A23 or H Plus Son Archetype

2

Comments

  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    on-yer-bike wrote:
    Why do Chris King and DT Swiss and other Calvin Klein brands make hubs that are too narrow for anything other than the shallowest rim? Don't they know what they are doing?

    Other way... they are designed to be optimal with deep rims. I never found that Calvin Klein 45 give any problem at all with shallow rims... DT 240 do... and as the Cycleclinic correctly points out they do require substantial spoking on the non drive side for stiffness (as well as for durability). But then again, I was the proud owner of a set of DT 240 with a DT 465 rim at the back and DT competition spokes both sides and the wheel was awesome...
    left the forum March 2023
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    Chris King should say that 'the R45 has been designed to be optimal with deep rims hence the narrow width of the rear hub flanges and if you are an out of date, poor die hard using anything less than a 35 mm rim go and use some cheap sh*t hubs because that's what you deserve.' :-)
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:

    Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

    I agree, there you go, I give you Hope too.. :wink:

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/366

    Stop tempting me! Got to sell my old cinelli steel to finance the wheels first. Grey with silver spokes and black hubs rather than all black might be more interesting. Black bike though. Has anyone got pics of the grey archetypes on a black frame?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:

    Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

    I agree, there you go, I give you Hope too.. :wink:

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/366

    Stop tempting me! Got to sell my old cinelli steel to finance the wheels first. Grey with silver spokes and black hubs rather than all black might be more interesting. Black bike though. Has anyone got pics of the grey archetypes on a black frame?

    selling a steel Cinelli? What's wrong with you... sell the other bike!
    left the forum March 2023
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:

    Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

    I agree, there you go, I give you Hope too.. :wink:

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/366

    Stop tempting me! Got to sell my old cinelli steel to finance the wheels first. Grey with silver spokes and black hubs rather than all black might be more interesting. Black bike though. Has anyone got pics of the grey archetypes on a black frame?

    selling a steel Cinelli? What's wrong with you... sell the other bike!

    Well, you may have a point. Come close to selling it a few times but could never quite do it. It rides beautifully but the bars are uncomfortable and it has a 150mm quill stem which is way too long. If I modified it a bit it may just fit better. A project maybe? I also love the Mavic 501's/Pro Open CD's it runs on. Much nicer than my "modern" wheels. Frame is 57cm seat tube and 56cm top tube which is a bit too big really but a shorter stem would sort that out.

    The hankering after the grey Archetypes is partly due to the fact that the grey Mavic rims with silver spokes look so nice on the old blue Cinelli frame.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Camcycle1974 wrote:

    Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

    I agree, there you go, I give you Hope too.. :wink:

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/366

    Stop tempting me! Got to sell my old cinelli steel to finance the wheels first. Grey with silver spokes and black hubs rather than all black might be more interesting. Black bike though. Has anyone got pics of the grey archetypes on a black frame?

    selling a steel Cinelli? What's wrong with you... sell the other bike!

    Well, you may have a point. Come close to selling it a few times but could never quite do it. It rides beautifully but the bars are uncomfortable and it has a 150mm quill stem which is way too long. If I modified it a bit it may just fit better. A project maybe? I also love the Mavic 501's/Pro Open CD's it runs on. Much nicer than my "modern" wheels. Frame is 57cm seat tube and 56cm top tube which is a bit too big really but a shorter stem would sort that out.

    The hankering after the grey Archetypes is partly due to the fact that the grey Mavic rims with silver spokes look so nice on the old blue Cinelli frame.

    Keep it.. get a shorter stem from Nitto (Brick Lane Bikes and Tokio fixed gear stock them)... if you have Cinelli bars you will need to change them or sand them down as they are 26.4 and not 26 mm, which is the standard clamp for quill stems... it is hardly a project, it will take you an hour top.
    I have 501 too, on Crono rims, they are ace!!
    left the forum March 2023
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    They are Cinelli bars which fit with the current quill stem. Has the diameter changed for quills? Trust me, any bike maintenance job becomes a project for me!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    They are Cinelli bars which fit with the current quill stem. Has the diameter changed for quills? Trust me, any bike maintenance job becomes a project for me!

