A23 or H Plus Son Archetype

NWLondoner

The rims on my Eastons look like they will not be lasting much longer plus i'm fed up at being blown all the place with the mid aero rims and bladed spokes.

My budget is quite tight but i do want a pair of handbuilts and for me factory wheels is just throwing money down the toilet.

I want a set that will last all seasons, be reliable and quite light.

I'm only 63kg so

I'm considering a build with either Velocity A23 rims or H Plus Son Archetype.

Hub wise they would be either Miche or Hope 3.

Probably go 28/28 with Laser spokes. Front radial and rear 3 cross.

Would you say i'm in the right ballpark?

I'm looking at buying from Just riding along.

cycleclinic

Go with the Miche hubs, bearing life is as long as the hope, weight is similar but the non drive side flange spacing is higher giveing a better bracing angle. NDS bracing angle is a big factor determining the stiffness of a build the higher it is the better within reason.

For you weight 28/28 will be fine with Miche hubs and laser spokes but so will a 24F/28R. I would not go with radial with a 28 spoke front wheel, leave that fro 24 spoke wheels. Just riding along do not stock the 24H front Miche hubs I do though in fact I have 24H front 28H rear pairs in black currently and 24F/28R silver pairs on order. I am not too sure else stocks them in this drilling as the distributor only imports 28/28 32/32 and 36/36 pairs. I get mine through straight from the Factory in Italy though the Miche U.K agent.

This is a wheel set I build I build as well in either drilling.

asprilla

The Archetypes look a lot better than the A23s if that makes any difference. I've got Archetypes on the spotless carbon and shiny Ti bikes and A23s on the grubby cyclocross.

NWLondoner

Hmm I do like the black rim but may go with the silver

ugo.santalucia

NWLondoner wrote:

Hmm I do like the black rim but may go with the silver

The silver looks very good on bikes with colours... red, blue or bare titanium metal bikes. Black or white bikes look best with the matt black or the grey rims

Here is me doing a bit of bike styling... 8)

NWLondoner

Are lasers strong enough for the rear? I've read conflicting reports.

Would D-Light black be a good compromise for the read

cycleclinic

Lasers can be used on both sides of rear wheel with success but it all depends on rider weight, riding style, stiffness of rim and most importantly non drive side bracing angle. If the latter is high enough then an 28 spoke rear wheel built with Laser spokes and an Archetype rim will be fine for many but not all.

Just as an example I use Laser spokes on my two main road bikes both side but on light weight DT Swiss RR415 and Kinlin XR-200 rims both with 28 spoke counts. I am 80kg and club standard rider and have pt alot of miles on these wheels and get no issues and no issues on the other wheels I have built this way. However this does not mean I use them in every wheelset as there many situations were they are not the best choice. For black spokes the cost difference between Laser and Race spokes is not significant but for silver spokes there is a much bigger gap. Use Lase spokes if you want to shed weight from the wheel if that is not a high priority then use Race spokes. The front wheel however is suitable for Laser spokes even for 95kg riders. The rear wheel is abit more weight sensitive but mainly the problems arise with riders (particlatly heavier ones) who also can kick out some serious Watts in these situations Race spokes are required to keep wheel flex down. Good spoke bracing angles (particularly NDS) is key though to good wheel stiffness and the Miche hubs are good for this.

Sapim D-light spokes are expensive, as expensive as black Laser spokes and for that reason I do not use. If Laser spokes are suitable for you then the Race spoke is not a whole lot heavier (lasers save 100g over 64 spokes compared to race spokes for 290mm lengths). The D-light spokes is also only available in limited spoke lengths so depending on the hub/rim/lacing combo the lengths you need may not exist. The D-light spoke was created for the MTB market as Laser are supposidly not for disc brake use. Funny how many have been using them in 26" MTB wheels for year withot issue.

I rambled a bit there. I hope that was not confsing. No hard and fast rules really.

NWLondoner

Would 240 or 7900 hubs also be a good alternative? With DT comp/rev 24/28 2 cross. The whole cup & cone v cartridge bearings argument leaves me more confused

ugo.santalucia

NWLondoner wrote:

Would 240 or 7900 hubs also be a good alternative? With DT comp/rev 24/28 2 cross. The whole cup & cone v cartridge bearings argument leaves me more confused

DT Swiss 350 are better for this type of build and they are even cheaper than the DT 240.
The 7900 are excellent of course

These were on DT 350 28 Holes, front is radial, but you get the idea... the nipples are blue plated brass

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/351

NWLondoner

Would you say 7900 cup and cone are worth the extra maintainers

ugo.santalucia

NWLondoner wrote:

Would you say 7900 cup and cone are worth the extra maintainers

Hard to say...

