Cavendish - best sportsman in the world?

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  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,964
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Marianne Vos.

    She's good. But she's not the best sportsman in the world. :wink:
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    If a sprinter can be 'best sportsman of the world' that's a god damn easy way to be it. I can't even begin to describe how much more an effort 80% of the riders in the peloton do throughout a GT than the sprinters.
    If it's so easy, why don't those 80% of riders making all that effort do it?
    I mean why do they do all that slogging around the course with no personal glory and lower pay when it's really, really easy just to pop up and win five stages. They must be thick.

    Because they are busy pacing the greatest sportsman 199.8 km out of 200km..

    Cavendish only has 8 team mates at the start of a grand tour. That's less than 5% of a peloton. If sheltering in a bunch makes things so much easier, why does he beat the other 95% (who, on a flat stage also spend the entire day hiding) so often?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,176
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    If a sprinter can be 'best sportsman of the world' that's a god damn easy way to be it. I can't even begin to describe how much more an effort 80% of the riders in the peloton do throughout a GT than the sprinters.
    If it's so easy, why don't those 80% of riders making all that effort do it?
    I mean why do they do all that slogging around the course with no personal glory and lower pay when it's really, really easy just to pop up and win five stages. They must be thick.

    Because they are busy pacing the greatest sportsman 199.8 km out of 200km..
    Why don't they all go to other teams instead then? It would, according to you, be much easier to win lots of stages rather than doing all that pacing - and they would get paid more too.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    If a sprinter can be 'best sportsman of the world' that's a god damn easy way to be it. I can't even begin to describe how much more an effort 80% of the riders in the peloton do throughout a GT than the sprinters.
    If it's so easy, why don't those 80% of riders making all that effort do it?
    I mean why do they do all that slogging around the course with no personal glory and lower pay when it's really, really easy just to pop up and win five stages. They must be thick.

    Because they are busy pacing the greatest sportsman 199.8 km out of 200km..

    I used to think sprinters had it easy and had a lot of glory for so little effort. I still think that is the case but to a much lesser extent. They impress me a lot at times and the balls and skill they show at the end is unreal.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Oh, Definitely. And Cav impresses me alot. The man is brilliant at what he does. This is a case of my criteria of 'best sportsman' being different than yours, I guess. I have Cav as number one sprinter in the world but not even a top 20 cyclist. Sprint victories are cheap in comparison to every other way of stage wins - or what? Did Nibali had to win 5 victories to be as good Cav in this Giro?! Would that be fair? Of course not. What Nibali did in this Giro was far superior to what Cav did. Don't know what that makes Nibali if Cav is the best sportsman in the world.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,176
    ThomThom wrote:
    I have Cav as number one sprinter in the world but not even a top 20 cyclist.
    If you really think he's not in the top 20 cyclists, then you're an idiot.

    Go on - name twenty better.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    My dislike of Cavendish is well known, but he's easily in the top 3 overall at the moment. I cannot think of anyone who is better at what they do in sport today, he's a complete phenomenon.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I have Cav as number one sprinter in the world but not even a top 20 cyclist.
    If you really think he's not in the top 20 cyclists, then you're an idiot.

    Go on - name twenty better.

    Well, how far do we go back on the respective rider's palmares?

    I'm going to ask again. Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he won 3 more victories?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,176
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I have Cav as number one sprinter in the world but not even a top 20 cyclist.
    If you really think he's not in the top 20 cyclists, then you're an idiot.

    Go on - name twenty better.

    Well, how far do we go back on the respective rider's palmares?

    I'm going to ask again. Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he won 3 more victories?

    No. Cavendish is a better rider because he is probably the best sprinter the sport has ever seen. Only five people in history have won more Grand Tour stages and only three have won more Tour de France stages. And he's only 28.
    By contrast, Nibali is just the latest in a long line of riders who have won and Grand Tour - there's nothing particularly outstanding about him in the history of the sport. Someone wins the Giro every year.

    Cavendish is probably the best at what he does in the history of the sport. Nibali isn't even the best that his team has had in the last five years.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    It is a bit of a stretch to claim that Mark Cavendish is the "Best Sportsman in the World". He is without doubt the best sprinter of his generation. At the end of his career, it will be possible to judge whether or not he is the greatest sprinter the sport has ever seen.

    It can be argued that the rider who wins this year's Tour De France will be the rider who delivers the best overall sporting and athletic performance of the season. The sprinters only truly race on the stages assessed to be sprinter's stages. They are under far less mental strain on all the other stages. The guys in contention for the overall win have to be switched on for every minute of the race. They have to constantly ride to ensure no lose of time. That's three weeks of huge psychological pressure.

    Bradley Wiggins' results from last year probably constitute the greatest sporting performance by a cyclist for many years.

    DD.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,964
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    It is a bit of a stretch to claim that Mark Cavendish is the "Best Sportsman in the World"..


    He's probably the winningest though.


