Improving 1min power?

markwb79

I have been looking at the below link/table and seeing where i fit and where I can maybe improve.

For my size/weight, I am happy (ish) with my FTP. Here are how my number are based on the table:

FTP - 4.5 - Middle of Cat 2
5min - 5.2 - just below middle of Cat 2
1min - 6.4 - bottom of cat 5
5sec - 14.7 - middle of cat 4

I have a very wide range of goals, main ones are mountain cyclo's and the odd hilly road race when I get to them in Belgium.

I use crits for training because there are lots where I live. I do want to improve this part, looking at the numbers above, my short power is where I can lacking.

What work outs are good to use for this?
Is it something like 8x1min intervals to work on my anaerobic power?
(I live in Holland so cant do hill repeats!)

Thanks
Mark

ric/rstsport

just to clarify, if this is the table designed by Andy Coggan then it's important to realise all these metrics belong to the best in class. That is, while the best FTP is done by endurance riders (such as top end road riders - i think the FTP is based on the world hour record that boardman did in the superman position) the best 5sec and 1min powers will have been done by the best 200m or bmx riders and the best 1-min by kilo riders. that is, you as an endurance type rider may not expect to be as high with the shorter efforts as compared to the longer efforts.

that said, your 1-min power is somewhat low. was this a true maximal all-out 1-min effort or just the best 1-min you've done (which could be different things).

your 5-sec power is neither good, nor bad. it's higher than mine (!) and higher than some euro pros (at world tour level). but it's less than cavendish etc.

Meh! there's plenty of hills in Holland if you know where to look ;-).

Do some hard efforts over 30-secs to 60-secs. they needn't be on hills!

ric

Setarkos

Considering your main goals don't require good short term power, it may not be feasible to focus on it too much. You can only have a certain mix of slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fibers and it is no coincidence that even light sprinters are not good uphill and most climbers aren't good sprinters.

However, as Ric said, your 1min power seems a bit low. Can you look at that interval? Was it paced evenly? Even within a minute you can fade after 30s. What was your cadence?
Your 5min power suggests a decent anaerobic capacity, which suggests that your 1min power should be higher. 5s is mainly neuromuscular.
I reckon you could do about 7-7.5W/kg but that's highly speculative...:)

If you want to train your 1min-max make sure your rest intervals are long enough. If you want to train for crits specifically, make them shorter.

markwb79

Thanks both of you.

Thanks for the explanation of the table, I suspected it was a bit like that. I have found it a good gauge to understand by abilities, and now also where i can improve.

Your right, there are the odd hills. Now thinking about it, I know one that is exactly a minute!

7.5w/kg is a long way off I think. I have looked, I did fade. Started at ~7.1, dropping to around ~5.9 in the second half.

Just because of the ride I know I am, I know I cant compete at a higher level on the racing I do here. Which is part of a challenge and why I still do them.

jibberjim

UK racing is heavily influenced by 1 minute power (and its repeatability), and I suspect Belgian "hilly" races are similar, so I'm not completely sure it isn't relevant for your goals)

1 minute power work requires very large rest intervals between efforts. I'd go for something like 45-60sec intervals with at least 5 minutes recovery in between possibly more. But I also very much doubt that you have actually done a max 1 minute effort to appear appropriately on the chart - not that it's really very accurate anyway.

Setarkos

Markwb79 wrote:

7.5w/kg is a long way off I think. I have looked, I did fade. Started at ~7.1, dropping to around ~5.9 in the second half.

Warm up well; whatever works for you eg. a few 5-8s bursts (not that essential though) and then pace as follows:
- start at 6,5W/kg for 30s then up to 7W/kg and go for it in the last 15s.
- make sure your cadence stays reasonable, I'd say 85-105
- try to make sure you start the interval reasonably steady - don't sprint off at the start.
The difference between your CP5 and FTP suggests that you should be able to produce 7W/kg or more but especially for short durations it also takes some practice to get close to your actual limit.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

- start at 6,5W/kg for 30s then up to 7W/kg and go for it in the last 15s.
- make sure your cadence stays reasonable, I'd say 85-105

For me to get anywhere near my 9w/kg 1minute I need to do the first 20s at 12+ w/kg ! I can only get that high by using my phosphocreatine effort at close to max. If I start below I just stay at the same the whole way through and no higher than if I don't.

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

For me to get anywhere near my 9w/kg 1minute I need to do the first 20s at 12+ w/kg ! I can only get that high by using my phosphocreatine effort at close to max. If I start below I just stay at the same the whole way through and no higher than if I don't.

Doesn't really make sense from a physiological point of view. You should be able to use your creatine kinase at the end of an interval as well. In a race effort you'd want to use some initially and some at the end - similar for a track kilo - probably a bit more at the beginning to get up to speed.

But then again, you seem to be an exception to everything I write.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

Doesn't really make sense from a physiological point of view. You should be able to use your creatine kinase at the end of an interval as well.