Camcycle1974

ugo.santalucia wrote:

NWLondoner wrote:

Would 240 or 7900 hubs also be a good alternative? With DT comp/rev 24/28 2 cross. The whole cup & cone v cartridge bearings argument leaves me more confused

DT Swiss 350 are better for this type of build and they are even cheaper than the DT 240.
The 7900 are excellent of course

These were on DT 350 28 Holes, front is radial, but you get the idea... the nipples are blue plated brass

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/351

Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

Shame the 105 hub does not come in a 28h drilling. I don't really want to go up to 32's as I would like the weight to be less than my current wheels (24/28 Giant PR2) Thinking of the Miche hubs. I assume the DT 350 is considerably more money? The silver spokes look good with the grey rims too. Re the elecroplated nipples is the plating durable and how much cost do they add compared to normal brass? Sorry for all the questions, just want to get my build spot on.

ugo.santalucia

Camcycle1974 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

NWLondoner wrote:

Would 240 or 7900 hubs also be a good alternative? With DT comp/rev 24/28 2 cross. The whole cup & cone v cartridge bearings argument leaves me more confused

DT Swiss 350 are better for this type of build and they are even cheaper than the DT 240.
The 7900 are excellent of course

These were on DT 350 28 Holes, front is radial, but you get the idea... the nipples are blue plated brass

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/351

Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

Shame the 105 hub does not come in a 28h drilling. I don't really want to go up to 32's as I would like the weight to be less than my current wheels (24/28 Giant PR2) Thinking of the Miche hubs. I assume the DT 350 is considerably more money? The silver spokes look good with the grey rims too. Re the elecroplated nipples is the plating durable and how much cost do they add compared to normal brass? Sorry for all the questions, just want to get my build spot on.

The plated brass nipples are kind of a joke... most of the plating wears off during the build, in contact with rim and spoke key, the rest will probably stay on for a while, but I wouldn't bother with them, really... get silver nipples.
DT 350 are considerably more than Miche, yes... pound for pound Miche are the ones to go for... but... I like the freehub system DT uses, completely different system from the pawls/ratchet... much more clever, easy to service without tools, very durable, great stuff... one of the very few innovations in cycling components in recent times in my view

NWLondoner

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

NWLondoner wrote:

Would 240 or 7900 hubs also be a good alternative? With DT comp/rev 24/28 2 cross. The whole cup & cone v cartridge bearings argument leaves me more confused

DT Swiss 350 are better for this type of build and they are even cheaper than the DT 240.
The 7900 are excellent of course

These were on DT 350 28 Holes, front is radial, but you get the idea... the nipples are blue plated brass

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/351

Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

Shame the 105 hub does not come in a 28h drilling. I don't really want to go up to 32's as I would like the weight to be less than my current wheels (24/28 Giant PR2) Thinking of the Miche hubs. I assume the DT 350 is considerably more money? The silver spokes look good with the grey rims too. Re the elecroplated nipples is the plating durable and how much cost do they add compared to normal brass? Sorry for all the questions, just want to get my build spot on.

The plated brass nipples are kind of a joke... most of the plating wears off during the build, in contact with rim and spoke key, the rest will probably stay on for a while, but I wouldn't bother with them, really... get silver nipples.
DT 350 are considerably more than Miche, yes... pound for pound Miche are the ones to go for... but... I like the freehub system DT uses, completely different system from the pawls/ratchet... much more clever, easy to service without tools, very durable, great stuff... one of the very few innovations in cycling components in recent times in my view

I've read conflicting reports about the ease of 240/350 servicing. A special tool is needed and many LBS won't touch them unless you purchased from them. I'd hate to get a set that is a PITA to get serviced.

The miches sound great for dry weather but only single seal and iquite frankly my local road flood so much that i'd rather have a hub set with greater sealing. So tied between 7900,240 or 350 :roll:

ugo.santalucia

NWLondoner wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

NWLondoner wrote:

Would 240 or 7900 hubs also be a good alternative? With DT comp/rev 24/28 2 cross. The whole cup & cone v cartridge bearings argument leaves me more confused

DT Swiss 350 are better for this type of build and they are even cheaper than the DT 240.
The 7900 are excellent of course

These were on DT 350 28 Holes, front is radial, but you get the idea... the nipples are blue plated brass

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/351

Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

Shame the 105 hub does not come in a 28h drilling. I don't really want to go up to 32's as I would like the weight to be less than my current wheels (24/28 Giant PR2) Thinking of the Miche hubs. I assume the DT 350 is considerably more money? The silver spokes look good with the grey rims too. Re the elecroplated nipples is the plating durable and how much cost do they add compared to normal brass? Sorry for all the questions, just want to get my build spot on.

