the nhs

the playing mantis

what are your opinions of it.

MountainMonster

I love questions that aren't questions.

Frank the tank

The NHS is fantastic, not perfect but fantastic none the less.

pliptrot

The NHS is excellent and is extremely good value for money. The USA is a perfact example of just how f^&ked-up, not fit for purpose and incredibly expensive a health care system can be once you let the private sector in. Yet we are allowing this to happen in the UK. The US spends more GOVERNMENT money on health care [as a % of GDP] than the UK (and remember most health care in the US is firmly in the private sector) and yet fails completely to meet requirements. European health services (Germany at least) are the best. These are highly regulated and well funded, what many otherwise sensible and perceptive Americans would dismiss as "socialized" medicine. You can make a lot of money as a cardiologist from heart surgery, but not so much from early preventative work. Hence the US system, in a nutshell.

seanoconn

Frank the tank wrote:

The NHS is fantastic, not perfect but fantastic none the less.

Echo this. My wife unfortunately (very unfortunately, 25 with no family history) is undergoing treatment for breast cancer. The service she's received so far has been top notch. We've had a few delays sitting in the waiting room but as long as long as we're seen on the day it's not a big deal.

I think the problems start once you become an in-patient, they're over stretched and don't have the resources to look after everyone properly. Still too many managers in the NHS earning good money and doing very little.

the playing mantis

i disagree. A&E for example is a joke, badly run, disorgainsed the left hand doesnt know what the right is doing. full of attention seekers and hypochondriacs wasting time. i dont understand why there isnt a private version of A&E.

now i appreciate that nursing/healthcare workers have thankless jobs and it must be depressing/grinding and i wouldnt do it in a million years, but no one forced them into it. less attitude from reception and more transparency wouldnt go amiss

ooermissus

Can be very very good (specialist cancer care for example) - can be pretty dreadful (try spending time on some of the worst wards where they warehouse sick old people). Pretty cheap for what you get, though not nearly as cheap as it used to be.

the playing mantis

to clarify my post crossed with seanocons.

im sorry to hear about ur wife. ur point about in patients is true ime. on the 2 occasions i have had relatives dieing in hospital, the care and attitudes sucked.

i know its a thankless depressing job it must be, but know one forces people into it. it seems wards need a matron type figure as they apparently used to to sort the staff out rather than the endless layers of middle managers

pliptrot

the playing mantis wrote:

i disagree. A&E for example is a joke, badly run, disorgainsed the left hand doesnt know what the right is doing. full of attention seekers and hypochondriacs wasting time. i dont understand why there isnt a private version of A&E.

now i appreciate that nursing/healthcare workers have thankless jobs and it must be depressing/grinding and i wouldnt do it in a million years, but no one forced them into it. less attitude from reception and more transparency wouldnt go amiss

You've obviously not used any health care provision in the US. It's just as bad there as you suggest the NHS may be, and you will be presented with a very large bill, whether you are insured or not. There isn't a private A&E here because it would hopelessly unprofitable, unless you could persuade those who use to part with large amounts of money. We should rue that day.

the playing mantis

i have no expereince of us healthcare.

as for a private A&E, i would use it. of course i would be charging huge amounts of money. hence it being private. health insurance isnt a bad idea.

verylonglegs

It does very much depend on your illness, it's very effective for serious life-threatening problems but for things like sports injuries or back problems etc it can be pretty damn awful and make private healthcare a boon.

ooermissus

I used US A&E earlier in the year - long wait in an awful waiting area followed by unbelievably high-tech medical care, with highly impressive medical staff, but who were, I thought, overly biased towards aggressive treatment.

