Europcar and cortisone...
Comments
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Richmond Racer wrote:Pross wrote:Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!
My personal fave is tennis players getting a mid-match injection to enable them to continue
That is, of course, the downside. But then I don't suppose the athletes have a gun to their head. That said, guys like Andy Flintoff must have taken years off their career by numbing injuries they continued to exacerbate.
This is an interesting aspect to anti-doping in cycling. Do we want the sport to be completely bread and water or just on a par with ever other mainstream sport in terms of medical care for elite athletes?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:Pross wrote:Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!
My personal fave is tennis players getting a mid-match injection to enable them to continue
What... but when we were discussing drugs in cricket, Rich95 told me that players don't play through injuries any more."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
They don't. It's very rare. I was told this in a conversation with a physio who used to work with Glamorgan CCC and a current member of the Kent CCC squad. So if you know better than them good for you.inkyfingers wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:Pross wrote:Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!
My personal fave is tennis players getting a mid-match injection to enable them to continue
What... but when we were discussing drugs in cricket, Rich95 told me that players don't play through injuries any more.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I think it depends on the player. Freddie was certainly patched up and returned sooner than he should have been and the same with Simon Jones (although in both cases they still had long periods out following injury / surgery). Cycling has to be the worst sport for making participants carry on regardless though, I know a lot of riders get back on of their own accord but you often see a DS or soigneur virtually lifting a clearly injured rider back onto a bike and getting them going again.0
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My "other" sport is Rugby League and I reckon at least a third of all the players on the park in any given weekend of Super League are playing through an injury of some sort.
Cortisone is an accepted method of managing strains, pulls etc and even speeding up the time in getting a player out there from something like a bicep tear.
The vast majority of the "walking wounded" are probably, bruises, broken fingers etc. but in RL, I think "toughing it out" is still the norm."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Pross wrote:I think it depends on the player. Freddie was certainly patched up and returned sooner than he should have been and the same with Simon Jones (although in both cases they still had long periods out following injury / surgery). Cycling has to be the worst sport for making participants carry on regardless though, I know a lot of riders get back on of their own accord but you often see a DS or soigneur virtually lifting a clearly injured rider back onto a bike and getting them going again.
That's the nature of the neast though. The event isn't going to be stopped and the clock stopped with it whilst a doctor makes an assessment. In a sport like cycling where the measure of victory is time, it makes sense to put them on a bike if you can and work out how far they can continue afterwards."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
That's confirmed what I thought about cortisone.
I know there are stories of riders with arses like swiss cheese due to excessive cortisone abuse but to get heavy handed with Europcar over this doesn't do any good for anyone.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:That's confirmed what I thought about cortisone.
I know there are stories of riders with arses like swiss cheese due to excessive cortisone abuse but to get heavy handed with Europcar over this doesn't do any good for anyone.
Precisely. If Pierre Rolland wants to risk further injury and shortening his career for a better dig at the Dauphine with a product that isn't banned, why stop him?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
RichN95 wrote:
They don't. It's very rare. I was told this in a conversation with a physio who used to work with Glamorgan CCC and a current member of the Kent CCC squad. So if you know better than them good for you.inkyfingers wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:Pross wrote:Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!
My personal fave is tennis players getting a mid-match injection to enable them to continue
What... but when we were discussing drugs in cricket, Rich95 told me that players don't play through injuries any more.
I'd never claim to be an expert, and i'd hope your source is correct (especially as a follower of Kent), but the fact is that you are only talking about one physio, out of many. We see and hear of so many sportsmen playing through injuries (not just in cricket), that you have to ask how they are doing that. If I was in contention for an Ashes place but had a bit of a sore knee, i'd consider doing pretty much anything to play if I thought I could get away with it, after all, a place in sporting history, a bestselling autobiography and a big IPL contract beckon. Oh and no, i'm not making any allegations against KP, just an example I came up with without really thinking about it.
My post was slightly sarcastic of course, but wasn't really meant as a personal snipe at you Rich, always have a lot of time for your opinions."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
Cycling is different than other sports though. They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.disgruntledgoat wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:That's confirmed what I thought about cortisone.
I know there are stories of riders with arses like swiss cheese due to excessive cortisone abuse but to get heavy handed with Europcar over this doesn't do any good for anyone.
Precisely. If Pierre Rolland wants to risk further injury and shortening his career for a better dig at the Dauphine with a product that isn't banned, why stop him?Twitter: @RichN950 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:We don't know if Rolland is taking 'performance enhancing' quantities or not.
