the nhs
Comments
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Facts in Britain are often known as "Spin"
There are plenty of second and third generation unemployed, it depends where the reviews and studies are carried out.
Im not saying it is a extremely high percentage but it is there, it is fact and it is going to get worse as people only learn from within their own community so if the people around them dont work then the likelihood is that they wont.
Im shocked that anyone would honestly think or believe that benefit fraud and people not wanting to work isnt widespread
to believe otherwise is yet another confirmation of blinkered views of the british.
Benefit fraud is huge, it just depends on how you calculate.
Some would argue that if your not working then you are entitled to it.
I would suggest that if you were able to do a job and one was available yet you didnt want to do it because it didnt match your previous work but the employer was willing to have you onboard then you are committing benefit fraud because you are claiming when you dont need too and others need that money more than you.
We are a lazy nation, why did we get an influx of polish ? did they and other EU people come here to take our jobs ?
They came here because on the whole, so many people here didn't want them so they were never theirs to lose.
@mountainmonster, you mention that you had to spend a year and a half getting a project up and running, does anyone actually think that if, as a whole we all worked like this we would be in such a mess ?
Of course we wouldnt.
We thrived in the industrial revolution, we became world class and got to the point where people truly believed they were owed a living. Its the british way.
We are owed nothing, if we can work we should.
If we can pay, we should.
If we can help, we should.
Its easy for doctors to say they have too much work on at the A&E dept and suggest that they have only a small time to see patients. It is for this that I am so against the take take society.
My son was looked after so well in november after being diagnosed and they couldnt have done more but what about my grandkids ? If im ever blessed with them what will be their options ?
The NHS can't/won't be able to be as it is in 2030 !Living MY dream.0 -
Told you facts wouldn't have any impact.0
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VTech wrote:Facts in Britain are often known as "Spin"
There are plenty of second and third generation unemployed, it depends where the reviews and studies are carried out.
Im not saying it is a extremely high percentage but it is there, it is fact and it is going to get worse as people only learn from within their own community so if the people around them dont work then the likelihood is that they wont.
Im shocked that anyone would honestly think or believe that benefit fraud and people not wanting to work isnt widespread to believe otherwise is yet another confirmation of blinkered views of the british.
Benefit fraud is huge, it just depends on how you calculate.
You don't quite seem to have got the hang of this facts thing. Simply saying it's a fact doesn't actually make it so.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/factDefinition of fact
noun
a thing that is known or proved to be true
So facts are "spin", but only if they happen to contradict your opinion. Your opinion is "fact", but you don't actually have anything to substantiate it. I think you're getting yourself a little confused
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_fr ... efit_fraudA poll conducted by the Trades Union Congress in 2012 found that perceptions among the British public were that benefit fraud was high - on average people thought that 27% of the British welfare budget is claimed fraudulently;[4] however, official UK Government figures have stated that the proportion of fraud stands at 0.7% of the total welfare budget in 2011/12.[5]
http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/i ... raud_errorThe latest report estimates fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain.
For 2012/13 (preliminary) it is estimated that 2.1 per cent of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2011/12 estimate.
The estimated value of overpayments is £3.5bn, which is a rise from the 2011/12 estimated value of £3.4bn.
For 2012/13 (preliminary) it is estimated that 0.9 per cent of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error, which is a rise from the 2011/12 estimate (0.8 per cent).
The estimated value of underpayments is £1.4bn, which is a rise from the 2011/12 estimated value of £1.3bn.
And you think my views are blinkered? I'd love it if you could actually substantiate your views with anything other than wild conjecture (without resorting to The Daily Mail, preferably). 0 -
also fat obese people should be sent to boot cavmp until they are normal weight before receiving any free treatment.0
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Vtech,
part of the causes of the problems we are having now are the reluctance to do things because of possible failure, which although can be a genuine worry, often complicates things more than necessary, and leads to things staying the same. It would have taken 6 months to get our project launched either in Europe, or the US, but the mindset here of "if it could possibly have a problem it is not worth pursuing" is very detrimental to getting things done. This is also why there are so many other failed programmes across the UK because people chose to focus all their effort on stopping something rather than looking for solutions to the problem, or learning how to make it work through stressing the good points and learning from either small mistakes or case studies from other initiatives.
