squats and leg-presses?

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  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Busta - you didn't answer my previous question. Maybe you missed it.
    Imposter wrote:
    How long have you been gyming, busta ?? Presumably your legs are very strong now ? If so, would it therefore be reasonable to assume that your cycling performance is also at a very high level ??
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    edited May 2013
    Imposter wrote:
    Busta - you didn't answer my previous question. Maybe you missed it.
    Imposter wrote:
    How long have you been gyming, busta ?? Presumably your legs are very strong now ? If so, would it therefore be reasonable to assume that your cycling performance is also at a very high level ??

    I did indeed miss it! What page is it on?

    To answer your question - I've been 'gyming' for a long time now. Close to 2 decades.

    It would not be reasonable to assume that my cycling performance is also at a very high level.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Bustacapp wrote:

    To answer your question - I've been 'gyming' for a long time now. Close to 2 decades.

    It would not be reasonable to assume that your cycling performance is also at a very high level.

    Surely by your own definition - with strong legs you should also be a very good cyclist ? If not, why not ?
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    Imposter wrote:
    Surely by your own definition - with strong legs you should also be a very good cyclist ? If not, why not ?

    Do you think an elephant would be a very good cyclist?
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    This debate could go on for ever... :wink:

    The answer is simple - leg strength and gym work will help a bit for being able to apply a lot of power very rapidly (over the space of 0 - 5 seconds maybe?) but there are rather few situations in cycling where this will be of any use to you, you are far better off spending your time doing other things, and if you over-develop your leg muscles it may end up being a net disadvantage for endurance cycling.
  • Callum_62
    Callum_62 Posts: 28
    I have been supplementing my training with squats and romanian deadlifts for some time now. Sure, compared to getting out and riding hard, they are suboptimal, but I can knock out a set in 30 minutes after work, the same isn't true for riding 100km.

    I also do a fair amount of distance running, which these exercises are probably more suited to. But I think it's pretty naive to suggest they offer no benefit whatsoever to a cyclist, especially when it's not a 'one or the other' type situation compared with riding. Cycling alone is great, I would say the same amount of cycling + weight training is better.
  • goonz
    goonz Posts: 3,106
    I went gym for the first time in at least a year and stupidly did leg extensions, with a reasonable weight on it and felt the burn for the next few days. I then went on a long ride on Sunday and I definitely felt it in my legs. The first 6 miles were hard work.

    Still, I reckon there was an advantage to me doing the leg extensions even without ample recovery time and by the end of the ride my legs actually felt fine.
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  • Zoomer37
    Zoomer37 Posts: 725
    goonz wrote:
    I went gym for the first time in at least a year and stupidly did leg extensions, with a reasonable weight on it and felt the burn for the next few days. I then went on a long ride on Sunday and I definitely felt it in my legs. The first 6 miles were hard work.

    Still, I reckon there was an advantage to me doing the leg extensions even without ample recovery time and by the end of the ride my legs actually felt fine.

    What exactly was the advantage?
  • goonz
    goonz Posts: 3,106
    Zoomer37 wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    I went gym for the first time in at least a year and stupidly did leg extensions, with a reasonable weight on it and felt the burn for the next few days. I then went on a long ride on Sunday and I definitely felt it in my legs. The first 6 miles were hard work.

    Still, I reckon there was an advantage to me doing the leg extensions even without ample recovery time and by the end of the ride my legs actually felt fine.

    What exactly was the advantage?

    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.
    Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
    Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
    Specialized Langster SS for Ease
    Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
    n+1 is well and truly on track
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  • Slo Mo Jones
    Slo Mo Jones Posts: 272
    Bustacapp wrote:
    Strength isn't useful for cyclists blah blah blah

    oh wait..........
    So Wiggins went back to the gym this winter and did a strength and conditioning programme building the muscles in his core that cycling can't reach, to the depth he needed. He also did specific bike training, like high-intensity intervals with varying rest, designed to help him mount powerful anaerobic attacks and recover from them, and cope when others make them, which is crucial.
    Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... YTCW4OF.99

    Brilliant.



    Before Wiggins did any strength and conditioning programme, he cycled for hundreds of thousands of hours.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    goonz wrote:
    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    There's the answer then. Despite the complete absense of any actual scientific evidence to show that weights improve endurance cycling performance, that's all the evidence we need ;)
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Imposter wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    There's the answer then. Despite the complete absense of any actual scientific evidence to show that weights improve endurance cycling performance, that's all the evidence we need ;)

    In all seriousness how do you explain to what purpose athletes in many, many sports use weight training for?
    H*ll, it would appear that Tiger Woods pumps a bit of iron. At least that's what the last photos of him seem to show.
    Are you saying that all of them don't have a clue as to what they are doing or don't even know what works for them?
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    dennisn wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    There's the answer then. Despite the complete absense of any actual scientific evidence to show that weights improve endurance cycling performance, that's all the evidence we need ;)

    In all seriousness how do you explain to what purpose athletes in many, many sports use weight training for?
    H*ll, it would appear that Tiger Woods pumps a bit of iron. At least that's what the last photos of him seem to show.
    Are you saying that all of them don't have a clue as to what they are doing or don't even know what works for them?