    Cinelli bars liked to be different and had a 26.4 mm clamp, instead of 26, which was the standard. You either match it with a Cinelli stem form the era on Ebay or you get new bars matching another stem. You can machine them down, bout 0.4 mm is quite a lot and it is a project!!!
    left the forum March 2023
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    Ah, ok. Vintage Cinelli on Ebay will probably be expensive. Might just be cheaper to get new bars/stem.
  • crankycrank
    crankycrank Posts: 1,830
    Actually Cinelli started to offer their bars and stems in a 26.0 size as well as the 26.4 starting around the late 1990's so check to make sure which one you have.
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    Sorry to hijack but been reading with interest. Anyone know how much the archetype rims built with niche primato hubs would be? Probably 20/24 or 24/28? I'm 12.5 stone so would need to take advice on spoke count? I'm tempted by rs80s but like the idea of handbuilts if Incan get similar weight/strength/ quality etc. it's a mind field! Thanks
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    round about £275 plus postage.
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    Sorry meant to ask how much they would weigh?! Guessing about 1600g ish?
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    Yeah, right sort of ball park. That is what i have worked out on a 24/28 build on miche hubs with lasers and brass nipples.
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    Would they be as stiff (or stiffer) than the RS80s? Will be a bit heavier but balanced against easier to service. Am I in the right ballpark for a decent handbuild or should I consider any other options? Prob looking at budget of 450 tops
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    rudivoller22 wrote:
    Would they be as stiff (or stiffer) than the RS80s? Will be a bit heavier but balanced against easier to service. Am I in the right ballpark for a decent handbuild or should I consider any other options? Prob looking at budget of 450 tops

    Miles stiffer than the floppy Shimano... yes, you are thinking along the right lines.
    left the forum March 2023
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    is 20/24 wise at 12.5 stone?
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    on-yer-bike wrote:
    is 20/24 wise at 12.5 stone?

    No, not really. Depends on how trouble free you want the wheels to be. I am 12 stone and wouldn't consider less than 24/28.
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    So would 20/24 not be a good option for me? I only suggested that as I have bontrager race lite at the moment which have an even lower spoke count. 18/24.
    Should I maybe look at a stiffer rim? Don't want them too heavy as do a lot of hill riding but happy to take advice of I'm on wrong lines. LBS not much use as they build wheels but advised me to get the RS80s?!
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    rudivoller22 wrote:
    So would 20/24 not be a good option for me? I only suggested that as I have bontrager race lite at the moment which have an even lower spoke count. 18/24.
    Should I maybe look at a stiffer rim? Don't want them too heavy as do a lot of hill riding but happy to take advice of I'm on wrong lines. LBS not much use as they build wheels but advised me to get the RS80s?!

    It just depends on what you want. No wheel builder would recommend you have a wheel with a spoke count that low as its asking for trouble in the long term. Sure, they will build it but what is the fascination with dropping a few spokes to keep weight down whilst compromising reliability? Your bling, low spoke count wheels won't look so good when they keep popping spokes! A lighter rim/tyres with more spokes to retain stiffness would be a better way to go. Archetypes are stiff rims so you might get away with less spokes but why take the risk?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Camcycle1974 wrote:
    rudivoller22 wrote:
    So would 20/24 not be a good option for me? I only suggested that as I have bontrager race lite at the moment which have an even lower spoke count. 18/24.
    Should I maybe look at a stiffer rim? Don't want them too heavy as do a lot of hill riding but happy to take advice of I'm on wrong lines. LBS not much use as they build wheels but advised me to get the RS80s?!

    It just depends on what you want. No wheel builder would recommend you have a wheel with a spoke count that low as its asking for trouble in the long term. Sure, they will build it but what is the fascination with dropping a few spokes to keep weight down whilst compromising reliability? Your bling, low spoke count wheels won't look so good when they keep popping spokes! A lighter rim/tyres with more spokes to retain stiffness would be a better way to go. Archetypes are stiff rims so you might get away with less spokes but why take the risk?

