Europcar and cortisone...

Richmond Racer

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-rout ... tir/377583


And this after the Anthony Charteau issue last year. This time, Rolland.


Daniel Friebe @friebos 8m
The notion that cortisone abuse is 'light' doping or somehow OK is nonsense and needs to be dispelled.


David Millar @millarmind 8m
THIS IS BULLSHIT. No cortisone!!! "@friebos: Europcar. Cortisone. Again. Sort it out, JR. lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-r…"

pitchshifter

Not familiar with these rules of MPCC. Whats the deal? They raced him when he wasn't healthy?

Biffcp

pitchshifter wrote:

Not familiar with these rules of MPCC. Whats the deal? They raced him when he wasn't healthy?

Technically yes. Low levels of (naturally occurring) cortisol can be an indicator of the (ab)use of cortisone (banned without a TUE). Riders with low levels of cortisol are normally ordered to rest.

Richmond Racer

pitchshifter wrote:

Not familiar with these rules of MPCC. Whats the deal? They raced him when he wasn't healthy?

Under the MPCC rules, the riders undergo health checks including cortisol tests. And one of the MPCC rules is that a rider with a suspiciously low cortisol level must be rested for eight days. One explanation for low levels can be doping with cortisone.

In Rolland's case they let him continue riding and then pulled him out of St 8 after 20k, giving an achilles tendonitis problem as the issue.

pitchshifter

I see, so its probably a case of abusing the TUE system. Can you get a TUE exemption through your team doctor or does it have to be an independent one?

disgruntledgoat

Richmond Racer wrote:

pitchshifter wrote:

Not familiar with these rules of MPCC. Whats the deal? They raced him when he wasn't healthy?

Under the MPCC rules, the riders undergo health checks including cortisol tests. And one of the MPCC rules is that a rider with a suspiciously low cortisol level must be rested for eight days. One explanation for low levels can be doping with cortisone.

In Rolland's case they let him continue riding and then pulled him out of St 8 after 20k, giving an achilles tendonitis problem as the issue.

I have to manage that. It's a sore one.

Richmond Racer

Well, this is turning into quite the soap opera (naturally, its cycling)

Bernaudeau claims that the MPCC doctor authorised Rolland being able to continue. Said doctor denies this and says Bernaudeau's a liar.

Just another day in road racing

Roger Legeay must be having a fit

LeicesterLad

Richmond Racer wrote:

Well, this is turning into quite the soap opera (naturally, its cycling)

Bernaudeau claims that the MPCC doctor authorised Rolland being able to continue. Said doctor denies this and says Bernaudeau's a liar.

Just another day in road racing

Roger Legeay must be having a fit

Europcar seem to keep getting caught up in similar things but then it goes quiet and we don't hear much about it. Sure something similar happened last year? My memory isn't what it used to be.

Richmond Racer

LeicesterLad wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Well, this is turning into quite the soap opera (naturally, its cycling)

Bernaudeau claims that the MPCC doctor authorised Rolland being able to continue. Said doctor denies this and says Bernaudeau's a liar.

Just another day in road racing

Roger Legeay must be having a fit

Europcar seem to keep getting caught up in similar things but then it goes quiet and we don't hear much about it. Sure something similar happened last year? My memory isn't what it used to be.

Yep. Testing at 4 Jours de Dunkerque last year - Anthony Charteau not allowed to continue

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french- ... -dunkerque

inkyfingers

LeicesterLad wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Well, this is turning into quite the soap opera (naturally, its cycling)

Bernaudeau claims that the MPCC doctor authorised Rolland being able to continue. Said doctor denies this and says Bernaudeau's a liar.

Just another day in road racing

Roger Legeay must be having a fit

Europcar seem to keep getting caught up in similar things but then it goes quiet and we don't hear much about it. Sure something similar happened last year? My memory isn't what it used to be.

If this wasn't Europcar, we'd certainly have more than 8 posts in the thread.

Sounds like a right mess, not good at all.

salsiccia1

inkyfingers wrote:

If this wasn't Europcar, we'd certainly have more than 8 posts in the thread.

If this was Sky, there'd be 8 threads...

petemadoc

With my limited understanding and reading of internet stuff this fcuking stinks! !

I've had doubts about Rolland and TV seems more than a little suspect but this is not good. Feels like the 50% thing all over.

rick_chasey

So what performance advantage does cortisone abuse provide?

Honest question - I don't know.

RimTape

So what performance advantage does cortisone abuse provide?

Better recovery I believe.

rick_chasey

RimTape wrote:

So what performance advantage does cortisone abuse provide?

Better recovery I believe.

OK.

I've never heard a rider go "OMG, definitely abusing Cortisone", and it seems to be allowed in doses if the doctor says it's all cool, so it can't be that big a deal.

Yellow Peril

Rick Chasey wrote:

RimTape wrote:

So what performance advantage does cortisone abuse provide?

Better recovery I believe.

OK.

I've never heard a rider go "OMG, definitely abusing Cortisone", and it seems to be allowed in doses if the doctor says it's all cool, so it can't be that big a deal.

I believe it can have harmful long term effects.

LeicesterLad

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RimTape wrote:

So what performance advantage does cortisone abuse provide?

Better recovery I believe.

OK.

I've never heard a rider go "OMG, definitely abusing Cortisone", and it seems to be allowed in doses if the doctor says it's all cool, so it can't be that big a deal.

I believe it can have harmful long term effects.

Isn't it a form of Steroid cream - all of which are bad news in the long run. Riders still willing to take the risks shows a great naivity.