This mindset unfortunately only exists in the UK. It is depressing when I, as a 23 year old man, must tell stakeholders of large corporations to simply get on with things and get the ball rolling and the problems will fix themselves in time. These are highly respected members of their business communities, and these things would not need to be said elsewhere.
I still remember one meeting about 6 months ago where the project had a roughly 85% chance of success in its most perfect form, but every single British person sitting at the table only focused on the 15% that could cause problems and tried stalling everything. Most of these issues would have sorted themselves out if rather than just thinking about why it won't work you think about ways to make it work, but that simply did not happen. We had to eventually get the ball rolling ourselves (my father and I) and take the risk ourselves to watch the programme move as everyone else was only causing headaches. The funny part is that now that the project is up and running, we have the same companies coming back to us wanting to get involved since it is a pioneer project.0 -
the playing mantis wrote:also fat obese people should be sent to boot cavmp until they are normal weight before receiving any free treatment.
With around 14m obese people in the UK - it's going to be an awfully big boot camp.0 -
ooermissus wrote:Told you facts wouldn't have any impact.
It is easy to fight facts with opinion. It is far more difficult to fight facts with facts.
-Spider-0 -
MountainMonster wrote:Vtech,
part of the causes of the problems we are having now are the reluctance to do things because of possible failure, which although can be a genuine worry, often complicates things more than necessary, and leads to things staying the same. It would have taken 6 months to get our project launched either in Europe, or the US, but the mindset here of "if it could possibly have a problem it is not worth pursuing" is very detrimental to getting things done. This is also why there are so many failed other programmes across the country because people chose to focus all their effort on stopping something rather than looking for solutions to the problem, or learning how to make it work through stressing the good points.
This mindset unfortunately only exists in the UK. It is depressing when I, as a 23 year old man, must tell stakeholders of large corporations to simply get on with things and get the ball rolling and the problems will fix themselves in time. These are highly respected members of their business communities, and these things would not need to be said elsewhere.
Im with you mate. :!:
I get the job done, im paid well to do that and get passion from making the impossible possible. I thrive on making things work.
I have worked since I was 11, part time, as a kid washing cars, cleaning gardens, golf caddying and all sorts, I worked unpaid weekends because I wanted to learn. Its done me well, maybe some luck but work pays in the end.
I never listen to the above about benefit fraud stats because its wrong IN MY OPINION because it is SPIN
I explained very well above.
If you dont work you are entitled to benefits, this is NOT CURRENTLY CLASSED AS FRAUD but if you really are able to work then of course THIS IS FRAUD so removing the spin that people put on it, the reality is that we do have huge fraud, unless of course we really do have millions out of work and no jobs for them. :?:Living MY dream.0 -
the playing mantis wrote:also fat obese people should be sent to boot cavmp until they are normal weight before receiving any free treatment.
So is that a blanket rule, or a pick and chose one again. What about the people who have serious health complications, which as a side effect cause increased weight gain, leading to them being obese? My mother is a good example of this, there is only one medicine that works well for her, and it slows her metabolism to snails pace. Even when she was running 10k a day she would gain weight.
Should she be sent to boot camp? Millions of people are like that.0 -
VTech wrote:MountainMonster wrote:Vtech,
part of the causes of the problems we are having now are the reluctance to do things because of possible failure, which although can be a genuine worry, often complicates things more than necessary, and leads to things staying the same. It would have taken 6 months to get our project launched either in Europe, or the US, but the mindset here of "if it could possibly have a problem it is not worth pursuing" is very detrimental to getting things done. This is also why there are so many failed other programmes across the country because people chose to focus all their effort on stopping something rather than looking for solutions to the problem, or learning how to make it work through stressing the good points.
This mindset unfortunately only exists in the UK. It is depressing when I, as a 23 year old man, must tell stakeholders of large corporations to simply get on with things and get the ball rolling and the problems will fix themselves in time. These are highly respected members of their business communities, and these things would not need to be said elsewhere.
Im with you mate. :!:
I get the job done, im paid well to do that and get passion from making the impossible possible. I thrive on making things work.
