A23 or H Plus Son Archetype

APIII

http://www.justridingalong.com

Camcycle1974

mroli wrote:

And if the prices were same/pretty much similar - would you buy a handmade made to measure suit or a suit off the peg?

Totally agree.

Apart from they are not the same. Krysiums for example are £500 most places. You can get a hell of a lot for £500 in a hand built set.

rudivoller22

Thanks I will have a look at them. If you had a budget of 450 would you go for the archetype/miche or could I get a better set paying that bit more? Hope hubs seem reasonable. Should I be considering any other rims?

NWLondoner

Oh well. after starting this thread off i've hit a curve ball and just ordered the following

DT415 Front and Rear.Record Hubs with a Shimano Free-hub and laced with black laser spokes.

Decided that a 23mm rim would be just too tight in my frame.

Great advice from you all but especially from The Cycle Clinic who just got my business.

rudivoller22

This just gets more and more difficult!! Contacted 2 wheel builders that have been recommended on here who both told me they would not use the h plus son rim at all as dont rate them. Also wouldn't use the miche hubs. So almost back to square one!! One recommended velocity rims which the other said were junk, one recommended novatec hubs but was told they wouldn't last!! Have also contacted Harry rowland an justridingalong but no reply yet. I'm guessing I will get even more options. The mind boggles! Mavic cxp33 have been recommended a couple of times too. Any thoughts on them?

Camcycle1974

What reasons did they give? Every review of the Archetype I have seen has been positive including those who ride them. The two wheelbuilders on this thread both use them a lot. I would take it all with a pinch of salt. cxp 33 is an old Mavic rim and about the same weight as the Archetype but not 23mm. The two builders you have spoken to probably have an agenda of some sort. Have you read Ugo's blog? A mine of information on all things wheel related without any bias.

on-yer-bike

rudivoller22 wrote:

This just gets more and more difficult!! Contacted 2 wheel builders that have been recommended on here who both told me they would not use the h plus son rim at all as dont rate them. Also wouldn't use the miche hubs. So almost back to square one!! One recommended velocity rims which the other said were junk, one recommended novatec hubs but was told they wouldn't last!! Have also contacted Harry rowland an justridingalong but no reply yet. I'm guessing I will get even more options. The mind boggles! Mavic cxp33 have been recommended a couple of times too. Any thoughts on them?

They're Chinese for F**ks sake!

itboffin

to add my 2p to the weight/spoke count debate, i'm pretty sure now I made a mistake by going 24/20 on a pair of handbuilt Alpha 340 tubless clinchers, they ride perfectly and feel great but I cant get it out of my mind that even the slightest bump will see me walking home.

No good when my plan for them had been to do the Marmotte this year, i think i'll stick to something more robust.

ugo.santalucia

rudivoller22 wrote:

This just gets more and more difficult!! Contacted 2 wheel builders that have been recommended on here who both told me they would not use the h plus son rim at all as dont rate them. Also wouldn't use the miche hubs. So almost back to square one!! One recommended velocity rims which the other said were junk, one recommended novatec hubs but was told they wouldn't last!! Have also contacted Harry rowland an justridingalong but no reply yet. I'm guessing I will get even more options. The mind boggles! Mavic cxp33 have been recommended a couple of times too. Any thoughts on them?

Each one is biased, each one has an agenda. It is mostly about relationships between builders and suppliers... a bad rim might mean one that is a pain to get.
I have build about 30-40 sets of Archetype over the past six months... all happy.
I find CXP 33 nothing special, occasionally had a faulty one with missing eyelets... nothing to wow about them... I have one with exploded brake track in my garden, do you want it?

EDIT: Both H plus Son and Velocity are imported from BLB, which have a different approach to distribution/retail from others and have a patchy supply of rims... maybe some doesn't like it? I personally don't care and actually enjoy going to BLB and have a chat with the guys there... their business model is none of my business... but I do like their rims

rudivoller22

One just said the archetypes were junk, the other just said he had a few break so doesn't touch them anymore. Harry rowland also said he wouldn't use h plus son rims or miche hubs but didn't say why in email. Going to give him a bell tomorrow to discuss. He recommended novatec SL hubs and mavic rims. Justridingalong haven't got back to me yet.

ugo.santalucia

rudivoller22 wrote:

One just said the archetypes were junk, the other just said he had a few break so doesn't touch them anymore. Harry rowland also said he wouldn't use h plus son rims or miche hubs but didn't say why in email. Going to give him a bell tomorrow to discuss. He recommended novatec SL hubs and mavic rims. Justridingalong haven't got back to me yet.

Novatec light hubs (the 291/482 ones) have bearings that last about 1000 miles if you use them in Great Britain... they are good quality according to Harry then?
I have built a dozen of sets last year... they have all new bearings by now... a couple even new free hubs

As for the Archetype breaking... probably potholes... it can happen... as I said I have a little graveyard of Mavic rims outside... should I conclude they are rubbish too? A couple of those carry Harry Rowland stickers, incidentally...

rudivoller22

This is kind of my point, different wheel builders all well respected giving me polar opposite views on the same product and I don't really have the knowledge to know what the deal is. That why I mentioned its probably easier to buy shimano or something that at least has some quality control. I really want to get some good handbuilts but I'm more confused than ever now!!

ugo.santalucia

rudivoller22 wrote:

This is kind of my point, different wheel builders all well respected giving me polar opposite views on the same product and I don't really have the knowledge to know what the deal is. That why I mentioned its probably easier to buy shimano or something that at least has some quality control. I really want to get some good handbuilts but I'm more confused than ever now!!

