Zipp hubs: explosions and recalls

Spinonit

Out on my bike sat and going downhill at about 35-40mph when the rear hub of my zipp 101
sheared off at the drive side flange.

The piece of metal flew past my mate who was behind me (he thought it was my brake calliper that had come off!!)

The resulting damage was spectacular, the spokes ripped thru my rim slashed the tyre.took chunks out of my cranks and exstensively scratched my frame it also made a bit of a mess of my ankles.

Any one had this happen to them?

turnerjohn

warrenty job that ! nasty....glad your ok !

Will keep an eye on mine though there on 404's so guessing spoke tension will be lower so less stress...I hope !

Spinonit

I have heard a few people mention that the tension on the drive side of these hubs is quite high due to the lacing patern of the spokes.

I would have thought that the spokes would have snapped before the hub tho !!!!

giant_man

always seems to be the hubs with zipps ...

napoleond

Yep, Colin Pokerface's front had exactly that happen in the national champs a few weeks ago.

https://twitter.com/ttworldchamp/status ... 4481607680

bernithebiker

For the price they charge for these things, that should definitely NOT be happening. Ever.

napoleond

bernithebiker wrote:

For the price they charge for these things, that should definitely NOT be happening. Ever.

They shouldn't be happening if they charged a third as much tbh...

ugo.santalucia

turnerjohn wrote:

warrenty job that ! nasty....glad your ok !

Will keep an eye on mine though there on 404's so guessing spoke tension will be lower so less stress...I hope !

I have recently measured the tension of a rear 404 and it was not particularly high... around 100 KgF... with the exception of one spoke (probably the one the LBS replaced) the hub was a 188

My lowdown on these is here if anyone is interested

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... o-zipp-now

Spinonit

The main problem i have is that the wheels were a present from my now ex other half,so i have no receipt and no way of getting one.
ZIPP will only entertain a warranty if you are the original purchaser with the original receipt.
I have e-mailled ZIPP with pictures,but they have just told me to take them back to my dealer and did not seem interested beyond that,
But as i dont know where they were purchased from and i dont have a receipt it looks like im
knacked,unless any one on here knows a solution.
It doesnt seem right that something this bad should just get disregarded.

ugo.santalucia

Spinonit wrote:

The main problem i have is that the wheels were a present from my now ex other half,so i have no receipt and no way of getting one.
ZIPP will only entertain a warranty if you are the original purchaser with the original receipt.
I have e-mailled ZIPP with pictures,but they have just told me to take them back to my dealer and did not seem interested beyond that,
But as i dont know where they were purchased from and i dont have a receipt it looks like im
knacked,unless any one on here knows a solution.
It doesnt seem right that something this bad should just get disregarded.

1) first rule is don't give up

2) How old are the wheels and how long is the warranty?

3) Even if they are out of warranty, I would try to make a claim on the grounds that "the product is not fit for purpose" and dangerous... the accident could have killed you, don't forget to stress this point, there is room for legal action on these grounds

4) I think I would drill them more on the latter point rather than the warranty... if it turns out they are selling a dangerous product, they are in big sxxt... I would pursue this avenue, making sure the wheels have never been touched by anyone who is not an authorised Zipp dealer

Spinonit

Thanks for the advice, the wheels are just over 2 years old and are out of ZIPP`S 2 year warranty by a couple of months(typical)

ugo.santalucia

Spinonit wrote:

Thanks for the advice, the wheels are just over 2 years old and are out of ZIPP`S 2 year warranty by a couple of months(typical)

OK
First thing is to seek advice from a local Zipp retailer, see what they have to say and whether they are willing to help you with this, surely they don't want you to go showing that to all their local customers.
Failing that, keep dealing with Zipp and contact trading Standards for advice. The sale of goods act impose a product to be fit for purpose. I have no doubt you will get compensation, it's just a matter of how deep you want to dig... remember they could have killed you

Spinonit

I have e-mailed fischer outdoor who i believe are the uk importers
see what reply i get

ugo.santalucia

Spinonit wrote:

I have e-mailed fischer outdoor who i believe are the uk importers
see what reply i get

These things take time, but you are in the right and if you follow the right avenues, you will succeed.
One thing you might find useful: the very first rule about lacing wheels is that YOU DON'T LACE A REAR DRIVE SIDE RADIAL! This has been known since the late 19th century... clearly at Zipp they have reinvented the wheel!
Flange failure is often due to radial lacing, so there is clearly a design flaw, combined with bad engineering (flange is not strong enough to take radial lacing)..... you are up to something here... :twisted:

Monty Dog

ugo.santalucia wrote:

YOU DON'T LACE A REAR DRIVE SIDE RADIAL! [/u]

Should have told Mavic...they've been doing it since 1999 with Ksyrium SLs and Isopulse.

Anyway, Zipp in fragile product shocker....

crikey

As Monty says, Mavic have been doing this for years, and I've ridden Mavic wheels for a very, very long time. The pair on my winter bike have done the 3 peaks cyclocross twice...

ugo.santalucia

I know Mavic does it too... it still is bad practice and leads to catastrophic failures like the one in the photo. Flanges crack, but a flange ripped completely that way can only be the result of radial lacing. I was giving the OP a point to argue in case he needs one... I don't want this to become another handbuilt vs factory wheels topic

crikey

I'm not that sure that you can categorise it as 'bad practice' when it seems to work in certain applications. It's a way of dealing with the issues presented by a dished rear wheel in terms of equalising spoke tension; there are other approaches, and no single 'best' answer.

As you suggest, it is dependent on a hub which can withstand the stresses; I've seen flange failure in wheels built 3 cross too.

The OP photo suggests the problem lies with the strength of the hub, not the building method.

ugo.santalucia

crikey wrote:

As you suggest, it is dependent on a hub which can withstand the stresses; I've seen flange failure in wheels built 3 cross too.

The mode of failure is different... the cracks always develop at 90 degrees from the spoke direction... in a crossed pattern that results in displacement of one spoke only, leaving a rideable wheel, in this case a wide section of the hub has been ripped on a wheel that only has 20 spokes, causing the wheel to collapse.

crikey

in this case a wide section of the hub has been ripped on a wheel that only has 20 spokes, causing the wheel to collapse.

...er, I know because I can see it, but thanks for the description. :roll:

in a crossed pattern that results in displacement of one spoke only, leaving a rideable wheel,

That rather depends on how much of the flange breaks; I've seen 4 spokes displaced and the wheel collapsed.

ugo.santalucia

Zipp has now released their new rear hub for 2014, basically following common sense and in practice admitting wrongdoing in their earlier model such as

1) having an underengineered flange

2) the radial drive side pattern being a stupid idea

or at least that's what I read from their sale pitch fanfare

"In September 2013 we released a stronger and more durable revised 188 rear hub. Larger 2 x 61903 hub bearings, wider non-drive flange, virtual 3x cross lacing on drive and non-drive sides. Front hub remains unchanged (V7)

Not sure how the OP problem was resolved, but in view of this, he should be offered a rebuild on the new hub at the very minimum

funkywomen

hello,

here's some pix of my front wheel hub firecrest 303 tubular bought early 2012. this happened while riding only 30kmh at the start of my ride. a loud bang and the wheel collapsed downwards. thankfully i was ok and didn't crash.

totally lost confidence in the brand and the wheels.

it's within the 2 year warranty so i sent it in. i am based in germany. zipp, as noted on website, will leave it up to the retailer on what to do. outside the US they said no control over quality and replacements. sent it back to the retailer who passed it to the importer/wholesaler who fixed the wheel and its ready to ship back to me. they put in a similar hub since the color was grey and zipp's improved hub only comes in black from end 2012 onwards i read.
trawled the net and found quite a few stories out there. zipp has taken note and improved its hub apparently with the help of mr cavendish. right... who i am sure would have refused to ride on any of their wheels otherwise.

point is: how can a brand allow this to happen? a recall or replacement should be done if the company really stands for its values on quality and safety.