I have worked since I was 11, part time, as a kid washing cars, cleaning gardens, golf caddying and all sorts, I worked unpaid weekends because I wanted to learn. Its done me well, maybe some luck but work pays in the end.
I never listen to the above about benefit fraud stats because its wrong IN MY OPINION because it is SPIN
I explained very well above.
If you dont work you are entitled to benefits, this is NOT CURRENTLY CLASSED AS FRAUD but if you really are able to work then of course THIS IS FRAUD so removing the spin that people put on it, the reality is that we do have huge fraud, unless of course we really do have millions out of work and no jobs for them. :?:
One of the reasons the Benefits case facts can be very misleading is because it takes the spin of the organisation who is commissioning the study. In an organisation which is trying to show there are high number of benefit fraud cases the work commissioned will reflect, same as the ones saying benefit fraud is not a prominent item to discuss will show lower figures. We need a fully neutral 3rd party (not from UK) to come in and assess everything.
I am with Vtech on the fraud issue though. I know a few people who choose not to work because they know they will simply get money every month and they can sit at home watching telly. Under most reports this is not counted as fraud, even though at the roots it is. This person is making no effort to find jobs, no effort to bring in money (drug dealing does not count) and they are not paying taxes. This to me is fraud as they are able bodied and could work, but the choose not to. This does not fall in any categories of current reports, but it should, as this will show the true figures of fraud in the UK. I can think of at least 20 cases from old teenage buddies who I have since cut off just off the top of my head where this has happened, and i'm sure if I have a hunt around I can find more. Why are these people not included in the figures? It is simply because the definition of benefit fraud does not include this, but it should.
Also remember, these cases are just the ones from my old circle of friends, who I did not have very many of. Look at it on a Cambridge scale and the numbers multiply, then factor in national figures and the numbers will be astonishing.0 -
clearly not mountain monster (re you mum). i dispute that there are millions of fat people due to medical conditions other than greed and laziness and todays consumption based society. although muy post was tongue in cheek, such a scheme would obviously have medical exexmptions, which would be fairly easy and simple to police as its very easy to get medical exemption certs/docs be it for sport or work from gp's or indeed longterm prescriptions would be evidence enough.0
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Rigged wrote:VTech wrote:I honestly believe that the papers hold a lot of responsibility for the cynicism that so many people feel towards the state of Britain. They've propagated the false belief for so long that there's millions of people out there who have never worked, never want to, and will never have to. That benefit fraud is rife. That immigration and/or the EU is the cause of all these problems. All of these claims are largely unsubstantiated by any sort of research. Where research is used it's partially-quoted and taken out of context to deliver an entirely different conclusion to that of the research itself.
as much as like your avatar i disagree. a small minority gets there opinion/news from the print media nowadays (especially the gruniad). newspapers and their websites influence is increasingly limited, especially amongst the computer literate ages. id suggest the bbc and their kin are the prime source these days. the points you make are also dubios, look at the welfare bill. uncontrolled/unlimited immigration is clearly a problem for a small overcrowded island with finite resources. population growth always increases pressure on all other areas, infrastructure, education, welfare etc. if that population growth is mostly down to migration, rather than an increase in birth rate amongst the 'indigenous' population, clearly migration is the fundamntal issue in stressing the system.0 -
the playing mantis wrote:such a scheme would obviously have medical exexmptions, which would be fairly easy and simple to police.
That should cut it down to 10 million or so. Wonder if there are any appropriate historical analogies for herding that many people into camps?0 -
godwin time? or smuts territory?0
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ooermissus wrote:the playing mantis wrote:such a scheme would obviously have medical exexmptions, which would be fairly easy and simple to police.
That should cut it down to 10 million or so. Wonder if there are any appropriate historical analogies for herding that many people into camps?
It's obvious that me and you don't seem to get along but I'm yet to see you ever make an opinion of how we would ever fix issues, your posts always reflect negativity which I find odd as you are obviously a clever fellow.