Oral use of cortisone has a number of potential systemic side-effects: hyperglycemia, insulin resistance, diabetes mellitus, osteoporosis, anxiety, depression, amenorrhoea, cataracts and glaucoma, among other problems.[1][2]

Local side effects are rare but can include: pain, infection, skin pigment changes, loss of fatty tissue, and tendon rupture.

shinyhelmut

As I understand it it wasn't a high cortisone finding but low cortisol, which can be a sign of cortisone abuse but can equally be a sign of overtraining or illness, hence the 8 day suspension and not a longer ban.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/14747/MPCC-doctor-Megret-denies-giving-green-light-to-Pierre-Rolland-after-irregular-cortisol-levels-detected.aspx

zammmmo

RimTape wrote:

So what performance advantage does cortisone abuse provide?

Better recovery I believe.

That's right. Corticosteroids (cortisone) dampen down inflammation. Whether this affects cortisol levels in the body I don't know. As an aside, long term use *I suspect* will inhibit one's own immune system function e.g. white blood cell levels.

I've never been able to get a straight answer as to whether cortisol has been administered. This is a substance which essentially is present in elevated levels in the overtrained/stressed person. Quite why you'd want to add to this I'm unsure - the only indication I've ever seen of how this might benefit was in David Millar's book where IIRC he inferred it was useful for weight loss and it's essentially helping the body to be broken down. Can anyone clarify?

jimmythecuckoo

Seems perhaps their desperation to secure sponsorship has led to some poor decisions in the team car and out on the road.

Richmond Racer

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Seems perhaps their desperation to secure sponsorship has led to some poor decisions in the team car and out on the road.

Maybe, with regard to Rolland continuing the Dauphine.

Re issues with cortisone, its not the first time the team's been linked to an issue. As well as Charteau last year, just before the Tour it was announced the team were going to be investigated for cortisone abuse - though to be fair, nothing came of it.

INRNG has just published a lengthy post
http://inrng.com/2013/06/mpcc-cortisol-test/


From a twitter dialogue between Daniel Friebe and Jeremy Whittle yesterday, there seems to be a view that French/Belgian teams dont treat controls around cortisone seriously:

Daniel Friebe @friebos 23h
The notion that cortisone abuse is 'light' doping or somehow OK is nonsense and needs to be dispelled.

Jeremy Whittle @jeremycwhittle 22h
@friebos That seems to be a particularly Franco-Belgian school of thought. Just what French cycling needs right now....

jimmythecuckoo

Time to close that loophole then and make an example out of the team. Albeit with the likely outcome that they close.

inkyfingers

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Time to close that loophole then and make an example out of the team. Albeit with the likely outcome that they close.

That would be harsh, but unfortunately probably the best option for the long term. If what they've done (and I have to confess to not understanding precisely what that is) is against the rules then zero tolerance is the only option.

The more stories there are like this, the harder it will be for any teams to get sponsorship.

Tom Butcher

So apparently these tests are part of a voluntary agreement which not all teams are part of - including Sky and BMC?

Seems a bit harsh to want to make an example of the team on that basis. The sport needs successful French teams - if there is some kind of systematic doping going on of course that has to be dealt with but no need to go over the top yet for what may have been a disagreement or misunderstanding about correct procedures and a genuine case of a health check showing up a health rather an doping problem.

jimmythecuckoo

If Sky and BMC are not conforming to any sort of test that could give the impressive of a tolerance of artificial performance enhancement I would suggest they are brought into line as well...

Mad_Malx

I'd say no direct effect on performance. Cortisone is synthetic and converted by the body to cortisol. This is anti-inflammatory, so will reduce eg joint swelling and pain to allow the athelete to continue competing when injured, although they really should be putting their feet up. Short term use might not be a problem, but can lead to increased tissue injury. The banning is pricipally (I think) to protect the atheletes' health. I doubt that any athelete would use often enough to result in the more serious side effects - immunosuppression, muscle wasting ..... seen in patients using corticosteroids for chronic autoimmune diseases.

Giving cortisone or other synthetic corticosteroids (eg prednisone) leads to supression of cortisol synthesis by the body. It is unlikely that occaisional use of corticosteroids will have much effect on natural cortisol levels, so if levels are supressed then it suggests repeated use (then withdrawral).

Corticosteroids (the whole group of compounds) also have effects on kidney function that I can't describe in lay terms and haven't got my head round whether there might be masking effects, but I doubt this.

Don't confuse corticosteroids with the androgens (testosterone, nandralone) which are anabolic (build up muscle) and require energy. Corticosteroids are catabolic (break down tissues), but not really much use as a means of providing more energy.

At least I can pretend I'm working while typing this.

BR 1979

^ Thanks for the informative post.

disgruntledgoat

Isn't painkilling use of Cortisone legal in just about every sport out there?

Pross

Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!

frenchfighter

David Millar ‏@millarmind 1h
More importantly it might make those who abuse the TUE system to think twice.

It would make sense the race doctor knows what medical issues the riders they're responsible for have would it not?

Dear ASO + RCS, why don't you ask all teams to supply their riders TUE's (if they have them) to the race doctor?

Richmond Racer

Pross wrote:

Yep, you often hear footballers / rugby players / cricketers have had a cortisone injection to enable them to compete and it has been used in American sport for years often to the detriment of the sportsman's long term career as the reason we feel pain is generally to remind us not to push an injury any further!

My personal fave is tennis players getting a mid-match injection to enable them to continue