Not reading French, can somebody explain how we don't know this and how we know he is using it at all in that case?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
That was just a general comment by me, not specifically about Rolland. But in the past we have heard tales of cyclists scratching their scrotum until it's red raw so they can get a cortisone TUE. (Sorry if you're eating your lunch).Rick Chasey wrote:We don't know if Rolland is taking 'performance enhancing' quantities or not.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
That was just a general comment by me, not specifically about Rolland. But in the past we have heard tales of cyclists scratching their scrotum until it's red raw so they can get a cortisone TUE. (Sorry if you're eating your lunch).Rick Chasey wrote:We don't know if Rolland is taking 'performance enhancing' quantities or not.
Was half way through a bag of Cheesy Wotsits which only made it worse.
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I thought Cortisone was an old form of doping.
Here's a Wiki thing-
Bernard Thévenet won the 1975 and 1977 Tour de France editions by using cortisone. "I was doped with cortisone for three years and there were many like me", he said.[30] The experience had ruined his health, he said.
Spanish rider Luis Ocaña tested positive in his last participation in the Tour de France in 1977 which was called the Tour of Doping.
Tour of Doping; Ha Ha! We'll have to drag that one out again!!
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
Pross wrote:Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!
I played a decent standard of rugby, fairly common for club doctors to give cortisone injections when the need arose. I had one every 6 months in a persistent shoulder injury, although I was told that 3 injections was the maximum I could have before surgery was the only remaining option. Injections hurt like hell but meant I didn't miss a season.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:We don't know if Rolland is taking 'performance enhancing' quantities or not.
All we know I think is that his cortisol was down, suggesting that he may have been taking corticosteroids. As discussed, the only enhancing feature of corticosteroids is that they may allow him to carry on with an injury.
Corticosteroid injections are pretty standard in many sports and nothing to get excited about. The problem is he apparently hadn't applied for TUE if he was using them, and if he is using repeatedly he will potentially damage his injured tendon/joint/scrotum further.
Seem to remember that LA's predated TUE for corticosteroids was one of the things people got agitated about. Of his many sins this was probably the least relevant to his performance.0 -
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?Twitter: @RichN950 -
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?0 -
When the MPCC start making a big deal about brandy let me know.DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?Twitter: @RichN950 -
DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?
I think as I quoted Bernard Threvenet seem to reckon it helped him win a few Tours. It was a general Steroid of choice some years back.
I have heard from an old Cyclist who knew someone, who knew someone who was a big cheese in the 80's and 90's said that this rider wanted to use the drug for a persistent knee injury but had doped so much with Cortisone that when needed for medical use, the drug was impotent. Let's just say this is hearsay in case anyone likes to join the dots.
This link is about Rolf Sorensen who admitted to doping with Cortisone and EPO-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/ma ... o-rabobank“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
Fair point. Although, even the MPCC stress that the Cortisol test is for health reasons. Cortisone injections are not illegal with a TUE. It is relatively easy to get a TUE for cortisone. Ask Gilbert. The thing is that you're not supposed to ride for 8 days after taking it. The reason I suspect Europcar are running foul of the MPCC testing is that they have a relatively small squad with basically a couple of stars so there is pressure on them to ride a lot. I doubt that they are taking cortisone any more than many other teams and it is probably for the treatment of injuries. My theory is that they are under pressure to ignore the 'don't ride after you've taken it rule'.RichN95 wrote:
When the MPCC start making a big deal about brandy let me know.DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?
Edit: And to add weight to this theory, Pierre Rolland is ranked 7th in terms of number of race days during 2013 and he hasn't even raced his major goal, the TDF yet.
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/StatsRaceDays.asp?year=20130 -
DeadCalm wrote:
Fair point. Although, even the MPCC stress that the Cortisol test is for health reasons. Cortisone injections are not illegal with a TUE. It is relatively easy to get a TUE for cortisone. Ask Gilbert. The thing is that you're not supposed to ride for 8 days after taking it. The reason I suspect Europcar are running foul of the MPCC testing is that they have a relatively small squad with basically a couple of stars so there is pressure on them to ride a lot. I doubt that they are taking cortisone any more than many other teams and it is probably for the treatment of injuries. My theory is that they are under pressure to ignore the 'don't ride after you've taken it rule'.RichN95 wrote:
When the MPCC start making a big deal about brandy let me know.DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?