i could go on about the costs and what not to do this as i myself work in the sports business. it will come down to the $$$ in the end.

think again... anyone fancy a descent on these wheels?...

thegreatdivide

funkywomen wrote:

hello,

here's some pix of my front wheel hub firecrest 303 tubular bought early 2012. this happened while riding only 30kmh at the start of my ride. a loud bang and the wheel collapsed downwards. thankfully i was ok and didn't crash.

totally lost confidence in the brand and the wheels.

it's within the 2 year warranty so i sent it in. i am based in germany. zipp, as noted on website, will leave it up to the retailer on what to do. outside the US they said no control over quality and replacements. sent it back to the retailer who passed it to the importer/wholesaler who fixed the wheel and its ready to ship back to me. they put in a similar hub since the color was grey and zipp's improved hub only comes in black from end 2012 onwards i read.
trawled the net and found quite a few stories out there. zipp has taken note and improved its hub apparently with the help of mr cavendish. right... who i am sure would have refused to ride on any of their wheels otherwise.

point is: how can a brand allow this to happen? a recall or replacement should be done if the company really stands for its values on quality and safety.

i could go on about the costs and what not to do this as i myself work in the sports business. it will come down to the $$$ in the end.

think again... anyone fancy a descent on these wheels?...

Only 2 posts, both slating a manufacturer who you state replaced your damaged hub...

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

Only 2 posts, both slating a manufacturer who you state replaced your damaged hub...

Only 2 posts but not the only one... in fact other two users of the forum had the same issue, one of them is well known by everybody on the forum and a world champion and paraolympian!
Creating awareness on a topic that has been kept silent by the manufacturer is not unfair... Zipp should have done the right thing in recalling this model and offering a replacement... instead they have quietly changed the design leaving current customers unaware and with a potentially dangerous product... if you think that is responsible on their part, I think not...

GiantMike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...a potentially dangerous product...

Didn't it stop being potentially dangerous when it became actually dangerous?

nweststeyn

Whilst it's great that Zipp have replaced the products, I do agree that there should have been a recall when they had the chance. Other than the 3 examples on this forum, I know of two non-forumites who have had exactly the same fault occur. That's 5 instances of the same problem on a wheelset that not all that many people own.

harmonix1234

Yeah, I had this EXACT thing happen to me yesterday.
Had the wheels not one year and the rear hub flange literally snapped off like a row of chocolate off the block.
Luckily for me I was only travelling about 20kph at the time and just stood up and pushed (not too hard) and heard a god almighty noise from my rear wheel like someone had thrown bunch of knifes and forks into my wheel combined with a lound "CRANNGGG'.
Before I had time to even contemplate what the noise might be, my rim (which was not pulled right over to one side due to tension loss) got jammed up hard agaist my seat stay and almost threw me straight over the front of the bike as the wheel locked up.

I was actually going through an intersection too and luckily I managed to dismount and shoulder the bike to the foopath and there was no traffic behind me.

Had I been riding on the road with a bus behind me, or descending my local training ride at 60kph I dread to think of what could have happened.

The wheel has been taken to my local where I purchased it and they are going to send off for warranty evaluation.
I am yet to hear back from them, but it's only been 24 hours so I am anticipating with brilliance.

If they do replace the wheel, I am seriouusly considering putting a DT Swiss 240s hub in there instead.
Which is a shame because I just spent $750 on this wheel (retail) and a new hub also means new spokes, so in turn I have payed $750 just for a rim, plus the $350 for the DT hub.

In hindsight, I regret not buying three sets of ultegra wheels for the price I payed for this set of Zipps.

On a side note - I might add that I have actually had more problems than this one instance.

Out of the box the rear wheel wasn't true, wasn't round, and was dished so hard to one side I couldn't mount it in my frame with my 28c tyres as it ushed up against one side of the frame.
Also, the bladed spokes, straight out of the box two sets of spokes were actually rubbing on their edges like two knife blades and had to be rest flat against eachother.