My understanding was utilising the other energy systems suprressed CK production so you couldn't necessarily use it at the end of an interval? Although I suspect from different people that it's also influenced by how many other fibres you have left to recruit, and if you've plenty then it can be spread out.

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

My understanding was utilising the other energy systems suprressed CK production so you couldn't necessarily use it at the end of an interval? Although I suspect from different people that it's also influenced by how many other fibres you have left to recruit, and if you've plenty then it can be spread out.

Let me get back to you on that.

Edit: Can you quote a source for that? I couldn't find anything.
Given that phosphocreatine only puffers energy supply for a few seconds, my opinion is that the danger of overcooking is higher if you start with a sprint and I can't find anything that suggests it would be disadvantageous to try and keep it till the end.

Herbsman

How do you know exactly which systems you're using when you're pedaling?! :-s

Setarkos

Herbsman wrote:

How do you know exactly which systems you're using when you're pedaling?! :-s

You don't know exactly but the intensity is a good indicator. A lot about setting training zones is targeting certain energy/metabolic systems.

Herbsman

It's just the way it's written, it reads as if you can just choose to chuck some phosphocreatine into the effort!

Setarkos

Herbsman wrote:

It's just the way it's written, it reads as if you can just choose to chuck some phosphocreatine into the effort!

Well, I think we both specified what we meant in terms of intensity and pacing...

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

Edit: Can you quote a source for that? I couldn't find anything.
Given that phosphocreatine only puffers energy supply for a few seconds, my opinion is that the danger of overcooking is higher if you start with a sprint and I can't find anything that suggests it would be disadvantageous to try and keep it till the end.

I can't find much to back up my thoughts... either my searching is weak or it's poorly studied, however:

See the Why the energy production rules change after just two minutes part.

"To understand the error of your ways, you simply need to remember that the rules we have established so far (in which the phosphagen system controls exercise lasting 10 seconds or less, glycolysis controls exercise lasting 10-120 seconds and the aerobic pathway dominates anything longer) apply when the exercise begins from a relatively quiescent physiological state."

"You can also forget about the phosphagen system, which gave up the ghost after just 10 seconds of your ride."

So there is some... However the main reason I said it was experience, I know I can do 1000w at will from <100w and generally sustain it for 15-20 seconds, but despite having a jump from 300w (well over 90 minute power) on which can tend to drop/gap a lot so presumably not too bad, it's never more than 700-800 and only sustain 700 for those same 15-20 seconds. If I really had the pCr at hand - why wouldn't I use it?

As we know, I'm not the same as everyone else, but equally I'm sure I'm not unique either!

Herbsman - we can't know, we can just suppose, but we do know that in the first few seconds of any activity at pretty much any intensity we're using phosphagen, as nothing else can be used.

Setarkos

We're all unique!

The text you linked draws very sharp lines between the metabolic systems whereas in reality it is of course always a mix. If glycolysis was responsible for everything 10-120s then I would produce the same power over 1min and 2min as long as I do a 10s sprint right before that I don't include in the interval.

I couldn't find anything specific for 1min efforts but I found this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9252454). This at least shows that PCr is used at submaximal intensity so can't be inhibited. Whether that's also the case above VO2max with glycolysis contributing, I couldn't find a study supporting or opposing that claim.

I think that for most people (at least for me and those I asked), if they sprint off at the beginning and empty their PCr stores completely they have difficulty completing the 1min interval at the intensity they could otherwise.
After all glycolysis duration goes up to 120s so PCr has to play a significant role in 1min performance. If you burn that off right away then glycolysis can't provide enough energy - only speculating though.

Fair enough though. Regarding your own capabilities, your own experience trumps all theory of course.
I checked with a few people and they all said they do worse when they sprint in the beginning.

But I have to admit that I can't back my theory up to the extent I thought I could
For the topic of discussion it is probably easiest for everyone to try out different pacing strategies and see for themselves, what works best for them. I'll try your strategy next time

Edit: One more thought: PCr serves as an H+ buffer in the muscle, thus allowing for a higher concentration of lactic acid before a critical pH is attained which should aid anaerobic glycolysis.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

Edit: One more thought: PCr serves as an H+ buffer in the muscle, thus allowing for a higher concentration of lactic acid before a critical pH is attained which should aid anaerobic glycolysis.

So that's an interesting fact... I believe I am extremely reluctant to have any sort of significant H+ build up, my central governor calls things off quickly when I do - I never experience the "burning legs" people talk about. So perhaps the sprint is actually just generating a large buffer...

Having looked at my power curves for pre and post Otter (nearly 2) it's clear I've become even more averse since then, as between 20s and 7minutes I'm down on power and well down on the 1-2 minute range, but elsewhere I'm at least matching it (despite much lower volume) and I think that is probably a lot due to lack of willingness to make the effort.

jibberjim

So here's my best ever ~2:15 530watts
http://app.strava.com/activities/203634#z4382|4521
starts with 18sec at 833
and here's another max effort just 1:37 and 514watts
http://app.strava.com/activities/491969#7467305
so when I had the "sprint" at the end of the effort - caused by the terrain - I only managed 17s at 700watts, and was completely spent. Front loading that "sprint" is worth a lot to me in total watts over the duration.

