squats and leg-presses?

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Comments

  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    neeb wrote:
    I've went from squatting 220kg (powerlifting @ 15 stone, 5ft8 ) to road cycling. Granted the strength is useful for short sharp climbs but strength and endurance use different muscle fibers and it's hit me like a brick wall trying to adapt from using one to another.

    So yes strength will assist in making you a better cyclist but putting miles in will probably make you even better, in my opinion of course :)
    And you don't even know if the ability you gained to do short sharp climbs from your weight training is really a product of strength as such - by training to do the powerlifting you will have (intentionally or unintentionally) trained a bunch of general fitness systems (blood supply to the muscles, mitochondrial density etc) which are also useful for cycling, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have trained them more or less efficiently by just doing short sharp climbs rather than lifting.

    Fixed that for you.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    dennisn wrote:
    neeb wrote:
    And you don't even know if the ability you gained to do short sharp climbs from your weight training is really a product of strength as such - by training to do the powerlifting you will have (intentionally or unintentionally) trained a bunch of general fitness systems (blood supply to the muscles, mitochondrial density etc) which are also useful for cycling, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have trained them more or less efficiently by just doing short sharp climbs rather than lifting.

    Fixed that for you.
    Except the science (as calmly expounded by Alex Simmons on numerous occasions) strongly suggests the opposite of what you are saying. Just by contradicting the evidence without any other verifiable evidence doesn't constitute a proper argument.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
  • NeXXus
    NeXXus Posts: 854
    dennisn wrote:
    neeb wrote:
    And you don't even know if the ability you gained to do short sharp climbs from your weight training is really a product of strength as such - by training to do the powerlifting you will have (intentionally or unintentionally) trained a bunch of general fitness systems (blood supply to the muscles, mitochondrial density etc) which are also useful for cycling, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have trained them more or less efficiently by just doing short sharp climbs rather than lifting.

    Fixed that for you.
    Except the science (as calmly expounded by Alex Simmons on numerous occasions) strongly suggests the opposite of what you are saying. Just by contradicting the evidence without any other verifiable evidence doesn't constitute a proper argument.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
    I recall posting a far amount of Alex's contributions on the subject. Apparently the "gym works guys" agenda bans all reading but anecdotal links on Wiggo.
    And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.
  • cenkee
    cenkee Posts: 71
    Yeah as the OP my concern was; since both my hobbies -gym & cycling- work the knees intensely , would it be wise to take some precautions like joint supplements, going easy on leg workouts with high reps, take a day off between leg workouts and long hours of cycling etc. I was not asking if weight lifting has any positive effects on my cycling. Because I don't think it has. Then things got out of hand :)
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    cenkee wrote:
    Yeah as the OP my concern was; since both my hobbies -gym & cycling- work the knees intensely , would it be wise to take some precautions like joint supplements, going easy on leg workouts with high reps, take a day off between leg workouts and long hours of cycling etc. I was not asking if weight lifting has any positive effects on my cycling. Because I don't think it has. Then things got out of hand :)
    Have you had any problems with your knees? Cycling is only bad for your knees if it is putting strain on them unnaturally, which it needn't do if you have a good setup. If you are at all worried about your knees it is definitely worth getting a professional bike fit, which if done properly will ensure that your knees are tracking completely straight and within their normal range of movement without twisting. Because you are locked into the pedals when cycling, the activity can either be completely benign for your knees or potentially damaging depending on the setup. I can't speak for what the gym work may do to your knees, but cycling needn't be at all bad for the knees.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    dennisn wrote:
    Let's try another tact. In your opinion is there any other kind of exercise that might benefit a cyclist?

    Bike riding - at varying levels of intensity and duration according to your goals as a cyclist. But then you knew I was gonna say that...
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Once upon a time, in one of these interminable threads on leg strength, someone engaged with the question and changed his mind about the benefit of leg strength work. My, it was even a thread where P_Tucker got all reasonable and polite (for a while) - but these things happen when someone is actually prepared to engage with the science, rather than just relying on personal anecdote.