    A spoke is 4-7 grams, add another gram for a brass nipple. The weight saving of a set of 20/24 over the equivalent 28/32 is ONLY 80-120 grams and ONLY 40-60 grams over a 24/28. 50 grams is 1/10 of a pack of pasta twirls... if someone thinks that makes a lot of difference... :roll:
    Generally speaking, a spoke on a 32 wheel last 2-3 times longer than the same spoke on a 24 wheel, like for like
    left the forum March 2023
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    Thanks Ugo. I'm not too caught up on weight from spokes. I meant more if I went for a stiffer rim I didn't want to go too heavy. Want to keep the rim as light as possible but obviously not compromising too much on stiffness. Apologies for all the obvious questions but it is a mind field of options and everyone I speak too seems to have a polar opposite opinion!! Are hope hubs much better for the extra money? Have pro3s on my mtb which have been great.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    rudivoller22 wrote:
    Thanks Ugo. I'm not too caught up on weight from spokes. I meant more if I went for a stiffer rim I didn't want to go too heavy. Want to keep the rim as light as possible but obviously not compromising too much on stiffness. Apologies for all the obvious questions but it is a mind field of options and everyone I speak too seems to have a polar opposite opinion!! Are hope hubs much better for the extra money? Have pro3s on my mtb which have been great.

    Stiffness and fatigue life are two different things... while you can have a stiff wheel at 20 or 24 spokes with the right rim, you are still left with a wheels which is boud to last less... spokes can be replaced, but when you go down to 20/24, you might actually not be able to ride the wheel if one breaks, due to the large deflection. So other than circuit racing-Richmond park lapping/ time trialling, or fully supported riding, low spoke count wheels are to be avoided always.

    I think 28 is always a good compromise for a rear wheel between low weight and durability/reliability.
    Hope PRO 3 have the same selas as the MTB version, therefore they are suited to our wet climate. There are reports of flanges failing, but I have never seen any and if the wheel is built properly, with correct pattern and tensions, they should last many years... they can also be butchered by a bad build, which is true for all CNC machined hubs, in fairness.
    I think Hope are good hubs, Uk made, if that matters to you and reasonably affordable.
    Among the budget hubs, I find Novatec 171/172 (also called Ambrosio) offer excellent value for money... bearings last and are very easy to replace. For something a bit sturdier (forged shell/ stronger freehub alloy) you can go for Miche too.
    You can always mix and match... get a Hope rear for quality and a Novatec front... it saves you 30 pounds or so... front hubs are much of a muchness, not worth spending too much money there
    left the forum March 2023
  • APIII
    APIII Posts: 2,010
    FWIW, I'm 12 stone and my archetypes are 28/32. Lots of people seem to be going for the lowest spoke count they can get away with, which strikes me as a slightly bizarre approach to wheel selection.
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    APIII wrote:
    FWIW, I'm 12 stone and my archetypes are 28/32. Lots of people seem to be going for the lowest spoke count they can get away with, which strikes me as a slightly bizarre approach to wheel selection.

    It's because we have all been brain-washed into thinking lighter=better
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    I basically want to balance something reasonably light but strong and durable which is always difficult. I think handbuilt is way forward but there is so many options I can see why people just buy off a shelf! Much easier!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    rudivoller22 wrote:
    I basically want to balance something reasonably light but strong and durable which is always difficult. I think handbuilt is way forward but there is so many options I can see why people just buy off a shelf! Much easier!

    1600-1700 grams is the right compromise you are looking for if you are average built
    left the forum March 2023
  • Camcycle1974
    Camcycle1974 Posts: 1,356
    rudivoller22 wrote:
    I basically want to balance something reasonably light but strong and durable which is always difficult. I think handbuilt is way forward but there is so many options I can see why people just buy off a shelf! Much easier!

    It's not easier really. Why go for an unknown quantity off the shelf when you can talk to someone, tell them your requirements, they advise you and build a wheel tailored to your needs? It's easier really when you think about it and you know exactly what you are getting. How do you know if a factory wheel will support your weight or how durable the hubs are?Have the spokes been tensioned evenly etc?
    Buying a set off the shelf is not an informed decision, more of a stab in the dark.
  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    And if the prices were same/pretty much similar - would you buy a handmade made to measure suit or a suit off the peg?
    http://www.georgesfoundation.org
    http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
    http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/
  • rudivoller22
    rudivoller22 Posts: 492
    I agree and if you live near a well respected wheel builder who will advise and build what's best for you and give you a great wheel then it's a no brainer. If like me you have no idea and your local wheel builder recommended rs80s it's more difficult. If you get a bad wheel builder then surely a bad handbuilt will be more likely to go wrong that a factory build.
    Can anyone recommend one of the online builders?

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