On my first ride, there was a creaking groaning noise, and to my horror it appears that a step in the QA process was missed. There was no grease in the hub, or where the bearings seat.
After some googling I found that there should have been some white grease put in at the factory, but there was nothing. They were bone dry. My local greased em up properly and the creaking noise went away

The troubles then started with the wheel staying true.
I could ride for about two hours beofre the spokes came so loose that the wheel would rub on my brake pads in a pulsing manner. I kept going to my local and showing the guys who were happy to make the minor adjustments on several occasions.
After being fed up with this happening again and again I took them back to my local whose head mechanic did a lovely rebuild and a great trueing and dishing job and for the next ten months they didn't skip a beat, until yesterday.

It's a shame, because it is the first time I have ever upgraded a wheelset on a bike and always ridden factory installed wheels. And never had a problem.
After getting a tax return, and much research I took the plunge and spent $1,500 on a set of aluminium clinchers. Seems excessive, but I wanted the best, I wanted to trat myself to some world class engineering, which is something I love about this sport, we can have what the pros have if we want to pay for it.
Anyway, I am regretting my decision and wish I had never purchased them.

It is also worth noting that out of the box the front wheel has been legendary. Absolutely flawless from day #1.

The trouble is, that now I don't think I cannot trust the Zipp branded rear hubs.
Every time I ride I am investing the trust of my life in the hands of these engineers.
If I cannot trust my life with the equipment, I just cannot use it.

Such a shame.

harmonix1234

Spinonit wrote:

Thanks for the advice, the wheels are just over 2 years old and are out of ZIPP`S 2 year warranty by a couple of months(typical)

Yes, but Zipp also has a 4 year 'crash replacement' warranty. Keep in mind.

I would be penning a letter to Zipp not as a warranty seeker, but as an advocate for safety against unsafe products being made available to the public.
It's obvious that it is a design flaw, or a materials of manufacturing flaw.
Zipp would be well aware of the problem due to the amount of people seeking warranties for this, and the engineers have done nothing. Their design has stayed the same and the issue has not been addressed and rectified through re-design.

The bottom line is:

The company is selling a dangerous and flawed product to the public with knowledge of the fault.
It is iresponsible business practice, and is putting peoples lives in danger.
I am sure that all of their manufacturing tolerences are well within the guidelines as specified for production and distribution so it's a david and goliath problem.
But if you use this angle, it may help.

thegreatdivide

harmonix1234 wrote:

Spinonit wrote:

Thanks for the advice, the wheels are just over 2 years old and are out of ZIPP`S 2 year warranty by a couple of months(typical)

Yes, but Zipp also has a 4 year 'crash replacement' warranty. Keep in mind.

I would be penning a letter to Zipp not as a warranty seeker, but as an advocate for safety against unsafe products being made available to the public.
It's obvious that it is a design flaw, or a materials of manufacturing flaw.
Zipp would be well aware of the problem due to the amount of people seeking warranties for this, and the engineers have done nothing. Their design has stayed the same and the issue has not been addressed and rectified through re-design.The bottom line is:

The company is selling a dangerous and flawed product to the public with knowledge of the fault.
It is iresponsible business practice, and is putting peoples lives in danger.
I am sure that all of their manufacturing tolerences are well within the guidelines as specified for production and distribution so it's a david and goliath problem.
But if you use this angle, it may help.

http://www.zipp.com/technologies/hub/88-188-hubs.php

philbar72

i'm getting mine ready for use in racing and i read this. Ugo, i'm gonna get a Dura ace hub, and we'll get you to refit the wheel i've got with that, i think becuae mine is a late 2012 version we should go for a more sensible spoke arrangement, and also brass nipples.... (kind of the way wheels should always be made!)....

ugo.santalucia

philbar72 wrote:

i'm getting mine ready for use in racing and i read this. Ugo, i'm gonna get a Dura ace hub, and we'll get you to refit the wheel i've got with that, i think becuae mine is a late 2012 version we should go for a more sensible spoke arrangement, and also brass nipples.... (kind of the way wheels should always be made!)....

Noted