The plated brass nipples are kind of a joke... most of the plating wears off during the build, in contact with rim and spoke key, the rest will probably stay on for a while, but I wouldn't bother with them, really... get silver nipples.
DT 350 are considerably more than Miche, yes... pound for pound Miche are the ones to go for... but... I like the freehub system DT uses, completely different system from the pawls/ratchet... much more clever, easy to service without tools, very durable, great stuff... one of the very few innovations in cycling components in recent times in my view

I've read conflicting reports about the ease of 240/350 servicing. A special tool is needed and many LBS won't touch them unless you purchased from them. I'd hate to get a set that is a PITA to get serviced.

The miches sound great for dry weather but only single seal and iquite frankly my local road flood so much that i'd rather have a hub set with greater sealing. So tied between 7900,240 or 350 :roll:

LBS these days don't want to do anything anymore... that is not representative. Thing is I have never had to replace a bearing on a DT hub, that is how good they are... the freehub is tools free.
The 240 don't build strong wheels with shallow rims, so take them off the list, at least the rear.
If you are on Shimano consider Hope... UK made, very good seals, nice hubs in all drillings and colours

cookiemonster

NWLondoner wrote:

I've read conflicting reports about the ease of 240/350 servicing. A special tool is needed and many LBS won't touch them unless you purchased from them. I'd hate to get a set that is a PITA to get serviced.

Two different things here which may be why reports are conflicting

1. Servicing the freehub mechanism is trivial in the extreme. It requires no tools as it comes apart by hand, and takes less than 5 minutes to take apart, clean, grease and reassemble the 5 (iirc) pieces. It's a great design.

2. Replacing the cartridge bearings requires special tools and is a more complex job. I've a couple of sets of wheels with dt240's and changed the bearings on the every day bike after 4 years just to be on the safe side. So, although its likely an LBS job for most people, its not something that is needed regularly.

jon

ugo.santalucia

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Ugo, those grey Archetypes are gorgeous! Was going to go for black but they might just have changed my mind.

I agree, there you go, I give you Hope too..

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/366

cycleclinic

The grey rims are lovely but on the miche hub the sealing may not look like much but is sufficent. The hubs are on my wet weather bike. Given the bearings are so big they do last even if riden in filth and floods.

Obviously the DT hubs have evn more durable bearings but they cost more and the difference in price buys alot of good quality bearings.

I also like DT hubs and there freehub system shame they are so expensive. The only reason why I do not use DT Swiss hubs now is not the tools needed (as that is just a one of cost and I love buying tools) but the 33.5mm NDS flange to centre distance. The bracing angle this gives is low which leads to poor lateral stiffness and necessitates the use of Race/competition spokes and stiff rims like the H plus son archetype. The NDS spoke bracing angle is a crictal part of lateral wheel stiffness. Light weight rims and thin spokes used with DT hubs leads to a very laterally flexible wheel. The Miche hub in contrast give a much higher NDS braing angle and thus a laterally stiffer wheel with the same components, this is always a good thing.

Unfortunatley DT Swiss 240, 350 and Chris King R45 hubs suffer from this NDS bracing angle issue and these are expensive hubs. Hope hubs are bit better in this regard but not as good as Miche, Campagnolo record, Novatec or Shimano hubs (except dura ace 7800, 7900 and 9000 hubs). This unfortunatley is a overlooked and important part of hub selection.

The reason why these expensive hubs use narrow NDS flange spacings is to give better tension balance however do this at the expensive of lateral stiffness is not a good idea in my view although reliable wheels can still be built with these hubs with stiff spokes and rims. It's just that that wheels built with a hub that gives good NDS bracing (miche novatec, shimano 105/ultegra) angles would be even stiffer laterally. Higher lateral stiffness from higher NDS bracing angles (7.4 degrees or more ideally) and lower NDS tension is a much better for spoke life and you can use lighter rims and spokes if that is applicable for the rider of it stiffer rims and stiker spokes maybe required also but at least you have the option. That has been my experience of building with hubs like DT Swiss and Chris King R45 hubs and it is also what simple physics tells me. Lateral stiffness is important as it determines the ammount of unloading of the non drive side (NDS) spokes, less lateral stiffness = more unloading = shorter spoke life all things being equal.

Sorry for another technical ramble but I think it is important.

NWLondoner

No, its good too see someone write with so much passion and technical knowledge. (god i sound like i'm on masterchef)

Tpearson

I hate these topics! Makes me want to buy some handbuilts!!

on-yer-bike

The CK R45 hubs have a large flange on the NDS to compensate for the narrow flange width.

wishitwasallflat

Tpearson wrote:

I hate these topics! Makes me want to buy some handbuilts!!

