Zipp hubs: explosions and recalls

13

Comments

  • itsnotarace
    itsnotarace Posts: 518
    I wonder how many of these hub failures are related to overshifting the rear mech into the spokes. Something which is easily done by swapping wheels or cassettes and not adjusting the limit screws. The trouble is that nobody is willing to admit user error and just blames the hub design.

    The really telling part is that these issues always appear to happen at low speeds. ie going uphill.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    itsnotarace wrote:
    I wonder how many of these hub failures are related to overshifting the rear mech into the spokes. Something which is easily done by swapping wheels or cassettes and not adjusting the limit screws. The trouble is that nobody is willing to admit user error and just blames the hub design.

    The really telling part is that these issues always appear to happen at low speeds. ie going uphill.

    Your problem is that you trust a profit making corporation over people who are not going to make a profit out of that... :?

    If that was the case, then:

    1) That would happen even with the V 9 hub and therefore a re-design would be silly

    2) You would notice significant damage to the spokes away from the hub

    3) that would bend the spokes and chew them but shouldn't break a flange. I repair a lot of wheels that have been damaged by a dropped chain and in no case the hub ends up being damaged.

    4) IF that was the case, then Zipp should issue a warning to only use their wheels paired with a spoke protector disc... are you going to fit one, just in case... ? :wink:

    Your wheels might be in the 99.9%, but pretending the problem has been made up is going a bit too far
    left the forum March 2023
  • DKay
    DKay Posts: 1,652
    Really interesting thread. All of a sudden, classified ads selling older Zipps at low prices don't look so tempting anymore.
    N
    N+1
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    DKay wrote:
    Really interesting thread. All of a sudden, classified ads selling older Zipps at low prices don't look so tempting anymore.

    The most annoying thing is that Zipp refuse to aknowledge there is a problem... they are dismissive, but it's inevitable someone will get hurt at some point and threads like this will be used as evidence of negligence. It would be nice of them to botch up a solution... different from "we have redesigned the hub for 2014" which doesn't help those who have the pre 2014 model... the hub has plenty of clearance to insert a properly designed reinforcement steel ring, which would only involve releasing the tension, inserting the ring, retensioning the wheel or an outboard retainer that contains the "explosion"
    left the forum March 2023
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    In Google type:

    Campagnolo hub failure.
    Chris King Hub failure.
    Hope hub failure.
    Tune hub failure.

    Enjoy the posts and images.

    This is getting really, really pathetic and I totally agree with itsnotarace - as a mod you are meant to be impartial and guess what - a moderator!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    And from now on I will delete any further comment which is off topic.

    This is the hub
    freehub.jpg

    My thought is that there is plenty of room to fit a metal (steel?) ring to reinforce the flange. It would need to be machined to take the spokes... that could be a quick and inexpensive fix... would be interested in opinions...
    left the forum March 2023
  • lawrences
    lawrences Posts: 1,011
    That probably wouldn't stop hub failure unless you got it machined to a very good tolerance. But any failure wouldn't be catastrophic as hopefully that fix would retain all the spokes.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    lawrences wrote:
    That probably wouldn't stop hub failure unless you got it machined to a very good tolerance. But any failure wouldn't be catastrophic as hopefully that fix would retain all the spokes.

    Well, my hope would be that Zipp came out with something along those lines. Hubs can crack, it's not a Zipp prerogative, what is scary is the mode of failure which always involves 2-3 spokes at the same time and if the "explosion" can be contained and the effects minimised, the consequences can be less catastrophic... it's the fire door principle... it won't stop the fire or prevent it from happening, but it will buy you time to get to safety
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    darkhairedlord wrote:
    Notable that the novatec hub failures shown above only lost the one spoke...

    True. Also, with those it's questionable whether it is a hub problem or a build problem, as all sorts of people build these hubs... however, al hubs can crack, more so (but not exclusively) when built radially. Most manufacturers advise against, others like Novatec don't
    left the forum March 2023
  • tim12p
    tim12p Posts: 3
    Wow, it's certainly been busy in this thread since i last added my two cents about my V8 Zipp 188 hub. Not overly helpful though... :(

    In any case, an update on my issue; After 3 weeks, i received my wheel back from Zipp via a local bike shop in Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne, France (Sport 2000 - who were excellent by the way). The good news is that they replaced the hub with the new v9 but with the original rim. The bad news is that there is now so much play in the the wheel and hub combination that when i ride off the seat the wheel flexes about 5 millimetres either side so i have to open up the brake callipers so it doesn't rub . This is despite checking the lockrings on the hub bearings. The hub seems rigid but the wheel as a whole is sloppy. I have a feeling that the spoke tension is a lot less than the original wheel with the V8 hub which is probably contributing to the lack of rigidity - although i don't have any measurements to substantiate this.