I'm maybe not so clever as you so I used hard work and a grit of determination to make sure I can support me, my mother, my wife and my offspring without being a burden on society. I'm happy with that.Living MY dream.0 -
the playing mantis wrote:Rigged wrote:VTech wrote:I honestly believe that the papers hold a lot of responsibility for the cynicism that so many people feel towards the state of Britain. They've propagated the false belief for so long that there's millions of people out there who have never worked, never want to, and will never have to. That benefit fraud is rife. That immigration and/or the EU is the cause of all these problems. All of these claims are largely unsubstantiated by any sort of research. Where research is used it's partially-quoted and taken out of context to deliver an entirely different conclusion to that of the research itself.
as much as like your avatar i disagree. a small minority gets there opinion/news from the print media nowadays (especially the gruniad). newspapers and their websites influence is increasingly limited, especially amongst the computer literate ages. id suggest the bbc and their kin are the prime source these days. the points you make are also dubios, look at the welfare bill. uncontrolled/unlimited immigration is clearly a problem for a small overcrowded island with finite resources. population growth always increases pressure on all other areas, infrastructure, education, welfare etc. if that population growth is mostly down to migration, rather than an increase in birth rate amongst the 'indigenous' population, clearly migration is the fundamntal issue in stressing the system.
I've seen you previous posts in relation to the EU/immigration in (I think) the local election results thread. Suffice to say that we will never agree on this particular topic 0 -
VTech wrote:ooermissus wrote:the playing mantis wrote:such a scheme would obviously have medical exexmptions, which would be fairly easy and simple to police.
That should cut it down to 10 million or so. Wonder if there are any appropriate historical analogies for herding that many people into camps?
It's obvious that me and you don't seem to get along but I'm yet to see you ever make an opinion of how we would ever fix issues, your posts always reflect negativity which I find odd as you are obviously a clever fellow.
I'm maybe not so clever as you so I used hard work and a grit of determination to make sure I can support me, my mother, my wife and my offspring without being a burden on society. I'm happy with that.
are u talking to me?!?0 -
the playing mantis wrote:uncontrolled/unlimited immigration is clearly a problem for a small overcrowded island with finite resources.
It isn't uncontrolled or unlimited. (see - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/ )
If you would take out the emotion and do away with the absurd statements of 'facts' the valid points that you make might gain some more acceptance.
-Spider-0 -
the playing mantis wrote:VTech wrote:ooermissus wrote:the playing mantis wrote:such a scheme would obviously have medical exexmptions, which would be fairly easy and simple to police.
That should cut it down to 10 million or so. Wonder if there are any appropriate historical analogies for herding that many people into camps?
It's obvious that me and you don't seem to get along but I'm yet to see you ever make an opinion of how we would ever fix issues, your posts always reflect negativity which I find odd as you are obviously a clever fellow.
I'm maybe not so clever as you so I used hard work and a grit of determination to make sure I can support me, my mother, my wife and my offspring without being a burden on society. I'm happy with that.
are u talking to me?!?
No. Ooeerrmisus.
I agree with almost all of what's being said, I'm just not sure why people can't accept that there really is a problemLiving MY dream.0 -
the playing mantis wrote:godwin time? or smuts territory?
Hah hah. I am actually warming to this idea. Keeping 10 million people in camps is going to generate a lot of employment - guards etc.0 -
Rigged wrote:the playing mantis wrote:Rigged wrote:VTech wrote:I honestly believe that the papers hold a lot of responsibility for the cynicism that so many people feel towards the state of Britain. They've propagated the false belief for so long that there's millions of people out there who have never worked, never want to, and will never have to. That benefit fraud is rife. That immigration and/or the EU is the cause of all these problems. All of these claims are largely unsubstantiated by any sort of research. Where research is used it's partially-quoted and taken out of context to deliver an entirely different conclusion to that of the research itself.
as much as like your avatar i disagree. a small minority gets there opinion/news from the print media nowadays (especially the gruniad). newspapers and their websites influence is increasingly limited, especially amongst the computer literate ages. id suggest the bbc and their kin are the prime source these days. the points you make are also dubios, look at the welfare bill. uncontrolled/unlimited immigration is clearly a problem for a small overcrowded island with finite resources. population growth always increases pressure on all other areas, infrastructure, education, welfare etc. if that population growth is mostly down to migration, rather than an increase in birth rate amongst the 'indigenous' population, clearly migration is the fundamntal issue in stressing the system.
as well maybe, also your probably one of them granita gooners which makes it worse...! but im sure we coulds find some common ground on the topic of totteringham.
but that aside, i cannot se how u can disagree with my last sentance in tis very basic point?!