No transparency at all about what it was all going to cost - paid a grand on a credit card on a bill with no detail at all (less than for a latte at Starbucks), supposedly settling the account - only to be pursued for another grand. Have never spent so much money on anything with so little idea of what I was being charged for and why.

solosuperia

I hold the NHS in high regard from a personal view, always sorted me out no problem.
This little episode backs that up. 59 year old guy a builder has been suffering from bad indigestion using industrial amounts of indigestion tablets to no avail. We all said you've to go to the quacks and get it sorted, which he did last thursday. Put him on a ECG(re-arrange the letters appropriately). You are having a heart attack old son. Cutting to the action was in Papworth Monday, two stents inserted, down the pub Monday night. Before anybody jumps to any conclusions about his drinking, he only popped in to let everyone know he was out of hospital.... It is a village pub and more like a social club in some respects.
Can't compliment the NHS on that enough...........Didn't cost him a penny
AND heart attacks are always wham bang, be aware.

capt_slog

seanoconn wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The NHS is fantastic, not perfect but fantastic none the less.

Echo this. My wife unfortunately (very unfortunately, 25 with no family history) is undergoing treatment for breast cancer. The service she's received so far has been top notch. We've had a few delays sitting in the waiting room but as long as long as we're seen on the day it's not a big deal.

Sorry to hear that, I hope she gets through it ok, and you too.

I share your opinion, it can be a bit of a ball-ache waiting around* but as long as you're seen and treated well it makes it worthwhile.

(*but how the hell they can 45 mins behind at 9 in the morning is a mystery that will endure)

MountainMonster

It is also worth pointing out that the healthcare system in the US may have more percentages of GDP spent on it than in the UK, but the UK receives NI benefits among other tax forms to bring the money, of which these systems were not in place in the states.

Also, because the health care sector is privatised in the US, I have never spent more than an hour waiting to see a doctor in A&E there, however just to have a nurse speak to me about breaking my hand in the UK took over 10 hours. Both systems have their flaws, and no system will ever be perfect.

solosuperia

SoloSuperia wrote:

AND heart attacks are always wham bang, be aware.

That of course should have read Heart attacks are NOT always wham bang.
They can give you quite a bit of warning if you don't ignore any symptoms etc.

Frank the tank

the playing mantis wrote:

i have no expereince of us healthcare.

as for a private A&E, i would use it. of course i would be charging huge amounts of money. hence it being private. health insurance isnt a bad idea.

'Til you can't afford the premiums and you have a smash on your bike.

Remember we pay NI and when you're no longer earning you still continue to be covered and cared for by the NHS. Soon as your premiums cease to be paid, "go whistle" for your health care.

In the last 12months I've had both my hips resurfaced via the NHS and both the operation itself and the aftercare in/out of hospital has been excellent.

As I said the NHS isn't perfect (what is) however in some sections of the media and society it's become very fashionable to attack the NHS and what it does/doesn't do.

I say to these people, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone.

seanoconn

Capt Slog wrote:

seanoconn wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The NHS is fantastic, not perfect but fantastic none the less.

Echo this. My wife unfortunately (very unfortunately, 25 with no family history) is undergoing treatment for breast cancer. The service she's received so far has been top notch. We've had a few delays sitting in the waiting room but as long as long as we're seen on the day it's not a big deal.

Sorry to hear that, I hope she gets through it ok, and you too.

I share your opinion, it can be a bit of a ball-ache waiting around* but as long as you're seen and treated well it makes it worthwhile.

(*but how the hell they can 45 mins behind at 9 in the morning is a mystery that will endure)

Thank you. And yep, it's a mystery

Frank the tank

Capt Slog wrote:

seanoconn wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The NHS is fantastic, not perfect but fantastic none the less.

Echo this. My wife unfortunately (very unfortunately, 25 with no family history) is undergoing treatment for breast cancer. The service she's received so far has been top notch. We've had a few delays sitting in the waiting room but as long as long as we're seen on the day it's not a big deal.

Sorry to hear that, I hope she gets through it ok, and you too.

I share your opinion, it can be a bit of a ball-ache waiting around* but as long as you're seen and treated well it makes it worthwhile.

(*but how the hell they can 45 mins behind at 9 in the morning is a mystery that will endure)

Hope it goes well for you all. Your wife is being looked after by the best people I'm sure.