    Unfortunately though, it seems poor old Dennis still isn't quite getting it. His particular 'Damascene conversion' still awaits...
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    Imposter wrote:
    Unfortunately though, it seems poor old Dennis still isn't quite getting it. His particular 'Damascene conversion' still awaits...
    Now the OP has dragged it back on track, and said he doesn't think weights help his cycling in any case, shall we just let this thread wither now? I'm sure we'll get another chance to 'debate' the leg strength question again. And again. And again. And again.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Imposter wrote:
    Unfortunately though, it seems poor old Dennis still isn't quite getting it. His particular 'Damascene conversion' still awaits...
    Now the OP has dragged it back on track, and said he doesn't think weights help his cycling in any case, shall we just let this thread wither now? I'm sure we'll get another chance to 'debate' the leg strength question again. And again. And again. And again.

    With you on that. I've tried to post links to every bit of evidence I'm aware of. Anyone who still doesn't get it frankly deserves to be in the gym anyway... ;)
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    dennisn wrote:
    neeb wrote:
    And you don't even know if the ability you gained to do short sharp climbs from your weight training is really a product of strength as such - by training to do the powerlifting you will have (intentionally or unintentionally) trained a bunch of general fitness systems (blood supply to the muscles, mitochondrial density etc) which are also useful for cycling, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have trained them more or less efficiently by just doing short sharp climbs rather than lifting.

    Fixed that for you.
    Except the science (as calmly expounded by Alex Simmons on numerous occasions) strongly suggests the opposite of what you are saying. Just by contradicting the evidence without any other verifiable evidence doesn't constitute a proper argument.

    I have no problem with Science. Makes the world a better(or worse depending on your thinking) place to live. I would remind you that Science once said that 700x19 really high pressure tires were the way to go on bicycles. Yet, just recently, I read where Scientific testing shows that 700x25 tires preform just as well, if not better. in any case even Einstein has had a few things proven wrong. Science proves what can be proven within the limits of it's ability at the time and even then there are scientists who doubt and or flatly reject many claims of proof. What's thought to be true today is often disproven or cast into doubt 10 or 20 years down the road.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    dennisn wrote:

    I have no problem with Science. Makes the world a better(or worse depending on your thinking) place to live. I would remind you that Science once said that 700x19 really high pressure tires were the way to go on bicycles. Yet, just recently, I read where Scientific testing shows that 700x25 tires preform just as well, if not better. in any case even Einstein has had a few things proven wrong. Science proves what can be proven within the limits of it's ability at the time and even then there are scientists who doubt and or flatly reject many claims of proof. What's thought to be true today is often disproven or cast into doubt 10 or 20 years down the road.

    Perfectly put. So until such time as science proves that 'gyming to improve cycling leg strength' is anything other than a monumental waste of time, I (and others too, I expect) will stay out of the gym.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Once upon a time, in one of these interminable threads on leg strength, someone engaged with the question and changed his mind about the benefit of leg strength work.

    I actually thought it was illegal, or at the very least in bad form, to change your mind on a forum. Especially BikeRadar. Should this person be banned?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Imposter wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    I have no problem with Science. Makes the world a better(or worse depending on your thinking) place to live. I would remind you that Science once said that 700x19 really high pressure tires were the way to go on bicycles. Yet, just recently, I read where Scientific testing shows that 700x25 tires preform just as well, if not better. in any case even Einstein has had a few things proven wrong. Science proves what can be proven within the limits of it's ability at the time and even then there are scientists who doubt and or flatly reject many claims of proof. What's thought to be true today is often disproven or cast into doubt 10 or 20 years down the road.

    Perfectly put. So until such time as science proves that 'gyming to improve cycling leg strength' is anything other than a monumental waste of time, I (and others too, I expect) will stay out of the gym.