Makes me glad I did

cycleclinic

On yer bike. The R45 rear NDS flange is not large enough to make up for the narrow spacing, it helps (a little) but bracing angle is less than 7 degree on a Archetype rim (6.9 degrees to be precise) with an R45. If a Miche hub or a novatec hub is used then it will be 7.4 degrees. That difference is really quite big and the relationship between bracing angle and lateral stiffness is not a linear one. Flange diameter actually makes very little diference to bracing angle. Moving between 40mm NDS flange PCD and 60mm PCD makes about 0.1 degree difference in bracing angle. What large flanges do is increase tortional stiffness which is why you see track hubs and disc brake hubs with large flanges.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

On yer bike. The R45 rear NDS flange is not large enough to make up for the narrow spacing, it helps (a little) but bracing angle is less than 7 degree on a Archetype rim (6.9 degrees to be precise) with an R45. If a Miche hub or a novatec hub is used then it will be 7.4 degrees. That difference is really quite big and the relationship between bracing angle and lateral stiffness is not a linear one. Flange diameter actually makes very little diference to bracing angle. Moving between 40mm NDS flange PCD and 60mm PCD makes about 0.1 degree difference in bracing angle. What large flanges do is increase tortional stiffness which is why you see track hubs and disc brake hubs with large flanges.

I am not advocating for hubs that cost the best part of a monkey... but... thing is, a lot of people are very happy with "Calvin Klein" hubs, are you going to tell them to replace them with some Miche to gain half a degree of bracing angle? :roll:

APIII

I have to say, despite being a lifelong fan of campag hubs, my R45/Archetypes are probably the best wheels I own right now. I can't think of any negatives.

NWLondoner

APIII wrote:

I have to say, despite being a lifelong fan of campag hubs, my R45/Archetypes are probably the best wheels I own right now. I can't think of any negatives.

R45 cost :shock:

on-yer-bike

I bought a pair of wheels off this forum, brand new. Archetypes on R45s laced with Wheelsmith spokes. Thought I had a bargain only to realize they were laced wrong so Paulo rebuilt them for me. Bit of a disaster. Now Im reading here that this combination of rim and hub is a no no! A lot of a disaster! Originally I was going for Record hubs, would they have been OK? :-(

ugo.santalucia

on-yer-bike wrote:

I bought a pair of wheels off this forum, brand new. Archetypes on R45s laced with Wheelsmith spokes. Thought I had a bargain only to realize they were laced wrong so Paulo rebuilt them for me. Bit of a disaster. Now Im reading here that this combination of rim and hub is a no no! A lot of a disaster! Originally I was going for Record hubs, would they have been OK? :-(

Scaremongery, there will always be someone telling you your bike/wheels are wrong....

There is nothing wrong with Calvin Klein 45 hubs on Archetype rims, absolutely nothing wrong, if the spokes are fitted in the right holes...
NB: Worth pointing out the disaster was made by a guy in Boston... who fitted the spokes in the wrong holes...

NB: and probably also worth pointing out that Wheelsmith spokes have nothing to do with Wheelsmith who builds wheels in Scotland

cycleclinic

I never said that R45 hubs and archetype rims are a no no combination. I am also not scaremongering or trying to sugest that R45 hubs make bad wheels, as the rims a spoke selction as well as spoke count are key. There are many ways to make a stable wheel, I have one way other have anther way. Nothing wrong with CK hubs.

My post is meant to open up the discussion not to get slammed down as scaremongering. It is scaremongering to do that.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I never said that R45 hubs and archetype rims are a no no combination. I am also not scaremongering or trying to sugest that R45 hubs make bad wheels, as the rims a spoke selction as well as spoke count are key. There are many ways to make a stable wheel, I have one way other have anther way. Nothing wrong with CK hubs.

My post is meant to open up the discussion not to get slammed down as scaremongering. It is scaremongering to do that.

You are scaremongering... you are making it seem as if half a degree in bracing angle is the difference between life and death, which is bullxxit.
There are combinations which are best avoided, like wide flanges and deep section rims or narrow flanges and shallow rims, but even there... I ride a set of Mavic 501 hubs, which have the narrowest rear flange distance ever at 45 mm or so, paired with Ambrosio Crono, which are the shallowest rims ever and you know what? Those wheels just fly... 8)

on-yer-bike

Why do Chris King and DT Swiss and other Calvin Klein brands make hubs that are too narrow for anything other than the shallowest rim? Don't they know what they are doing?