    Horses for courses. If you play rugby (or the more genteel American football :D ), then weight training is sure to be a benefit. Wrestling too, probably tennis for your arms, etc. But cycling, less so.

    I don't think you can compare golf to cycling in any way, shape or form.
  • Zoomer37
    Zoomer37 Posts: 725
    goonz wrote:
    Zoomer37 wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    I went gym for the first time in at least a year and stupidly did leg extensions, with a reasonable weight on it and felt the burn for the next few days. I then went on a long ride on Sunday and I definitely felt it in my legs. The first 6 miles were hard work.

    Still, I reckon there was an advantage to me doing the leg extensions even without ample recovery time and by the end of the ride my legs actually felt fine.

    What exactly was the advantage?

    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    1 session at the gym increased your performance when sprinting and climbing?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    dennisn wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    There's the answer then. Despite the complete absense of any actual scientific evidence to show that weights improve endurance cycling performance, that's all the evidence we need ;)

    In all seriousness how do you explain to what purpose athletes in many, many sports use weight training for?
    H*ll, it would appear that Tiger Woods pumps a bit of iron. At least that's what the last photos of him seem to show.
    Are you saying that all of them don't have a clue as to what they are doing or don't even know what works for them?

    Horses for courses. If you play rugby (or the more genteel American football :D ), then weight training is sure to be a benefit. Wrestling too, probably tennis for your arms, etc. But cycling, less so.

    I don't think you can compare golf to cycling in any way, shape or form.

    i'm not comparing them at all. Just saying that many, many sports figures in many, many, many, different sports use weight training. Whether this weight training yields massive gains in their chosen sport or simply helps eke out those precious seconds, it would appear to have value to everyone from the pros on down the ladder to the local weekend warrior.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Imposter wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    There's the answer then. Despite the complete absense of any actual scientific evidence to show that weights improve endurance cycling performance, that's all the evidence I need ;)

    Fixed that for you.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    dennisn wrote:
    i'm not comparing them at all. Just saying that many, many sports figures in many, many, many, different sports use weight training. Whether this weight training yields massive gains in their chosen sport or simply helps eke out those precious seconds, it would appear to have value to everyone from the pros on down the ladder to the local weekend warrior.

    This is a cycling forum dennis, so it's not unreasonable to be talking about weights specifically in relation to cycling performance. I'm sure there are good cases for weight training in other sports, but there is no evidence (unless you can find any that hasn't already been shot down - good luck) to suggest that weight training for cycling performance is anything other than neutral, or possibly even detrimental. In that sense, what other sports do is, frankly, irrelevant. Wrestling ffs...be serious.
  • goonz
    goonz Posts: 3,106
    Zoomer37 wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    Zoomer37 wrote:
    goonz wrote:
    I went gym for the first time in at least a year and stupidly did leg extensions, with a reasonable weight on it and felt the burn for the next few days. I then went on a long ride on Sunday and I definitely felt it in my legs. The first 6 miles were hard work.

    Still, I reckon there was an advantage to me doing the leg extensions even without ample recovery time and by the end of the ride my legs actually felt fine.

    What exactly was the advantage?

    Feeling slightly stronger in the sprints and also when standing whilst climbing...may have been in my head but thats when it felt better for me.

    1 session at the gym increased your performance when sprinting and climbing?

    I did say it may have been in my head, but I used to gym a lot before cycling and marriage and my muscle memory is second to none, does not take me long to bulk back up and get good definition and strength.
    Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
    Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
    Specialized Langster SS for Ease
    Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
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  • lockstock666
    lockstock666 Posts: 131
    If you are already in the gym then there is no reason not to do squats. They are one of the best lifts you can do for all round strength. If you are doing it correctly it should only strengthen your knees.

    Leg presses are not so useful as squats.

    However the ultimate sport exercise is the power clean. They would be an awesome exercise for improving cycling sprint ability too since they develop explosive leg and core and even upper body power in much the same way as you see the sprinters going for the line on the tour.

    Strong push down with legs, strong pull upwards with the arms, using the torso to get the maximum leverage into the cranks in an explosive fashion.

    Whether pro sprinters use them or not I have no idea but I'm sure they should. :D
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    Once upon a time, in one of these interminable threads on leg strength, someone engaged with the question and changed his mind about the benefit of leg strength work. My, it was even a thread where P_Tucker got all reasonable and polite (for a while) - but these things happen when someone is actually prepared to engage with the science, rather than just relying on personal anecdote.