    I can't think of a current sportsman to compare him to in terms of his reliability in delivering results. Maybe Bolt, but then I only watch him run twice every 4 years

    Best comparison is Tiger Woods in his prime.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,176
    Dolan Driver wrote:

    It can be argued that the rider who wins this year's Tour De France will be the rider who delivers the best overall sporting and athletic performance of the season. The sprinters only truly race on the stages assessed to be sprinter's stages. They are under far less mental strain on all the other stages. The guys in contention for the overall win have to be switched on for every minute of the race. They have to constantly ride to ensure no lose of time. That's three weeks of huge psychological pressure.

    Sorry, but that's b0ll0cks.

    In the mountain stages the sprinters are a long way out of their comfort zone - they aren't ambling along like tourists. They are no having a day off.
    On the flat stages the GC guys need to keep out of trouble near the front and look out fr crashes - but so does everyone else. Relatively, it's a much easier day for them.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Walter White
    Walter White Posts: 238
    The name Mark Cavendish will forever be remembered in cycling, can't say for certain any other cyclist of this generation will be.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,964
    How is Cavendish viewed by fans in the likes of Belgium or Italy?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I have Cav as number one sprinter in the world but not even a top 20 cyclist.
    If you really think he's not in the top 20 cyclists, then you're an idiot.

    Go on - name twenty better.

    Well, how far do we go back on the respective rider's palmares?

    I'm going to ask again. Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he won 3 more victories?

    No. Cavendish is a better rider because he is probably the best sprinter the sport has ever seen. Only five people in history have won more Grand Tour stages and only three have won more Tour de France stages. And he's only 28.
    By contrast, Nibali is just the latest in a long line of riders who have won and Grand Tour - there's nothing particularly outstanding about him in the history of the sport. Someone wins the Giro every year.

    Cavendish is probably the best at what he does in the history of the sport. Nibali isn't even the best that his team has had in the last five years.


    Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he had 3 more victories? It's a very simple question.
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,786
    But it's not about just this Giro....
    http://cyclinganddesign.blogspot.fr/
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,176
    ThomThom wrote:

    Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he had 3 more victories? It's a very simple question.
    They're not really comparable. Cavendish had five chances and won every single one. Nibali didn't, but on balance a GC win and two stages is probably has greater status than a points jersey and five stages. But if you are considering a riders' relative standing in the sport and sport as a whole on the basis of one race then you're being wilfully dumb. No-one was claiming Degenkolb was one of the greats last Vuelta.

    From 2008 onwards, Cavendish has done 12 Grand Tours and has been the best sprinter in 11 of them (the other he abandoned in the first week).

    Now, I've answered your question, can you offer us these 20 riders who are better than Cavendish so we can all have a laugh.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:

    It can be argued that the rider who wins this year's Tour De France will be the rider who delivers the best overall sporting and athletic performance of the season. The sprinters only truly race on the stages assessed to be sprinter's stages. They are under far less mental strain on all the other stages. The guys in contention for the overall win have to be switched on for every minute of the race. They have to constantly ride to ensure no lose of time. That's three weeks of huge psychological pressure.

    Sorry, but that's b0ll0cks.

    It's not, actually. It is just an opinion that differs from the one held by yourself.

    DD.
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    One thing that I'm pondering is...

    Lots of forumites are saying that Nibali had it pretty easy, and had no real opposition. Few people seem to have noticed that Cav's main rivals weren't at the start of the Giro...

    Is it because Cav is regarded as so far ahead of his rivals, that their presence has a negligible effect on how we see Cav's victories...
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    I have Cav as number one sprinter in the world but not even a top 20 cyclist.
    If you really think he's not in the top 20 cyclists, then you're an idiot.

    Go on - name twenty better.

    Well, how far do we go back on the respective rider's palmares?

    I'm going to ask again. Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he won 3 more victories?

    No. Cavendish is a better rider because he is probably the best sprinter the sport has ever seen. Only five people in history have won more Grand Tour stages and only three have won more Tour de France stages. And he's only 28.
    By contrast, Nibali is just the latest in a long line of riders who have won and Grand Tour - there's nothing particularly outstanding about him in the history of the sport. Someone wins the Giro every year.

    Cavendish is probably the best at what he does in the history of the sport. Nibali isn't even the best that his team has had in the last five years.


    Was Cav a better rider than Nibali in this Giro because he had 3 more victories? It's a very simple question.

    Well Cav is a specialist sprinter, he had 5 chances to win and won all 5. Nibs is a specialist climber, is he not, not sure how many mountain top finishes there were but I am sure he did not win all of them. So by that parameter Cav was better in the Giro than Nibs. Statistics, meh.
    After all, this is what the claim was based on, the sporting speciality.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,405
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:

    It can be argued that the rider who wins this year's Tour De France will be the rider who delivers the best overall sporting and athletic performance of the season. The sprinters only truly race on the stages assessed to be sprinter's stages. They are under far less mental strain on all the other stages. The guys in contention for the overall win have to be switched on for every minute of the race. They have to constantly ride to ensure no lose of time. That's three weeks of huge psychological pressure.

    Sorry, but that's b0ll0cks.

