handbuilts over here because of high labour costs, so if the SLS wheels give problems, then I'll probably go down to Elites which I am confident are very reliable wheels.

The SLS is a damn good climbing wheelset (light and very stiff) so I'll be a bit gutted if they crap out on me early.

Hi Robbo - On both sets of SL's where I had the problem with the back wheels was after a year of summer riding only but they had been over some pretty bad roads, cattle grids etc. I replaced the spoke and then a few months later on each set I snapped another rear spoke but after the second repair have been fine but a mm or so out of true.

The pair of wheels that I was on yesterday when I snapped the front spoke were 5 years old and up to then I have had no problems with either front or back. These wheels have been all over the French and Italian Alps, Pyrenees and up Mt Ventoux 15 times and over every moor and desolate road in North Britain. I reckon I have put in about 15,000 miles on that front wheel and was due to be retired after this year anyway due to rim wear.

The SL's are great wheels and reliable and I think for climbing they take some beating. The down side is when 1 spoke go's then you cannot cycle any further.

I have to admit that in comparison to other wheels then these have been great. Before I got these wheels I was using hand build's because I had a habit of wrecking wheels like Ultegra, Fulcrum 3's and Campag within a few months. At 80kg's and my height I am a big lad and as I have said my weight is close to the maximum limit of these wheels so I am confident that lighter riders will have no problems with these wheels.

I am going back to hand build's just for the reliability of them and the ease of repair.

smidsy · October 2013

Sancho Panza wrote:

So why would a good wheel go out of true? (Or suffer a broken spoke) It does seem to have happened quite gradually. Anyway, it's in for a service so I can ask the shop too. I don't recall any kind of side impact.

Pick any from:
Poorly built,
poor components,
rider too heavy for given wheels,
rider too powerful for given wheels,
accident damage (not general riding on UK roads - even in Cheshire :evil: ).

Iamnot Wiggins · December 2013

TOM14S wrote:

I've had zero issues with Mavic Zirical spokes. I do have the SLS rather than the SLR's at the moment.
They seem a very popular wheel with the people I know and nobody knows of anyone who's had an issue with spokes breaking. I've heard the spokes on Mavic wheels pinging before which I've always been able to sort out for people.
Looking at a cycling Mag this evening the Mavic SLS wheels also seem a popular wheel on a lot of bikes in that. So they can't be that bad.
I've discussed the technicals with Ugo before and he does seem to have something against them, legitimate in his eyes and experience but not from my experience or engineering technical knowledge.
To be honest - Steel spokes break, Zirical spokes break I don't see a difference.

May I ask how? I've an old set of Kysrium Elites that I've had for years and they make the occasional pinging, mainly when I'm out of the saddle. What causes it? They're still reasonably straight, rims aren't concave & the bearings still run for ages.

ddraver · December 2013

That sounds a bit bearing related to me Wiggins...although obviously it's impossible to tell from a computer screen...

smidsy · December 2013

Iamnot Wiggins wrote:

I've an old set of Kysrium Elites that I've had for years and they make the occasional pinging, mainly when I'm out of the saddle. What causes it?

Movement somewhere so look for any defect in hub or rim and also spoke holes.

ugo.santalucia · December 2013

Iamnot Wiggins wrote:

TOM14S wrote:

I've had zero issues with Mavic Zirical spokes. I do have the SLS rather than the SLR's at the moment.
They seem a very popular wheel with the people I know and nobody knows of anyone who's had an issue with spokes breaking. I've heard the spokes on Mavic wheels pinging before which I've always been able to sort out for people.
Looking at a cycling Mag this evening the Mavic SLS wheels also seem a popular wheel on a lot of bikes in that. So they can't be that bad.
I've discussed the technicals with Ugo before and he does seem to have something against them, legitimate in his eyes and experience but not from my experience or engineering technical knowledge.
To be honest - Steel spokes break, Zirical spokes break I don't see a difference.

May I ask how? I've an old set of Kysrium Elites that I've had for years and they make the occasional pinging, mainly when I'm out of the saddle. What causes it? They're still reasonably straight, rims aren't concave & the bearings still run for ages.

It's lack of tension, I have seen the same on other Ksyrium wheels and increasing the tension has cured it

Iamnot Wiggins · December 2013

Thanks Ugo but the spokes seem tight to me ie; no movement when fiddled with, no rattling etc. I don't have access to any specific tools that can measure spoke tension to be fair though.

ugo.santalucia · December 2013

Iamnot Wiggins wrote:

Thanks Ugo but the spokes seem tight to me ie; no movement when fiddled with, no rattling etc. I don't have access to any specific tools that can measure spoke tension to be fair though.

