What FTP needed to compete in 2/3/4 races?

Herbsman

I can do 4.4w/kg for an hour and have been told by a fellow racer who also trains with power that I have good 20min, 5min and 1min power output. However I struggle to keep up during 2/3/4 races even when fresh, despite being careful to stay out of the wind and save energy in other ways e.g. using other people to move up the bunch, going to the front before long hills so I can climb at my own pace etc. I also struggle to maintain power outputs that I know I can do :?

Do I just need to HTFU or do I need to train more to increase my power output?

okgo

w/kg not relevant for most uk racing as its so flat, so perhaps better to tell us the actual figure. For instance if you were 80kg and had FTP of 350, I'd expect you to be absoloutley fine based on the 2/3 races I have been doing, however if you were 59kg and had a 260w FTP yes I could see how you may run into problems.

Herbsman

330/75

GiantMike

I'm 315/75

I'm generally fine in 3/4 races but I do struggle when the terrain gets lumpy. I think the FTP reference is a bit of a red herring as I've never been close to it in a race. For me, the issue is getting dropped if I can't manage the surges or recover between them. When I started looking at powertap data last year I realised that crits are about (very) hard bursts for short periods and a lot of medium-paced sitting-in between them.

What are your 1, 5 and 20 min power outputs? How quickly do you get fatigued?

Setarkos

Most races are not so much about threshold power.
You need to be good in the ranges 10"-30" and 1'-3' imo. (Few races maybe 3'-5')
Also try to incorporate bursts into Sweet-Spot-Workouts. There are several workouts trying to mimic attacks.
Try to increase the number of matches (as in burning a match).

What is you AP/NP compared to other riders doing the same races? Maybe you are not as efficient as you think. Quite often you can save more energy if you kick hard initially (out of the corner or following an attack) instead of steadily upping the power.

It might also be helpful if you can more accurately describe the race situation when you get dropped or fall off the front.

Herbsman

I normally get dropped on the last climb of a 2/3/4 road race (usually 70 miles), these are usually 1min climbs. do you reckon i need to do more 'hour of power' type efforts? or just more more reps of 1min intervals

okgo

Remember everything helps, the higher your FTP the fresher you will be at the end, the better you hide in the wheels the fresher you will be, its not always as straight forward as - I get dropped on 1 min climb, my 1 min power must be poor...

Setarkos

okgo wrote:

Remember everything helps, the higher your FTP the fresher you will be at the end, the better you hide in the wheels the fresher you will be, its not always as straight forward as - I get dropped on 1 min climb, my 1 min power must be poor...

Exactly and many people who train using power only focus on FTP.

@Herbsman
Do you do 1-3min intervals at all? How do they fit in your power profile? What's you PB for 1min?

Remember it's about specificity!
Hour of Power doesn't really resemble any race I've ever seen - base power is way to high.
I don't have my copy of Allen/Coggan's book with me but there is a lot on burning matches and increase the number of matches in your matchbox. IIRC there is also a good deal of L6 workouts, workouts to mimic an attack and to back it up. 20/10-intervals on a hill might work for you...

Do compare AP and NP to other (more successful) people to see if you could save more energy during the race.
In the end it is a lot about positioning and following the right wheel.
Try to learn from your mistakes: Do you go with the first attack and then fade? Do you get dropped immediately? Do you lose your position going into the final kms?

alihisgreat

Herbsman wrote:

I normally get dropped on the last climb of a 2/3/4 road race (usually 70 miles), these are usually 1min climbs. do you reckon i need to do more 'hour of power' type efforts? or just more more reps of 1min intervals

If its at the end of a 70 mile race then perhaps your FTP isn't the issue, its your FTP after already racing 70 miles that's the issue?

napoleond

Specificity of training. Maybe you need to look at 3 hrs tempo pushing it hard on climbs then doing some lvl5/6 efforts at the end on your training rides.

amaferanga

Herbsman wrote:

I normally get dropped on the last climb of a 2/3/4 road race (usually 70 miles), these are usually 1min climbs. do you reckon i need to do more 'hour of power' type efforts? or just more more reps of 1min intervals

How does your 1min power on these climbs compare to your 1min max? What about on the final climb when you're getting dropped?

Sounds like you might just be lacking a bit of race fitness because your ftp should be plenty for a 2/3/4 race. If your short duration power is rubbish then either work on it or ride to your strengths and don't just sit in the bunch until the final kick up the hill.