-spider-

I can only say good things about the NHS. Any time that I have needed them they have been there for me and my family. Hospitals, GPs, District Nurses, etc, all excellent. Sometimes the admin has been less than brilliant but overall that is ok too.

seanoconn

Cheers. I would advise anyone being treated by the NHS, not to put blind faith in doctors though. They're human and make mistakes. Do your own research, pay attention to what the doctor is saying. Ask lots and lots of questions and ask for the best of everything. Sometimes if you don't ask you don't get.

AchillesLeftKnee

Touch wood, have had no personal experience of the NHS for years. Based on those of friends n' family, it looks to me like they do superb job of stuff that's very much a known quantity (including genuinely serious and nasty stuff), but it all goes really badly to pot when things get a bit complex and start to fall outside the normal processes. In the case of the latter scenario, I've got two friends with incurable (but manageable) obscure long term chronic conditions, and the care they receive is more or less a matter of medical roulette - sometimes exceptional, other times non-existent*.

That said, as pointed out earlier, the NHS is remarkably cost effective, and whilst I'm sure there are a lot of improvements that could be made, it seems to me that system is pretty sound and is therefore a Good Thing and worth the money.

* To the point of one of them recently being effectively told she wasn't ill. Well, if semi-regular brushes with death's door and their accompanying stays in intensive care are a hobby, it's a new one on me!

capt_slog

Frank the tank wrote:

the playing mantis wrote:

i have no expereince of us healthcare.

as for a private A&E, i would use it. of course i would be charging huge amounts of money. hence it being private. health insurance isnt a bad idea.

'Til you can't afford the premiums and you have a smash on your bike.


I say to these people, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone.

After living under the umbrella of the NHS for all my life it seems impossible now that there was another way of health care but I recall bits of what my late father told me.

When he was in his late teen/early twenties he was kicked in the side of his thigh whilst playing football, this caused an abscess which he had to go to hospital to have treated. I remember the huge scar on the inside of his leg.

Before he went to hospital he had to go and see the vicar. As a regular church goer (+choir member and bell ringer) he had some standing in his local church, and it was from the church that he got the money for his treatment or they agreed to pay the bills.

I might be hazy on the details, but I'm sure that's how it went, and I hope it never goes back to that.

the playing mantis

Frank the tank wrote:

the playing mantis wrote:

i have no expereince of us healthcare.

as for a private A&E, i would use it. of course i would be charging huge amounts of money. hence it being private. health insurance isnt a bad idea.

'Til you can't afford the premiums and you have a smash on your bike.

Remember we pay NI and when you're no longer earning you still continue to be covered and cared for by the NHS. Soon as your premiums cease to be paid, "go whistle" for your health care.

In the last 12months I've had both my hips resurfaced via the NHS and both the operation itself and the aftercare in/out of hospital has been excellent.

As I said the NHS isn't perfect (what is) however in some sections of the media and society it's become very fashionable to attack the NHS and what it does/doesn't do.

I say to these people, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone.

i had acrah on saturday, and experienced the delights of A&E. that triggered my post. i have health ins x2.

dynamicbrick

I'm very much in two minds about the NHS.

Yes, they put me back together again after I'd speared myself into the scenery at 100mph whilst parting company with my motorbike. However, that was nearly twenty years ago. Since then, I've had mostly awful experiences through relatives - the treatment and ultimate expiration of my father from leukemia was pretty shocking by any standards. My brother was left in A&E for nearly 14 hours without any attention whatsoever after an industrial accident where he'd lost two pints of blood. The birth of my second child was far more bloody fraught than it should have been, only being resolved when the midwives eventually acquiesced to my demands to get the consultant in to see the missus.