Yeah, well, Ksyrium spokes need to be more than just tight... if you download the manual it gives you an indication of the tension needed. If your LBS had a basic tension meter, they can have a go... anyway, that's how I resolved the issue of ticking spokes in some Mavic wheels...

TOM14S · December 2013

Iamnot Wiggins wrote:

TOM14S wrote:

I've had zero issues with Mavic Zirical spokes. I do have the SLS rather than the SLR's at the moment.
They seem a very popular wheel with the people I know and nobody knows of anyone who's had an issue with spokes breaking. I've heard the spokes on Mavic wheels pinging before which I've always been able to sort out for people.
Looking at a cycling Mag this evening the Mavic SLS wheels also seem a popular wheel on a lot of bikes in that. So they can't be that bad.
I've discussed the technicals with Ugo before and he does seem to have something against them, legitimate in his eyes and experience but not from my experience or engineering technical knowledge.
To be honest - Steel spokes break, Zirical spokes break I don't see a difference.

May I ask how? I've an old set of Kysrium Elites that I've had for years and they make the occasional pinging, mainly when I'm out of the saddle. What causes it? They're still reasonably straight, rims aren't concave & the bearings still run for ages.

Answer to your question is on page 4 of this thread about two responses below my text your quoted.
They may have lost some tension, I think the noise comes from movement between the spoke and the hub flange., Which is why some people suggest lubing this area... hiding the issue not fixing it.

freddiegrubb · December 2013

Phew!!! read every page & a few opinions here lads, I won't offer mine I don't know enough about the subject.

ugo.santalucia · August 2014

Just finished repairing one of these (actually it's a R-sys, but same thing as far as spokes go). The guy crashed against the bike in front when the latter braked suddenly. 5 cracked tracomp spokes is the result. They are pretty simple to replace, if a bit expensive... I wonder if the famous image on the web is the result of a similar crash and not viceversa... either way, pretty fragile things for a club ride... As they were already damaged, I had a go at breaking them and it takes the same effort as snapping a wooden BBQ skewer :?

majormantra · August 2014

Bending a metal spoke that's not built into a wheel takes very little effort too, and similarly proves nothing.

on-yer-bike · August 2014

Are the big alloy spokes in Campag Shamal and Eurus wheels prone to the same problems?

ugo.santalucia · August 2014

MajorMantra wrote:

Bending a metal spoke that's not built into a wheel takes very little effort too, and similarly proves nothing.

True, but this is not in tension... you can snap it just as easy when it's on the wheel

ugo.santalucia · August 2014

on-yer-bike wrote:

Are the big alloy spokes in Campag Shamal and Eurus wheels prone to the same problems?

No... these are hollow carbon tubes, very stiff and strong on the vertical axis, but very fragile on the transverse axis

majormantra · August 2014

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MajorMantra wrote:

Bending a metal spoke that's not built into a wheel takes very little effort too, and similarly proves nothing.

True, but this is not in tension... you can snap it just as easy when it's on the wheel

Not sure how rigorous this test is, but I imagine Mavic would disagree: http://youtu.be/j4eDwFoCXn4

Anyway, have you actually tried breaking spokes on a fully built and tensioned R-Sys?

ugo.santalucia · August 2014

MajorMantra wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MajorMantra wrote:

Bending a metal spoke that's not built into a wheel takes very little effort too, and similarly proves nothing.

True, but this is not in tension... you can snap it just as easy when it's on the wheel

Not sure how rigorous this test is, but I imagine Mavic would disagree: http://youtu.be/j4eDwFoCXn4

Anyway, have you actually tried breaking spokes on a fully built and tensioned R-Sys?

Test made with no load... the wheel has virtually no weight, doesn't prove much... :roll:

Obviously I haven't tried to deliberately break a 10 pounds spoke... :?

However, 5 cracked in a single go seems good going to me, considering there are only 8 on one side of the wheel...

patrickf · August 2014

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Just finished repairing one of these (actually it's a R-sys, but same thing as far as spokes go). The guy crashed against the bike in front when the latter braked suddenly. 5 cracked tracomp spokes is the result. They are pretty simple to replace, if a bit expensive... I wonder if the famous image on the web is the result of a similar crash and not viceversa... either way, pretty fragile things for a club ride... As they were already damaged, I had a go at breaking them and it takes the same effort as snapping a wooden BBQ skewer :?

Don't let Rolf see the tape on those spokes! :P

Mavic SLR and R-SYS wheel failure

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