    OK, but you're missing out on the best stuff around. The gym girls just love to watch the guys do heavy leg work and it's a well know fact that girls are attracted to guys butts and guys butts are definitely worked very well with squats.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    dennisn wrote:
    I actually thought it was illegal, or at the very least in bad form, to change your mind on a forum. Especially BikeRadar. Should this person be banned?
    Don't worry, Dennis. I'm sure no-one would notice if you quietly slipped into the "weights won't make the average cyclist any better/faster, but don't let us stop you doing them if you enjoy them in any case" camp. Just because very few people are open-minded/brave enough to admit that they've changed their mind doesn't make it bad form. (Apologies for ignoring your humour.) I always think it's a shame when politicians get shot down for shifting their stance in response to changing circumstances/evidence. We should look up to people who listen to the evidence and are prepared to admit they might have been mistaken in their beliefs. That could be you, Dennis.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    dennisn wrote:
    I actually thought it was illegal, or at the very least in bad form, to change your mind on a forum. Especially BikeRadar. Should this person be banned?
    Don't worry, Dennis. I'm sure no-one would notice if you quietly slipped into the "weights won't make the average cyclist any better/faster, but don't let us stop you doing them if you enjoy them in any case" camp. Just because very few people are open-minded/brave enough to admit that they've changed their mind doesn't make it bad form. (Apologies for ignoring your humour.) I always think it's a shame when politicians get shot down for shifting their stance in response to changing circumstances/evidence. We should look up to people who listen to the evidence and are prepared to admit they might have been mistaken in their beliefs. That could be you, Dennis.

    It could. And I know that. It's just that after all these years(64) am I not supposed to be actively working toward being a really good (or bad) sour old curmudgeon. I can be that guy you love to hate.
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    ooermissus wrote:
    OP just wanted to know if going to the gym would wreck his knees.

    LMAO!
  • goonz
    goonz Posts: 3,106
    On a correctly set up bike, I dont think knees are even affected are they? I mean its a non impact sport so what problem could there be for knees?

    Also years of weight lifters and hardly any suffer from knee pains so I doubt its going to be a massive concern, at least not with the weights us mortals can lift.
    Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
    Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
    Specialized Langster SS for Ease
    Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
    n+1 is well and truly on track
    Strava http://app.strava.com/athletes/1608875
  • cenkee
    cenkee Posts: 71
    aren't the knee injuries & knee pain the most common health problem in cycling or am I wrong?
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Well I've had 3 lots of knee surgery for damaged cartilage and cycling has been the best rehab exercise.

    Football and carrying too heavy a rucksack down mountains are what did for my knees.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    keef66 wrote:
    Well I've had 3 lots of knee surgery for damaged cartilage and cycling has been the best rehab exercise.

    Football and carrying too heavy a rucksack down mountains are what did for my knees.
    I did my knee in playing badminton, and got properly into cycling for rehab. Anything compressing and twisting the knee is going to cause problems in the long term - I often wince when I see overweight people jogging with terrible leg tracking - they ought to get on a bike instead, unless they want to have their knees replaced.

    I too find descending mountains on foot aggravates my knee - usually a good ride will straighten it out.
  • goonz
    goonz Posts: 3,106
    cenkee wrote:
    aren't the knee injuries & knee pain the most common health problem in cycling or am I wrong?

    Not unless your bike is seriously ill fitting.

    Most people with knee injuries and pain take up cycling because of its non impact, no strain on knees approach.
    Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
    Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
    Specialized Langster SS for Ease
    Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
    n+1 is well and truly on track
    Strava http://app.strava.com/athletes/1608875
  • cenkee
    cenkee Posts: 71
    I see. I always thought cycling puts a considerable load on the knees but apparently this is wrong. Thank you for the info.
  • MountainMonster
    MountainMonster Posts: 7,423
    cenkee wrote:
    I see. I always thought cycling puts a considerable load on the knees but apparently this is wrong. Thank you for the info.