    Unfortunately i now have buyer's remorse. I can't recommend this wheel to anyone in it's current state. Unfortunate, because the front wheel is fantastic.

    Anyone have any ideas?
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    Take the rear to a trusted LBS who can see if the rear spokes can take more tension?
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    tim12p wrote:
    Wow, it's certainly been busy in this thread since i last added my two cents about my V8 Zipp 188 hub. Not overly helpful though... :(

    In any case, an update on my issue; After 3 weeks, i received my wheel back from Zipp via a local bike shop in Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne, France (Sport 2000 - who were excellent by the way). The good news is that they replaced the hub with the new v9 but with the original rim. The bad news is that there is now so much play in the the wheel and hub combination that when i ride off the seat the wheel flexes about 5 millimetres either side so i have to open up the brake callipers so it doesn't rub . This is despite checking the lockrings on the hub bearings. The hub seems rigid but the wheel as a whole is sloppy. I have a feeling that the spoke tension is a lot less than the original wheel with the V8 hub which is probably contributing to the lack of rigidity - although i don't have any measurements to substantiate this.

    Unfortunately i now have buyer's remorse. I can't recommend this wheel to anyone in it's current state. Unfortunate, because the front wheel is fantastic.


    Anyone have any ideas?

    The only way a wheel can flex that much (hub issues aside... have you checked the preload?) is if you have NO tension in your spokes. I would assume a Zipp service centre capable of rebuilding a Zipp wheel. It's difficult to assess spoke tension with those Sapim CX Ray spokes, as if the tension is lower than 700 N it doesn't show on a commercially available tension gauge, but that doesn't mean there isn't any.
    The best thing is to go back to the shop... at the end of the day you paid a lot of money for those wheels and shouldn't be ashamed to ask for them to be "rideable" at the very least
    left the forum March 2023
  • tim12p
    tim12p Posts: 3
    Fair call. I'll be taking it back for sure. Only issue is that i'm living in another country away from the shop that i bought them from. The spoke tension isn't slack. It's just that in my assessment it's not as high as the original wheel with the V8 hub. I've checked the pre-load and it doesn't appear to be an issue.

    Thanks for the advice.
  • Iamnot Wiggins
    Iamnot Wiggins Posts: 685
    Please excuse my ignorance but I don't really have much knowledge when it comes to Zipp wheels. With the aforementioned hub issues, would it be wise to avoid a pair of the shallower 202's? I don't know if they share the same hub or not :?:
  • napoleond
    napoleond Posts: 5,992
    Each wheel depth all share the same hubs.
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    ABCC Cycling Coach
  • Iamnot Wiggins
    Iamnot Wiggins Posts: 685
    Might give them a miss then! Cheers.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    Iamnot Wiggins wrote:
    Might give them a miss then! Cheers.

    Depends what price you get... the tubular rims are nice, very light, in line with Enve 1.45... quite possibly the best "climbing" rims on the market... IF you don't trust the hubs and have someone local who can rebuild them for you it might still make sense.
    I don't think you can buy any cheap 300 grams carbon rim that you can take to the alps
    left the forum March 2023
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    After my ZIpp hub exploded, I had all my Zipp wheels rebuilt with 3rd party hubs. Not only are they lighter, but stronger.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    A first admission from Zipp

    http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... ubs-43610/
    left the forum March 2023
  • pcurtis
    pcurtis Posts: 4
    Hi all

    Last week Zipp/SRAM recalled front wheels with 88 hubs manufactured between 2008-2010. They were due to replace hubs and spokes. However they have called me today to say my 303 was unsafe and they would replace my wheels with the Zipp 60s. They highlighted that the carbon was failing around some of the spoke holes and confirmed that it is not caused by me. Despite being out of warranty SRAM are replacing it out of "goodwill". My issue is that a) I don't see how a wheel with less than 2000km should be failing unless there is a manufacturing defect and b) the zipp 60s have a heavier and entry level hub made in Taiwan. I have argued tat they are offering me an inferior wheelset and are also refusing to return my 303. Not very happy at all.

    Has anyone else experienced similar issues and did they get a better resolution that merely being forced to accept the 60? Thanks
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    Sounds appalling... a ZIpp 60 for a 303 is not a good deal... a bit like getting a Skoda for a Ferrari... there is already a sticky thread in the workshop section if you prefer to contribute there... or maybe I will merge this with that?
    left the forum March 2023
  • pcurtis
    pcurtis Posts: 4
    Thanks for the reply. If you could merge with the other thread that would be great (or point me in the right direction).