My GP is probably the worst of the bunch... I could go on for hours about him, but suffice to say it's taken me six years of complaining of right ear and balance problems to be diagnosed (privately) with an unusual but not uncommon vestibular disorder. Then there was the various mis-diagnosis he's given my kids for various things... or the time he prescribed my then 8yr old some drugs which would have killed an adult - only the pharmacist noticing it was wrong saved us from that one.

My mother worked administratively in the NHS until retirement, and she maintained the problem is not one of money, or the layers of management, but that like all large public bodies it suffers from both silo mentality and collective paranoia. The little empires all over the organisation hamper effectively collaboration of resources and knowledge, whilst the paranoia about anyone not NHS severely restricts the organisation's ability to view itself critically and make changes - as Mid-Staffs showed.

The bad people don't get sacked, rather shuffled about, eventually collecting in dumping grounds like East Surrey or Mid Staffs, whereas the good people gravitate towards the centres of excellence like Kings or GOSH. Hence the roulette - if Kings if your local, you're pretty much in good hands with lots of excellent people in-situ. Live 10 miles South, however, and you're taking your life in your hands at Redhill. My Father's leukemia treatment begun at Kings, and it was brilliant. Then he transferred to Redhill and it was borderline 3rd world; illiterate temp nurses running the dispensing trolley (!), sporadic food, cancer wards without staff for hours at a time, sheets unwashed for weeks, the recently deceased left in the ward for four or five hours... it was a hellish last few months for him.

the playing mantis

your experinces sound awful, this point struck me:

"or the time he prescribed my then 8yr old some drugs which would have killed an adult - only the pharmacist noticing it was wrong saved us from that one".

surely the gp could be struck off for that, or am i being naive

mamba80

the playing mantis wrote:

i disagree. A&E for example is a joke, badly run, disorgainsed the left hand doesnt know what the right is doing. full of attention seekers and hypochondriacs wasting time. i dont understand why there isnt a private version of A&E.

Yes AE is not good at all BUT whose fault is that??? ours! we go there with the slightest ache or pain, minor injuries - cuts and bruises, and then demand to be seen asap.
My last visit there was for my bro who had concusion, b/collar bone and several missing teeth (mtb accident) we had a 3hr wait (after triage) we were surrounded with screaming kids whose worried mums said little jonny/jenny banged their head but is alright now but needs to been seen "just in case" a few sprained ankles, ffs they could walk! what do the think a nurse is going to do for them? (oh and demanding an x-ray) and one guy who had been hit on the nose playing squash...i had to look v. hard to see the tiny cut.
We are a nation of softies, bring in a minimum charge for AE, say £20 and see the place empty, im sure some people go there for the social scene - oh and a £100 charge if you turn up there pxssed.

the playing mantis

to a point yes, kids get prority over adults i belive, but there is no excuse for the same patient getting called by 2 seperate people (whilst they were already being seen) this happened on a number of occasions, likewise when patients had left, they were still being called. when i eventually saw the doc, he and the nurse were commenting about another patient, and one of them made the remark, oh he left or something, and the doc said oh yes i forgot to flag it (or something similar) so some of the staff still thought this person was waitng to be seen.

its a shambles.

dynamicbrick

The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

Frank the tank

dynamicbrick wrote:

The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

So I go out with some pals have a few bevvies and the des driver has a smash and I end up in A&E. Why should I be charged a £100?

I've had loads of visits to A&E usually through sporting incidents or very occasionally work related. I had to wait my turn but so what I got mended on that day.

dynamicbrick

Frank the tank wrote:

dynamicbrick wrote:

The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

So I go out with some pals have a few bevvies and the des driver has a smash and I end up in A&E. Why should I be charged a £100?

I've had loads of visits to A&E usually through sporting incidents or very occasionally work related. I had to wait my turn but so what I got mended on that day.

Yes, it would be a bloody nightmare to administrate, but if you want an example of unnecessary drag on the system, pop into Brighton A&E on a late Saturday afternoon during the summer - it's like a bloody zoo; heatstroke, sunburn, alcohol, and injuries from fighting or falling off things whilst suffering from the above.