    With regards to this point:

    It can put tremendous stress on knees depending on work loads you put yourself through. You will obviously do damage if you push yourself 100% of the time while over gearing for example, but if you ride with a decent gear you should be fine.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    goonz wrote:
    cenkee wrote:
    aren't the knee injuries & knee pain the most common health problem in cycling or am I wrong?

    Not unless your bike is seriously ill fitting.

    Most people with knee injuries and pain take up cycling because of its non impact, no strain on knees approach.
    Unfortunately a lot of people are fitted pretty badly, hence the comparatively large number of knee injuries. But if your fit is right, it is positively good for the knees. So if you do have any consistent knee pain from cycling, the lesson is to get the fit sorted out asap before it does any damage.

    I have pedals with non-standard slightly longer axles, forefoot wedges, a 3mm shim under my left cleat and special insoles that give proper arch support... Before I had all that done I had occasional niggling knee issues, I don't any more.
  • Scotter
    Scotter Posts: 52
    Speaking as someone who has weight trained for the last 16 years and cycled for longer (with no ill effects), I thought these snippets from an article on strength training in last week`s Cycling Weekly may interest followers of this thread;

    "...strength training shouldn`t be disregarded as there are numerous benefits to be had from incorporating it into your weekly training programme
    It can help prevent injury, increase stability and cycling efficiency, improve bone health and even reduce the risk of diabetes. And what`s even more promising is that research over the last decade has shown that strength training can have a positive effect on aerobic endurance."

    also;

    "Strength training should be incorporated into cyclists training" says British Cycling`s strength and conditioning coach Martin Evans.
    "All cyclists of all levels would benefit-if everyone could do a squat, a lunge and a press up, everyone would generally be a better athlete as well as reduce their risk of injury" he added.

    Difficult to argue with that. 8)
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Not that difficult to argue with really. Without knowing specifically which studies they are referring to, none of them that I am aware of actually stand up to proper scrutiny. As far as I am aware, there is no credible evidence in any study (recent or otherwise) which indicates that it has a positive effect on aerobic endurance. That's not to say weights won't have a positive effect on general health, core etc, but that's not what's been discussed here.
  • city_boy
    city_boy Posts: 1,616
    Here's a couple of studies which seem to indicate a direct benefit of strength training on cycling performance. I would suggest they're at least equally as 'scientific' as the studies indicating otherwise.......

    1. "In a unique study carried out by noted researcher Asker Juekendrup and his colleagues from the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, a group of competitive cyclists who substituted explosive strength training for about one-third of their usual endurance training upgraded maximal power output and time-trial performance in just four weeks, compared with individuals who continue with their usual endurance training (4).


    In this Dutch-English inquiry, 14 experienced cyclists took part; six were placed in the experimental, explosive-training group, while the other eight athletes served as controls. The athletes were accustomed to training for about 12 to 13 hours per week and had been training at a high level for an average of five to eight years. During the experimental period, both groups averaged nine hours of training each week, but for the explosive group 37 percent of the total time consisted of explosive training. The control group carried out only typical endurance training.


    The explosive sessions consisted of high-rep, low-resistance, quick-as-possible movements, with 30 reps per set for each exercise. Resistance was set so that the athletes could keep up their speed of movement during the first 20 reps of the 30-rep sets, with some power lost over the last 10 reps. If the athletes could finish an exercise with a constant rate of movement, the resistance was increased. Each explosive workout proceeded as follows:


    (1) 10-minute warm-up on bike at 75 percent of heart-rate max


    (2) Squats: 2 sets of 30 reps, with short recovery between sets


    (3) Leg Presses: 2 sets of 30 reps, with short recovery


    (4) Leg Pulls: 2 sets of 30 reps


    (5) One-Leg Step-Ups: 2 sets of 30 reps


    (6) 10 minutes of cycling at 75 percent of heart-rate max


    After step 6 was completed, steps 2-6 were performed one more time.