Edit: And to add weight to this theory, Pierre Rolland is ranked 7th in terms of number of race days during 2013 and he hasn't even raced his major goal, the TDF yet.
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/StatsRaceDays.asp?year=2013
Ahhh, keep the faith!!
You could also say that Rolland might need a steroid to keep him going, just a thought. “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
It's not a question of faith. I'm not particularly a fan of either Europcar or Pierre Rolland. It's just that I try and avoid insinuating that someone is a doper when there is no particular evidence to do so. If someone can give a better answer to Mad Max's question about the performance enhancing effects of cortisone than 'it was the drug of choice in the seventies' I might reconsider. Absent that answer I believe the most likely scenario is that Rolland is a victim of Bernadeau's need to have his top riders racing as much as possible in order to maximise his chances of securing new sponsorship and save the team.jerry3571 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Fair point. Although, even the MPCC stress that the Cortisol test is for health reasons. Cortisone injections are not illegal with a TUE. It is relatively easy to get a TUE for cortisone. Ask Gilbert. The thing is that you're not supposed to ride for 8 days after taking it. The reason I suspect Europcar are running foul of the MPCC testing is that they have a relatively small squad with basically a couple of stars so there is pressure on them to ride a lot. I doubt that they are taking cortisone any more than many other teams and it is probably for the treatment of injuries. My theory is that they are under pressure to ignore the 'don't ride after you've taken it rule'.RichN95 wrote:
When the MPCC start making a big deal about brandy let me know.DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?
Edit: And to add weight to this theory, Pierre Rolland is ranked 7th in terms of number of race days during 2013 and he hasn't even raced his major goal, the TDF yet.
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/StatsRaceDays.asp?year=2013
Ahhh, keep the faith!! You could also say that Rolland might need a steroid to keep him going, just a thought.0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
It's not a question of faith. I'm not particularly a fan of either Europcar or Pierre Rolland. It's just that I try and avoid insinuating that someone is a doper when there is no particular evidence to do so. If someone can give a better answer to Mad Max's question about the performance enhancing effects of cortisone than 'it was the drug of choice in the seventies' I might reconsider. Absent that answer I believe the most likely scenario is that Rolland is a victim of Bernadeau's need to have his top riders racing as much as possible in order to maximise his chances of securing new sponsorship and save the team.jerry3571 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Fair point. Although, even the MPCC stress that the Cortisol test is for health reasons. Cortisone injections are not illegal with a TUE. It is relatively easy to get a TUE for cortisone. Ask Gilbert. The thing is that you're not supposed to ride for 8 days after taking it. The reason I suspect Europcar are running foul of the MPCC testing is that they have a relatively small squad with basically a couple of stars so there is pressure on them to ride a lot. I doubt that they are taking cortisone any more than many other teams and it is probably for the treatment of injuries. My theory is that they are under pressure to ignore the 'don't ride after you've taken it rule'.RichN95 wrote:
When the MPCC start making a big deal about brandy let me know.DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?
Edit: And to add weight to this theory, Pierre Rolland is ranked 7th in terms of number of race days during 2013 and he hasn't even raced his major goal, the TDF yet.
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/StatsRaceDays.asp?year=2013
Ahhh, keep the faith!! You could also say that Rolland might need a steroid to keep him going, just a thought.