Your problem is that you are listening to too many opinions... if you like the Archetype, buy with confidence. Beside the scaremongery of people with an agenda and a preferred supplier that give them a godo deal on Mavic, they are very good rims... there are loads of people happy on this forum with their Archetype and yes, if you use 23 mm tyres and go along canal paths, you are more likely to damage them, than if you use a narrower rim like CXP 33.
Don't go along canal paths, or if you do, use the tyres designed to go off road.

As for the hand built route, I have yet to met someone who regretted going that route

NWLondoner

^^^^ what he said
Loads of positive reviews on archetype rims so go for them. They may not last many winters as they are thinner rims but very strong.

TBH mavic are old school and not worth the money or reputation any more.

Velocity A23 were a good idea but seem to be too many negative reports.

Just look at my posts to see how I swayed between them and in the end went with a lighter rim but higher spoke count.

mabbo

Try this guy, a bit north of you. Ask for Malcolm.

Built me a cracking pair last year for £285. DT swiss rims, Sapim spokes, Miche hubs.

The Cycle Clinic

Unit 1 Clockhouse Farm

Cavendish Lane

Glemsford

Suffolk

CO10 7QA

01787280535

07890788212

www.thecycleclinic.co.uk

workshop@thecylcleclinic.co.uk

Cytech Accredited

ACT member

ugo.santalucia

NWLondoner wrote:

Velocity A23 were a good idea but seem to be too many negative reports.

Which negative reports? More scaremongery from the web? Some hipster who used them to jump down staircases? Some builders who have used them and raved about them, then found one that was less than perfect, hence they are are crap? I have never had a problem with any Velocity rim... A 23, Aero Head, Deep V... they are all good rims

apreading

Yeah - all I can see on the interweb is the occasional anecdotal 'this yyy is rubbish' or 'my mates xxx broke' which you get for EVERYTHING you research on the interweb. The A23 and Archetype both seem equally solid although the archetype seems to be the current favourite of the two, and I was told is a little better because the join is welded rather than just pinned ad the finish is a little 'nicer'? However the A23 is about 45g lighter per rim isnt it, if thats important?

From what I can tell, either would be a great choice.

I cant decide which I want either - although the Archetype seems to be unavailable for a couple of weeks from most places right now.

I also cant decide between American Classic hubs or DT 350s (one seems to be quieter, the other easier to maintain).

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

Yeah - all I can see on the interweb is the occasional anecdotal 'this yyy is rubbish' or 'my mates xxx broke' which you get for EVERYTHING you research on the interweb. The A23 and Archetype both seem equally solid although the archetype seems to be the current favourite of the two, and I was told is a little better because the join is welded rather than just pinned ad the finish is a little 'nicer'? However the A23 is about 45g lighter per rim isnt it, if thats important?

From what I can tell, either would be a great choice.

I cant decide which I want either - although the Archetype seems to be unavailable for a couple of weeks from most places right now.

I also cant decide between American Classic hubs or DT 350s (one seems to be quieter, the other easier to maintain).

only 25 grams lighter in the real world.
Actually a joint like A 23 is stronger than a welded one, just looks less well finished and it has a tiny bump that Archetype doesn't have, but strong rims are joined that way

Crozza

I've posted this before but some may find it interesting

http://fairwheelbikes.com/c/products/20 ... undup.html

personally I think people worry far too much about rim choice - I would just go with the one that looks nicest

rudivoller22

That's really interesting thanks. Can't seem to find any major complaints other than from a couple of wheel builders on the archetypes so may just go for that as seem to get more positive reviews than the velocity rims. SL23 tempting though from that article.
24/28 spokes just need to agree hubs now!

TooOldForThis

I've been looking at the same rims after it was suggested that hand built are a better option than going factory wheels. I think I'll be opting for the A23 although I'm sure I wouldn't notice the difference between any of them.

My intention is to match them with DT swiss 350 hubs and I'll probably opt for a 32/28 setup.

Now the only choice is whether to get them built or try myself. Tempted to try it myself although am slightly concerned that i'll end up in a ditch when they collapse

ugo.santalucia

TooOldForThis wrote:

I've been looking at the same rims after it was suggested that hand built are a better option than going factory wheels. I think I'll be opting for the A23 although I'm sure I wouldn't notice the difference between any of them.

My intention is to match them with DT swiss 350 hubs and I'll probably opt for a 32/28 setup.

Now the only choice is whether to get them built or try myself. Tempted to try it myself although am slightly concerned that i'll end up in a ditch when they collapse

They won't collapse... they might go out of true slightly if you don't build them well, but they will hold... go for it... get some ACI Alpina spokes (around 20 pounds), so that when you have learned to do it better, you can just cut them off with no regrets and fit new, maybe lighter ones