Herbsman

TBH I haven't really focused on short duration efforts, I did a fair bit of 2 x 20 on the turbo and 5 x 5min climbs in the dark in Dec, but a quick look through Golden Cheetah shows that since the end of January I've just been 'going out riding'/'getting the miles in' as opposed to regular 'proper' training sessions. Only done a couple of 2min hill repeat sessions!

ric/rstsport

Herbsman wrote:

I can do 4.4w/kg for an hour and have been told by a fellow racer who also trains with power that I have good 20min, 5min and 1min power output. However I struggle to keep up during 2/3/4 races even when fresh, despite being careful to stay out of the wind and save energy in other ways e.g. using other people to move up the bunch, going to the front before long hills so I can climb at my own pace etc. I also struggle to maintain power outputs that I know I can do :?

Do I just need to HTFU or do I need to train more to increase my power output?

i don't know whether you need to train more. there is insufficient info to provide an answer, but

1) at a lower FTP (W/kg) with a lower mass i generally finished in the top 20 of most races (1/2/3, 2/3, E/1/2)

2) do you know if your scales are accurate? Perhaps your weight is different to what you think?

3) is your power meter accurately calibrated? Please do not say you zero the offset every ride - that isn't calibrating it.

4) perhaps your position is appalling and your CdA is very high?

Obviously, i have no specific idea about your biking, just throwing out some points!

ric

Setarkos

Herbsman wrote:

TBH I haven't really focused on short duration efforts, I did a fair bit of 2 x 20 on the turbo and 5 x 5min climbs in the dark in Dec, but a quick look through Golden Cheetah shows that since the end of January I've just been 'going out riding'/'getting the miles in' as opposed to regular 'proper' training sessions. Only done a couple of 2min hill repeat sessions!

I think you just need to do some specific training. Not so much hill reps in quick succession - that's more of an L5-workout but hard 1min efforts with plenty of rest in between. 30/30s or 20/10s can also be helpful.
When you do 1-2min efforts make sure you keep a high steady pace but have something left in the last 10s - that's where a race is won.
You can also train to use metabolise lactate more efficiently because contrary to popular belief lactate can actually benefit muscular performance.
Quoting a work-out suggestions from a German forum:
i) 30" attack (L6) and then 3-4min @105% - 10-15min rest interval (3 reps)
ii) 2-3' L5 and then 3-5min @105% - 10-15min rest interval (4 reps)

Essentially do whatever feels good and you think is specific to the races you do and do more short term efforts. Unless your a power house with >5W/kg it's very hard to ride away on you own, finding a break is more experience, tactic and luck. You can win races with an FTP of <4W/kg it's not a mountain time trial after all

ollie51

okgo wrote:

if you were 59kg and had a 260w FTP yes I could see how you may run into problems.

So, If I have an ftp of 255ish and weigh 57kg it's conceivable I should struggle on flat courses i.e. every race in east anglia?

Setarkos

ollie51 wrote:

okgo wrote:

So, If I have an ftp of 255ish and weigh 57kg it's conceivable I should struggle on flat courses i.e. every race in east anglia?

(Assuming you're not being sarcastic)

If you know how to move in the bunch and your good at short efforts, you should be fine but you will have to be more economical than someone with a higher total FTP.
Of course someone heavier with the same power to weight ratio and similar CdA will have an advantage but racing is still not done on tacx virtual reality ...

Only one way to find out though

ollie51

Setarkos wrote:

ollie51 wrote:

okgo wrote:

If you know how to move in the bunch and your good at short efforts, you should be fine but you will have to be more economical than someone with a higher total FTP.
Only one way to find out though

Define 'short efforts'. Please!

I did a 2/3/4 RR the other day but got shelled out the back after 20 minutes, although I think that was down to how fatigued from training I was. Reckon I still would have struggled if I was fresh and well rested - despite the fact I would have been putting out big numbers (in the context of w/kg and 2/3/4 racing). Course was v flat.

ric/rstsport

back, a few years ago, i had data from a rabobank rider who was riding the TdF. on one of the stages he required 98 W to stay in the lead group on a flat stage. that is not a type it's ninety eight watts. from memory he weighed a few more kg than you.