I'm just amazed at your faith in Pro Cyclists being clean. I wouldn't have the time to list all the dopers who have been caught so it's more of a case of believing who doesn't. I would have thought after all the years of bad publicity that we were beyond all this. Cycling has a 130 years of Doping history; it's the culture, us Anglophiles need to get used to it. At least they are not catching Trains like they used to; that's the best we can hope for. :roll:“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
That is not the debate we were having. The question was whether cortisone is used by cyclists as a performance enhancer. You have not come up with a shred of evidence that it is. No matter how much you try and patronise me, whether or not pro-cycling is cleaner now is not a debate I am prepared to be dragged into by you because, frankly, you don't listen to reasoned arguments.jerry3571 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
It's not a question of faith. I'm not particularly a fan of either Europcar or Pierre Rolland. It's just that I try and avoid insinuating that someone is a doper when there is no particular evidence to do so. If someone can give a better answer to Mad Max's question about the performance enhancing effects of cortisone than 'it was the drug of choice in the seventies' I might reconsider. Absent that answer I believe the most likely scenario is that Rolland is a victim of Bernadeau's need to have his top riders racing as much as possible in order to maximise his chances of securing new sponsorship and save the team.jerry3571 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Fair point. Although, even the MPCC stress that the Cortisol test is for health reasons. Cortisone injections are not illegal with a TUE. It is relatively easy to get a TUE for cortisone. Ask Gilbert. The thing is that you're not supposed to ride for 8 days after taking it. The reason I suspect Europcar are running foul of the MPCC testing is that they have a relatively small squad with basically a couple of stars so there is pressure on them to ride a lot. I doubt that they are taking cortisone any more than many other teams and it is probably for the treatment of injuries. My theory is that they are under pressure to ignore the 'don't ride after you've taken it rule'.RichN95 wrote:
When the MPCC start making a big deal about brandy let me know.DeadCalm wrote:
In the Sixties, Brandy was considered performance enhancing. Doesn't mean that it was though.RichN95 wrote:
I'm no expert, so I don't know - but as Jerry mentioned above, it was a drug of choice in the 70sMad_Malx wrote:RichN95 wrote:They are taking it for it's perfermance enhancing qualities, not to mask an injury. The injury is an excuse to use it not the reason to.
Don't agree with this. Do you know of any performance-enhancing qualities (aside from ^)?
Edit: And to add weight to this theory, Pierre Rolland is ranked 7th in terms of number of race days during 2013 and he hasn't even raced his major goal, the TDF yet.
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/StatsRaceDays.asp?year=2013
Ahhh, keep the faith!! You could also say that Rolland might need a steroid to keep him going, just a thought.
I'm just amazed at your faith in Pro Cyclists being clean. I wouldn't have the time to list all the dopers who have been caught so it's more of a case of believing who doesn't. I would have thought after all the years of bad publicity that we were beyond all this. Cycling has a 130 years of Doping history; it's the culture, us Anglophiles need to get used to it. At least they are not catching Trains like they used to; that's the best we can hope for. :roll:0 -
The quick answer as to why Cortisone might be considered performance enhancing would be that by reducing inflammation it might allow riders to train harder and longer.
As I understand it, Cortisone also increases blood pressure - which is a definite performance enhancer.
Vayer thinks it may also have a psychological role (though I'm a little dubious of anything that comes from him).
I've also seen it said that it has an effect on switching metabolic pathways, which could leave more easily burnable energy reserves for the climax of a stage. I've got no source for that though.
Note: I'm not an expert in any way and will happily be put right by anyone that has actual knowledge rather than the bog-standard "what do the different drugs do" kit that pro-race fans like myself are now supplied with :-)Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
I don't know how pro athletes can live without cortisone.0
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I still can't see anything that confirms he has taken cortisone - the reports say his cortisol levels are down.
This may be because
1. He has been taking cortisone (or other glucocorticoid) in an attempt to improve performance but has now stopped. It can take weeks to recover natural cortisol production, because the synthetic glucocorticoid switches off natural production
2. He has been taking cortisone (or other glucocorticoid) repeatedly to treat injury, and now stopped ....
3. He has been chronically overtraining/over competing
4. and/or he has a medical condition
If 1 he should be hung up by the danglies. If the intent is there then it is cheating, but I'm still of the opinion that the actual performance benefits are negligible while taking cortisone and DETRIMENTAL ONCE HE STOPS, so it would be a particularly stupid sort of cheating.
If 2, 3 or 4 he needs rest & treatment. I would side mainly with 2 or 3.
EDIT For 2, he is in violation without a TUE, so should face the specified sanction, but this would require proof that he has received the glucocorticoid (rather than his cortisol levels are low, so he possibly/probably has.
There is a study that followed cortisol levels in riders in the Tour, showing how, in a sample of riders, they fall by the end of week 3 to levels close to the lower threshhold (can't find this one just now), and this is attributed to fatigue and over-exercise. It isn't beyond possibility that levels in an individual rider could fall very low solely due to overtraining/competing.
Digging deeper there IS a small amount of data that suggest potential performance benefits (summarised by Montlavan & Duclos, 2008, Br J Sports Medicine, but this is not generally available free) - rats run further on their wheels when given glucocorticoids - and some hypothetical benefits (EDIT - this will be while taking them, and NOT after stopping). I haven't had chance to look closely at these, but I very much doubt that doses used to treat injury would make any difference at all.
I have a student dissertation I happened to looking at today to thank for this reference.0