    I still haven't quite worked out why each one of these threads get so heated - the only conclusion I can come to is that it's a science v. faith (personal anecdote) issue, and it's very hard to argue logically with faith.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Imposter wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    i'm not comparing them at all. Just saying that many, many sports figures in many, many, many, different sports use weight training. Whether this weight training yields massive gains in their chosen sport or simply helps eke out those precious seconds, it would appear to have value to everyone from the pros on down the ladder to the local weekend warrior.

    This is a cycling forum dennis, so it's not unreasonable to be talking about weights specifically in relation to cycling performance. I'm sure there are good cases for weight training in other sports, but there is no evidence (unless you can find any that hasn't already been shot down - good luck) to suggest that weight training for cycling performance is anything other than neutral, or possibly even detrimental. In that sense, what other sports do is, frankly, irrelevant. Wrestling ffs...be serious.

    Let's try another tact. In your opinion is there any other kind of exercise that might benefit a cyclist?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Once upon a time, in one of these interminable threads on leg strength, someone engaged with the question and changed his mind about the benefit of leg strength work. My, it was even a thread where P_Tucker got all reasonable and polite (for a while) - but these things happen when someone is actually prepared to engage with the science, rather than just relying on personal anecdote.

    I still haven't quite worked out why each one of these threads get so heated - the only conclusion I can come to is that it's a science v. faith (personal anecdote) issue, and it's very hard to argue logically with faith.

    Well, it is a forum and people very often do get passionate about their beliefs. It might get pretty boring if one person asked a question, then someone answered it(right ,wrong, or in between), and everyone else said "Ya, that's cool". There is such a thing as right and wrong and people have always and will always argue their viewpoint. Hence there are forums.
  • ooermissus
    ooermissus Posts: 811
    OP just wanted to know if going to the gym would wreck his knees.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,270
    dennisn wrote:
    Well, it is a forum and people very often do get passionate about their beliefs. It might get pretty boring if one person asked a question, then someone answered it(right ,wrong, or in between), and everyone else said "Ya, that's cool". There is such a thing as right and wrong and people have always and will always argue their viewpoint. Hence there are forums.
    But it just gets tedious when there's no proper engagement with the science, and we have to go over the same stuff over and over. At least in the thread I quoted some people actually responded directly with each other and the science offered, rather than just contradicting each other with personal anecdote and then trying to move the target because they didn't have a proper counter-argument to the science.
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    dennisn wrote:

    Let's try another tact. In your opinion is there any other kind of exercise that might benefit a cyclist?

    Tack.

    Pedaling technique drills?

    (Runs for cover)!!!!!

    :D:D:D
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    ooermissus wrote:
    OP just wanted to know if going to the gym would wreck his knees.

    FWIW that's a question that none of us can answer. Or even attempt to mount an argument one way or another. :?
    On the other hand whether or not going to the gym will help. Now that subject has some meat on it.
  • bernithebiker
    bernithebiker Posts: 4,148
    dennisn wrote:
    Now that subject has some meat on it.

    Unlike Chris Froome then.
  • ooermissus
    ooermissus Posts: 811
    dennisn wrote:
    ooermissus wrote:
    OP just wanted to know if going to the gym would wreck his knees.

    FWIW that's a question that none of us can answer. Or even attempt to mount an argument one way or another. :?
    On the other hand whether or not going to the gym will help. Now that subject has some meat on it.

    Help what? People rush in to have the same argument they've had on the training forum a few thousand times, when it's clear the OP's objectives are quite different from the ones they assume. Mine too, by the way.
  • wheelie-bin
    wheelie-bin Posts: 124
    I've went from squatting 220kg (powerlifting @ 15 stone, 5ft8 ) to road cycling. Granted the strength is useful for short sharp climbs but strength and endurance use different muscle fibers and it's hit me like a brick wall trying to adapt from using one to another.

    So yes strength will assist in making you a better cyclist but putting miles in will probably make you even better, in my opinion of course :)
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    I've went from squatting 220kg (powerlifting @ 15 stone, 5ft8 ) to road cycling. Granted the strength is useful for short sharp climbs but strength and endurance use different muscle fibers and it's hit me like a brick wall trying to adapt from using one to another.

    So yes strength will assist in making you a better cyclist but putting miles in will probably make you even better, in my opinion of course :)
    And you don't even know if the ability you gained to do short sharp climbs from your weight training is really a product of strength as such - by training to do the powerlifting you will have (intentionally or unintentionally) trained a bunch of general fitness systems (blood supply to the muscles, mitochondrial density etc) which are also useful for cycling, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have trained them more efficiently by just doing short sharp climbs rather than lifting.
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