In other words with good skills you should be able to ride in a bunch and get by with minimal power. there are a few petite ladies who are smaller than you, with less power, who ride men's 2/3/4 races who can stay in the bunch (and challenge).

ric

ollie51

Hmmm... I only swung a leg over a road bike for the first time a few days before the tdf last year, so it could well be the case that I lack the experience required to ride economically/efficiently.

alihisgreat

From what I've read, and from my limited race experience, the first 20mins is the toughest bit of the race - I'd just put it down to tired legs, and make sure you're warmed up and ready to start hard next time.

Setarkos

ollie51 wrote:

Define 'short efforts'. Please!

I did - see above.

ollie51 wrote:

I did a 2/3/4 RR the other day but got shelled out the back after 20 minutes, although I think that was down to how fatigued from training I was. Reckon I still would have struggled if I was fresh and well rested - despite the fact I would have been putting out big numbers (in the context of w/kg and 2/3/4 racing). Course was v flat.

It would make sense to look for races that suit your abilities, ie. are hillier. Although at 4,4W/kg you might still find it hard to compete to be honest.
In a flat race you need experience at positioning etc. Do a few races, join a club, learn from more experienced riders - it's hard to speed up that process. Some have a talent for it others need more time to learn the skills but you will only learn them when you race. If you can keep working on your threshold - if you get close to 5W/kg (and given that after less than a year you're at 4,4W/kg already that might very well be in range) then you should have a real good shot at hillier races.
Also try to be patient and not to demanding - race a few 3/4s in the beginning maybe. It might take 1 or 2 more years until you're successful.
Have fun riding this year and structure your training for next year. It sounds as if you have a power meter so you have the ideal tool to do so. Theory is provided by the same books that are always mentioned and also on uncountably many threads here.
If you don't have a power meter don't worry about it - Eddy Mercks never used one during his career

Setarkos

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

From what I've read, and from my limited race experience, the first 20mins is the toughest bit of the race - I'd just put it down to tired legs, and make sure you're warmed up and ready to start hard next time.

Sounds like you've never made it to the last 20mins :P

alihisgreat

Setarkos wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

From what I've read, and from my limited race experience, the first 20mins is the toughest bit of the race - I'd just put it down to tired legs, and make sure you're warmed up and ready to start hard next time.

Sounds like you've never made it to the last 20mins :P

ooooooo cutting

ollie51

Setarkos wrote:

ollie51 wrote:

Define 'short efforts'. Please!

I did - see above.

ollie51 wrote:

I did a 2/3/4 RR the other day but got shelled out the back after 20 minutes, although I think that was down to how fatigued from training I was. Reckon I still would have struggled if I was fresh and well rested - despite the fact I would have been putting out big numbers (in the context of w/kg and 2/3/4 racing). Course was v flat.

It would make sense to look for races that suit your abilities, ie. are hillier. Although at 4,4W/kg you might still find it hard to compete to be honest.
In a flat race you need experience at positioning etc. Do a few races, join a club, learn from more experienced riders - it's hard to speed up that process. Some have a talent for it others need more time to learn the skills but you will only learn them when you race. If you can keep working on your threshold - if you get close to 5W/kg (and given that after less than a year you're at 4,4W/kg already that might very well be in range) then you should have a real good shot at hillier races.
Also try to be patient and not to demanding - race a few 3/4s in the beginning maybe. It might take 1 or 2 more years until you're successful.
Have fun riding this year and structure your training for next year. It sounds as if you have a power meter so you have the ideal tool to do so. Theory is provided by the same books that are always mentioned and also on uncountably many threads here.
If you don't have a power meter don't worry about it - Eddy Mercks never used one during his career

Yeah, my ftp is never going to win any races..

But I can do >10w/kg for a minute and >20w/kg for 5secs... My thinking is that of I can be around for the finish, with something left in the tank I may be able to grab some points.

I reckon I'll get to 4.6-8w/kg by the end of July/August, without much deliberate focus on training ftp. XC is my main discipline, but once my a levels are over i'll be able to dedicate more time to training geared towards road racing and next season it will be my main focus. At the minute I only get average about 8 hours a week in during the season , It's all I reasonably have time to do.

Setarkos

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

ooooooo cutting

Sorry, just teasing ya

But honestly, there are so many variables. If you could say anything in general then that the start and the end of a race are toughest (the end being considerably tougher) - but there are too many exceptions and variables.
It depend on the course, the wind, attacks etc.
Normally once you reach the level where you normally stay in the bunch until the end, you get dropped when you least expect it. Last time I got dropped was when I was comfortably in the first 30 of about 100 riders and there was a small break with a small so smooth riding - we made a turn got a crosswind, I didn't accelerate hard enough found myself at the back and had no chance of getting back in there even though I had hardly invested anything...