Tom Dean

jibberjim wrote:

1 minute power work requires very large rest intervals between efforts. I'd go for something like 45-60sec intervals with at least 5 minutes recovery in between possibly more. But I also very much doubt that you have actually done a max 1 minute effort to appear appropriately on the chart - not that it's really very accurate anyway.

I'd be interested to hear any other thoughts on rest period durations for these type of effort. Jim I guess you are aiming to maximise power in every interval with such a long recovery. None of the AC workouts in Allen & Coggan recommends anything like this long. I have recently been doing 1min on/1min off and 2on/5off (although this is limited by the terrain)

Chebrikov

For kilo or match sprint you would need a very long recovery due to the intensity of the efforts to make them worth while.

For road races or longer track events repeated one minute efforts with short rests.

For time trials, is there really much benefit in one minute intervals?

Setarkos

Chebrikov wrote:

For time trials, is there really much benefit in one minute intervals?

Not as an L6 workout but as a VO2max session.
For example, 20x 1'@130% 2'@70% and there are similar ones - commonly referred to as High Intensity (Interval) Training (HIT) which has shown in several studies to improve VO2max and FTP.

Chebrikov

Setarkos wrote:

Chebrikov wrote:

For time trials, is there really much benefit in one minute intervals?

Not as an L6 workout but as a VO2max session.
For example, 20x 1'@130% 2'@70% and there are similar ones - commonly referred to as High Intensity (Interval) Training (HIT) which has shown in several studies to improve VO2max and FTP.

Several studies? That many? Were they randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover studies? Sample size? Well trained or elite etc etc?

Setarkos

Chebrikov wrote:

Several studies? That many? Were they randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover studies? Sample size? Well trained or elite etc etc?

Laursen et al have probably published the most on it. Have a google.

Here are a few:

markwb79

Thanks again for all the replies. Some very, very scientific things!

I hope to test tonight.

But for improving it. I was planning to do 10 x 1min intervals @ ~140% of FTP? Or is max 1min better and stop when the average drops by 10%?

Thanks again.

Chebrikov

Setarkos wrote:

Chebrikov wrote:

Several studies? That many? Were they randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover studies? Sample size? Well trained or elite etc etc?

Laursen et al have probably published the most on it. Have a google.

Here are a few:

I'm not impressed by the quality of those studies for the reasons mentioned above. But I'm aware that it is not easy to put together good studies with limited budgets so I'm not personally criticising those who did the studies.

Not to say there is no value in doing short hard intervals. It is a question of when, how much and how often and instead of what.

Tom Dean

Markwb79 wrote:

But for improving it. I was planning to do 10 x 1min intervals @ ~140% of FTP? Or is max 1min better and stop when the average drops by 10%?

If you really aim for a max effort you might not get within 10% in the second interval! 140% is in the right area to start with.

amaferanga

Markwb79 wrote:

Thanks again for all the replies. Some very, very scientific things!

I hope to test tonight.

But for improving it. I was planning to do 10 x 1min intervals @ ~140% of FTP? Or is max 1min better and stop when the average drops by 10%?

Thanks again.

In your first post you said that your all time best 1min was 6.5W/kg, but now you're planning on doing 10x1min at 6.3W/kg (based on your ftp of 4.5W/kg). So I'd suggest that either your 1min best is nowhere near your actual capabilities or you've got zero chance of doing your session at 140% FTP!

markwb79

amaferanga wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

Thanks again for all the replies. Some very, very scientific things!

I hope to test tonight.

But for improving it. I was planning to do 10 x 1min intervals @ ~140% of FTP? Or is max 1min better and stop when the average drops by 10%?

Thanks again.

In your first post you said that your all time best 1min was 6.5W/kg, but now you're planning on doing 10x1min at 6.3W/kg (based on your ftp of 4.5W/kg). So I'd suggest that either your 1min best is nowhere near your actual capabilities or you've got zero chance of doing your session at 140% FTP!

Hence why I asked! I was 'hoping' that all the comments and assumptions that was 1min wasnt my true 1min max.

Cheers.

amaferanga

Why not go find a suitable hill (nice gentle drag), do a few warm-up intervals at say 120-130% FTP and then go for it and see what you can actually do? You'll probably be surprised.

Setarkos

Chebrikov wrote:

I'm not impressed by the quality of those studies for the reasons mentioned above. But I'm aware that it is not easy to put together good studies with limited budgets so I'm not personally criticising those who did the studies.

Not to say there is no value in doing short hard intervals. It is a question of when, how much and how often and instead of what.

Oh, I fully agree.
I haven't read through all the studies that I posted above but I know that in many HIT studies the improvements were statistically significant. That's not to say they are the one and only training form but they are not useless and they can definitely make sense in a training plan.

markwb79

I take it all back! Although I havent tested properly this evening, I was able to raise my 1 min power.

Proper test at the weekend hopefully.