    It's not, actually. It is just an opinion that differs from the one held by yourself.

    DD.

    Unfortunately your opinion differs from the vast majority of other peoples as well...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • B3rnieMac
    B3rnieMac Posts: 384
    ThomThom wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    If a sprinter can be 'best sportsman of the world' that's a god damn easy way to be it. I can't even begin to describe how much more an effort 80% of the riders in the peloton do throughout a GT than the sprinters.
    If it's so easy, why don't those 80% of riders making all that effort do it?
    I mean why do they do all that slogging around the course with no personal glory and lower pay when it's really, really easy just to pop up and win five stages. They must be thick.

    Because they are busy pacing the greatest sportsman 199.8 km out of 200km..


    May I direct you to the career of Mark Renshaw.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    Walter White wrote:
    The name Mark Cavendish will forever be remembered in cycling, can't say for certain any other cyclist of this generation will be.

    Wouter Weylandt, Riccardo Ricco etc.
  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    ddraver wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:

    It can be argued that the rider who wins this year's Tour De France will be the rider who delivers the best overall sporting and athletic performance of the season. The sprinters only truly race on the stages assessed to be sprinter's stages. They are under far less mental strain on all the other stages. The guys in contention for the overall win have to be switched on for every minute of the race. They have to constantly ride to ensure no lose of time. That's three weeks of huge psychological pressure.

    Sorry, but that's b0ll0cks.

    It's not, actually. It is just an opinion that differs from the one held by yourself.

    DD.

    Unfortunately your opinion differs from the vast majority of other peoples as well...

    Why is it unfortunate that my opinion differs from some here on this topic? This thread would be pointless if everyone had the very same view of Mark Cavendish. Some will think Cavendish is the best cyclist on the planet, others might not. Those who think not may well be in the minority but they are entitled to express their opinion, nonetheless.

    DD.
  • Xherdan
    Xherdan Posts: 48
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    It is a bit of a stretch to claim that Mark Cavendish is the "Best Sportsman in the World"..


    He's probably the winningest though.


    I can't think of a current sportsman to compare him to in terms of his reliability in delivering results. Maybe Bolt, but then I only watch him run twice every 4 years

    Best comparison is Tiger Woods in his prime.
    That's the point isn't it. Best as in "winningest" not most physically fit, fastest, most accurate thrower/kicker or any combination. Just who wins most. You can probably find the answer by looking at bookies odds. The only real question is whether the level of Bolt's competitors is equivalent to that of Cavendish and vice versa. One could win more but face less competition due to a current dearth of talent in that sport. Similar to how in football a Scottish or Dutch league title or top goalscorer is rated less highly than in England/Spain/Germany/Italy.
  • jawooga
    jawooga Posts: 530
    I don't think winningest can be the only criteria else you preclude any participant of team sport on account of it not being their sole victories. It may be a lazy shout, but i don't think you can look far past Messi as someone who almost guarantees victory and someone who is regarded as in the top 3 players ever in the worlds most widely spread and popular sport.

    Cavendish is obviously class though.
  • Lichtblick
    Lichtblick Posts: 1,434
    Hasn't anyone mentioned Sagan in this thread?

    Won the Green Jersey in last year's Tour at his first attempt IIRC.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,405
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dolan Driver wrote:

    It can be argued that the rider who wins this year's Tour De France will be the rider who delivers the best overall sporting and athletic performance of the season. The sprinters only truly race on the stages assessed to be sprinter's stages. They are under far less mental strain on all the other stages. The guys in contention for the overall win have to be switched on for every minute of the race. They have to constantly ride to ensure no lose of time. That's three weeks of huge psychological pressure.

    Sorry, but that's b0ll0cks.

    It's not, actually. It is just an opinion that differs from the one held by yourself.

    DD.

    Unfortunately your opinion differs from the vast majority of other peoples as well...

    Why is it unfortunate that my opinion differs from some here on this topic? This thread would be pointless if everyone had the very same view of Mark Cavendish. Some will think Cavendish is the best cyclist on the planet, others might not. Those who think not may well be in the minority but they are entitled to express their opinion, nonetheless.

    DD.

    Depends if you think opinions should have some basis in fact to be valid or not. but whatever...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Lichtblick wrote:
    Hasn't anyone mentioned Sagan in this thread?

    Won the Green Jersey in last year's Tour at his first attempt IIRC.
    Well that's because he's not really relevant to this discussion... he's had some good results and did well in the TdF last year, but a single green jersey proves nothing about his chances of (eventually) becoming a rival to Cavendish in terms of sustained top level success. If he keeps winning stages and points jerseys for the next 5 years then we can start to compare the two.
  • Matt_as
    Matt_as Posts: 84
    Cav is only a sprinter but im my opinion it probably took more mental effort and willpower for him to stay in the Giro 'til the end to win the points jersey than it took fo Nibali to take the overall. After 4 stage wins how easy would it have been for Cav to have thought it easier to go home with his 4 stages than to drag himself through the last weeks tough mountain stages and weather to go for more and try and keep hold of the points jersey.

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