There is a guy I sometimes race with and we have similar physique and ftp etc. but he manages to always have a considerably lower NP at every race I do with him and I haven't figured out why. I consider myself a fairly economical rider (I'm fairly light and tall so at a disadvantage on flat courses, too) but I've ridden entire races on my mates wheel and he still had about 30W less afterwards...

One of the secrets is to know when to go hard and then go really hard. If you follow an attack get to the wheel as quick as you can because then you start saving energy earlier. If you get out of a corner don't hold back and keep your position so that you stay where you want to be and save energy instead of wasting it making up positions etc.

One more (a former East German rider told me this): If you have one of those compressions, ie. ~200m downhill ~200m uphill - go hard on the downhill section at a high cadence that way you carry over momentum into the climb. When everybody else coasts down the downhill they have to start going hard on the bottom of the uphill section when you save a few seconds shifting 1 or 2 gears up and when you start going hard everybody else is fading already.

Setarkos

ollie51 wrote:

But I can do >10w/kg for a minute and >20w/kg for 5secs... My thinking is that of I can be around for the finish, with something left in the tank I may be able to grab some points.

Those are extremely good efforts (I can match your 5sec but not your 1min)! Of course doing those at the end of a race is a different story and this is where you saving energy will be important.
Your 1min-power makes for an excellent uphill sprint but if you have a good wheel with 20W/kg you will be able to get around most bigger sprinters if you go very late (~70-50m from the finish maybe - never measured it) - that's what I like to do.

Just keeping racing and I think you will soon get decent results. Try to find hillier races - ideally with an uphill finish but not too many step hills before and race a few 3/4s

ollie51

Setarkos wrote:

ollie51 wrote:

But I can do >10w/kg for a minute and >20w/kg for 5secs... My thinking is that of I can be around for the finish, with something left in the tank I may be able to grab some points.

Those are extremely good efforts (I can match your 5sec but not your 1min)! Of course doing those at the end of a race is a different story and this is where you saving energy will be important.
Your 1min-power makes for an excellent uphill sprint but if you have a good wheel with 20W/kg you will be able to get around most bigger sprinters if you go very late (~70-50m from the finish maybe - never measured it) - that's what I like to do.

Just keeping racing and I think you will soon get decent results. Try to find hillier races - ideally with an uphill finish but not too many step hills before and race a few 3/4s

Thanks!
Basically all of the very few points I have for road racing are from Hog Hill, I'd be quite happy if the hoggenberg were made twice as long. I've not had a chance to properly 'unleash' my sprint on it yet, which I developed over the winter. I know using weight training isn't well regarded on here but it definitely helped. My FTP developed in line with the weight gain, and went from being 850watts for 5" to over 1100.

Unfortunately there aren't many, if any other circuits (crit or RR) around here that finish on a decent incline.

Setarkos

You'll be able to do well at Hog Hill once you figure out to move in the pack.
Train to increase the number of matches in your mathbox - racing is never about steady efforts but about recovering well between bursts and being able to do them over and over. Analyse your races to figure out why exactly you've been dropped.
Good luck!

jibberjim

I'm astonished you're not getting better results than that, most racing in the south east is heavily biased towards good 1 minute numbers, and those with enough skill at avoiding work or the FTP to be there at the decisive points to use the 1 minute do well. And I've seen plenty of 2/3's with lots less than 4.6w/kg FTP.

Or are you very light? Sub 60kg?

Setarkos

He is 57kg and doesn't have much experience racing...

ollie51

It's probably also worth considering that my power to CDA ratio will be fairly abysmal. I'm 178cm and have very broad shoulders in relation and couple that with weight very little. Only saving grace is my position on the bike is near perfect, from a bio-mechanical perspective. I still get blown about like a piece of paper on a windy day. My observation is that breakaways in 2/3/4 races in east anglia only really succeed when it's windy.

As for match burning, I race a lot of XC which is basically pedal hard in L5 or 6 for 1-5 minutes, and then aim to go into the red before the downhill which you can then free wheel down with the odd burst at l7 then do it x more times - so I'm hoping my ability when it comes to repetition of efforts is at least reasonable. My theory is that my body isn't used to recovering like you do in a road race, where you recover whilst still putting out some form of effort, as opposed to xc where you're trying not to crash into that tree whilst recovering.