    It actually gets worse, in order to not have a mismatched wheelset they want me to handover my 404 rear also! So far SRAM are refusing to deal with my directly.
  • Fastbassett21
    Fastbassett21 Posts: 5
    Got a pair of 2012 303s sent the rear wheel back due to excessive play as its either to slack or I felt the drag was to much if I removed the play , never got any joy.
    They seem very flexy to me unless you run them to tight in my opinion .
    Other than that no problems I think the rims are very good but I'm now wondering about changing the hubs esp the rear one as I have never been happy with it and am wondering what would be a good choice any views ideas ?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    Fastbassett21 wrote:
    Got a pair of 2012 303s sent the rear wheel back due to excessive play as its either to slack or I felt the drag was to much if I removed the play , never got any joy.
    They seem very flexy to me unless you run them to tight in my opinion .
    Other than that no problems I think the rims are very good but I'm now wondering about changing the hubs esp the rear one as I have never been happy with it and am wondering what would be a good choice any views ideas ?

    It is a very common issue among Zipp users.
    I had some joy in the past rebuilding a 303 on a Dura Ace hub, otherwise Hope Mono RS is a good choice and so is Dt Swiss 240.
    All of them are much better hubs than the Zipp and they don't use the dreaded preload cap. You will have to sacrifice the radial pattern on the drive side though, which in my view is an added bonus of a rebuild

    I wrote a piece at the time here
    http://whosatthewheel.com/2014/12/27/zi ... t-rebuild/
    left the forum March 2023
  • Fastbassett21
    Fastbassett21 Posts: 5
    Thanks I will prob go the 240 route as already have some on some open pro's and had no issues with them at all.
    To keep the cost down will just do the rear at this stage as I have not had any issues with the front (I'm touching some wood)...
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    Fastbassett21 wrote:
    Thanks I will prob go the 240 route as already have some on some open pro's and had no issues with them at all.
    To keep the cost down will just do the rear at this stage as I have not had any issues with the front (I'm touching some wood)...

    Makes sense. If you do it yourself, read the article and seek advice as the rim washers are a bit of a PITA to be honest
    left the forum March 2023
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    Great, my 2013 404 rear hub has 3 hairline cracks emanating from 1 spoke hole on the DS flange. It looks like all the other on this thread just before they exploded.

    Rideable or not? Or should I defo leave the wheel aside?

    Will post a pic if I figure out how.
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    FransJacques wrote:
    Great, my 2013 404 rear hub has 3 hairline cracks emanating from 1 spoke hole on the DS flange.

    I daresay the thread is self explanatory.

    Back to the retailer... see if you can claim something... I would like to think Zipp would sort it out for you... :roll:
    If not, get it rebuilt on a decent hub
    left the forum March 2023
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    Yup, it was during the Giro di Sardegna a couple weeks back. Was just unpacking the race bike and cleaning it. 3 nasty silver crows feet cracks which are very noticeable against the black hub. And there is a 3 mm crack coming from one of the spoke holes on the opposite side of the same flange.

    Guess what? I was not the only one - there were about 15-20 Brits down racing in the Giro and one of the Pretorius riders had a DS flange failure on his 404s while underway. Lucky for him a nice (Italian) team provided him a spare for the remaining 2 stages.

    Before this happened I was all like "what are you pansies whining about, these hubs are fine, MTFU". I've defo saved my 404 FCs for racing which I only do 12-15 times a year, most of which is on billiard-smooth CP or HH so they're hardly pounded. The braking surfaces are mint.

    I LOVE these wheels (well, the rims) - over 35 kph they are much faster than CL24s or Ardennes etc. but there's a big BUT with them.

    Will let you know how the warranty goes, I can't remember where I bought it from... :-( Wiggle, CRC Merlin, or Ribble...
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,311
    FransJacques wrote:

    Guess what? I was not the only one - there were about 15-20 Brits down racing in the Giro and one of the Pretorius riders had a DS flange failure on his 404s while underway. Lucky for him a nice (Italian) team provided him a spare for the remaining 2 stages.

    Before this happened I was all like "what are you pansies whining about, these hubs are fine, MTFU". I've defo saved my 404 FCs for racing which I only do 12-15 times a year, most of which is on billiard-smooth CP or HH so they're hardly pounded. The braking surfaces are mint.

    Well, you have probably read the piece I wrote last year on my blog, if not, it's still there.

    http://whosatthewheel.com/2014/12/27/zi ... t-rebuild/

    In my opinion the design is completely flawed: the flange, where the radial spokes are held, is so thin and fragile that any engineer would struggle to make it work even not including fatigue in the equation... that 2 mm ring of aluminium is supposed to hold nearly a ton and a half equivalent weight spread radially?
    If you then factor in fatigue failure, I struggle to believe the percentage of reported damages to the flange is 0.1%, as I was told by a Zipp rep.

    It will be interesting to see how the retailer/distributor deals with your case, being out of warranty... let's hope you don't just get some Haribo... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023

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