    As mentioned, the average power output achieved during a one-hour time trial increased significantly after just four weeks of training in the explosive group but failed to budge upward for the control, endurance-training-only cyclists. In addition, maximal power sailed upward after four weeks for the explosive fellows but was stagnant in the endurance riders. Interestingly enough, the explosive group cyclists were also able to maintain their "short-term performance" (the ability to cycle all-out for just 30 seconds) over a nine-week period, while the strictly endurance-trained athletes lost short-term performance power. Also, the explosive athletes tended to become more efficient over the study period (i.e., could complete more work per minute for each unit of energy expended), while the endurance cyclists did not. The explosive strength training was a winner!"

    2. "The study carried out by R. C. Hickson and his colleagues at the University of Illinois at Chicago was considerably more practical. In that investigation, eight experienced cyclists added three days per week of strength training to their regular endurance routines over a 10-week period.

    The strength training was incredibly simple, focusing on parallel squats (five sets of five reps per workout), knee extensions (three sets of five reps), knee flexions (3 x 5), and toe raises (3 x 25), all with fairly heavy resistance. The only progression utilized in the program involved the amount of resistance, which increased steadily as strength improved.

    Nonetheless, the strength training had a profoundly positive impact on cycling performance. After 10 weeks, the cyclists improved their 'short-term endurance' (their ability to continue working at a very high intensity) by about 11 per cent, and they also expanded the amount of time they could pedal at an intensity of 80% V02max from 71 to 85 minutes, about a 20-per cent upgrade."
    Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.
  • city_boy
    city_boy Posts: 1,616
    Here's a 3rd....

    "Effects of strength training on lactate threshold and endurance performance.
    Marcinik EJ, Potts J, Schlabach G, Will S, Dawson P, Hurley BF.
    Source
    Department of Kinesiology, University of Maryland, College Park 20742.
    Abstract
    To determine the effects of 12 wk of strength training on lactate threshold (LT) and endurance performance, 18 healthy untrained males between 25 and 34 yr of age were randomly assigned to either strength training (N = 10) or control (N = 8 ) groups. Despite no changes in treadmill VO2max or cycle peak VO2, a 33 +/- 5% increase (P less than 0.001) in cycling to exhaustion at 75% of peak VO2 was observed following training. No significant changes in cycling time were observed in the control group. There were significant reductions in plasma lactate concentration at all relative exercise intensities ranging between 55 and 75% of peak VO2 training. The improved endurance performance was associated with a 12% increase in LT (r = 0.78, P less than 0.001). The strength training program resulted in significant improvements (P less than 0.001) of 31 +/- 5% and 35 +/- 7% in isokinetic peak torque values for leg extension and flexion, respectively, at a velocity of 30 degrees.s-1. There were also significant increases in 1-RM values of 30 +/- 4% (P less than 0.001) for leg extension, 52 +/- 6% (P less than 0.001) for leg flexion, and 20 +/- 4% (P less than 0.001) for the bench press. These findings indicate that strength training improves cycle endurance performance independently of changes in VO2max. This improved performance appears to be related to increases in LT and leg strength."
    Statistically, 6 out of 7 dwarves are not happy.
  • Strith
    Strith Posts: 541
    Got doi?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    OK - you need to look at the conclusions of the Juekendrup study a bit more closely. Here's a quote from it:

    It is concluded that replacing a portion of endurance training by explosive strength training prevents a decrease in STP without compromising gains in endurance performance of trained cyclists. - hardly an advocate of weights. As ever, quoting only the bits you like rarely tells the full story.

    Anyway, those papers are all discussed in this link here, along with a few links to other studies which show different conclusions, so take your pick.

    viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12897721

    Like I said before, there is nothing out there which conclusively demonstrates that weights can improve performance. There might be one day, who knows...
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