I've seen you previous posts in relation to the EU/immigration in (I think) the local election results thread. Suffice to say that we will never agree on this particular topic0 -
ooermissus wrote:the playing mantis wrote:godwin time? or smuts territory?
Hah hah. I am actually warming to this idea. Keeping 10 million people in camps is going to generate a lot of employment - guards etc.
im sure they could be tasked to making wind turbines spin somehow, have them pushing turbine blades around allday at a moderate pace, as they drip out the crisco. create power, lose weight, meaning less medical problems, lots of guards jobs, although a slight incline would probably suffice to keep them all in the camp rather than guards.0 -
VTech wrote:the playing mantis wrote:VTech wrote:ooermissus wrote:the playing mantis wrote:such a scheme would obviously have medical exexmptions, which would be fairly easy and simple to police.
That should cut it down to 10 million or so. Wonder if there are any appropriate historical analogies for herding that many people into camps?
It's obvious that me and you don't seem to get along but I'm yet to see you ever make an opinion of how we would ever fix issues, your posts always reflect negativity which I find odd as you are obviously a clever fellow.
I'm maybe not so clever as you so I used hard work and a grit of determination to make sure I can support me, my mother, my wife and my offspring without being a burden on society. I'm happy with that.
are u talking to me?!?
No. Ooeerrmisus.
I agree with almost all of what's being said, I'm just not sure why people can't accept that there really is a problem
deep down, i think i knew that!0 -
the playing mantis wrote:im sure they could be tasked to making wind turbines spin somehow, have them pushing turbine blades around allday at a moderate pace, as they drip out the crisco. create power, lose weight, meaning less medical problems, lots of guards jobs, although a slight incline would probably suffice to keep them all in the camp rather than guards.
A penal treadmill?
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What's a "granita gooner"?
It would be a lot easier to follow your points if you added your text outside of themarks!0 -
ooo. wtf was i doing in that post. sincere apologies, not sure what i was on, plus i havent been to the pub for lunch either.
granita gooner. after the famed ex new lab restaurant in islington populated by the champagne socialist set who find it fashionable to support the a*se, much like that sketch in the fast show (or maybe harry enfield).
i cant comment on this subject anyway, i have no natural affiliation with arsenal, i should be west ham of the 'top' clubs....0 -
the playing mantis wrote:ooo. wtf was i doing in that post. sincere apologies, not sure what i was on, plus i havent been to the pub for lunch either.
granita gooner. after the famed ex new lab restaurant in islington populated by the champagne socialist set who find it fashionable to support the a*se, much like that sketch in the fast show (or maybe harry enfield).
i cant comment on this subject anyway, i have no natural affiliation with arsenal, i should be west ham of the 'top' clubs....
I'm pretty sure when I started supporting Arsenal I couldn't even spell politics, let alone affiliate myself with a particular party or have any knowledge of their dining habits!
I don't think "granita gooner" will ever catch on, but nice try at least 0 -
ooermissus wrote:And doesn't the NHS already spend a lot of its cash through the private sector?
Not sure how much 'a lot' is but it certainly happens. How the service is provided should not matter to the patient yet there are a lot of hot under the collar folks who insist that all hospital provision should be carried out by public sector employees as if they have a monopoly on being nice, efficient and caring.
Judging by the recent press coverage, the NHS is failing on all three counts.0 -
Yeah seems to be a pretty big deal these days:Private firms have made such inroads that independent sector treatment centres – facilities set up to treat NHS patients – now carry out 17% of hip replacements (11,500 operations), 17% of hernia repairs (9,000) and 6% of gall bladder removals (3,000) annually in England. Their share of NHS patients grew rapidly between 2006-07 and 2010-11 after Labour's promotion of patient choice.
By 2010-11 private providers also handled 8% of patients' first attendances in relation to orthopaedics or trauma, such as a broken limb; 4.8% of such attendances for gastroenterological problems; and 2.3% of attendances for sight problems.0
